London Euston Blockades August-September 2018

[aal7]

I understand from the BBC reporting that the blockades are to allow North Wembley junction to be relaid. Purely for interest, and in a non-complaining way, how much use does this junction normally get?

 

[najaB]

I understand from the BBC reporting that the blockades are to allow North Wembley junction to be relaid. Purely for interest, and in a non-complaining way, how much use does this junction normally get?

Average day, probably about 750 trains (while not all trains diverge at a junction, they all contribute to wear and tear).

 

[aal7]

Average day, probably about 750 trains (while not all trains diverge at a junction, they all contribute to wear and tear).

Thanks. I think I actually meant how many times are the points actually moved per normal day, but I take your point that ALL trains contribute to wear and tear.

 

[najaB]

Thanks. I think I actually meant how many times are the points actually moved per normal day, but I take your point that ALL trains contribute to wear and tear.

Very, very rough estimate using Realtime Trains... Of 750 (approx) trains crossing over the junction it looks like about 120 use the diverging route. So it stands to reason that the points are swung about 240 times a day.

This is all *very* rough though.

 

[The Planner]

I am told that they are on wooden bearers and are the last set of points on the WCML south to be so, so probably a priority to sort!

 

[hawk1911]

So, on the first weekend of the Euston closure, passengers from the North West and West Midlands are advised to use the Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone services which will, of course, be much busier than normal.

So what do London Transport do. Of course the close the underground service through Marylebone.

Thousands of extra passengers travelling into Marylebone and you close the underground service!!!!! You couldn't make it up.

 

[TheDavibob]

So, on the first weekend of the Euston closure, passengers from the North West and West Midlands are advised to use the Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone services which will, of course, be much busier than normal.

So what do London Transport do. Of course the close the underground service through Marylebone.

Thousands of extra passengers travelling into Marylebone and you close the underground service!!!!! You couldn't make it up.

In defense of TfL, the Bakerloo is closed for exactly the same reason as the Euston closure, ish. Presumably it's closed between Queen's Park and Harrow for the same reasons, and since it isn't particularly heavily used then it's an optimal time to do complete track works. Further, Marylebone's proximity to both Baker Street and Edgware Road, with an Out of Station Interchange to both, makes it not the greatest of losses, though it is a little unfortunate.

EDIT: Also, there's a possibility that closing the lines north of Queen's Park means there's enough Bakerloo stock stuck in the depot that a reasonably service south of Queen's Park can't actually run, but I might be very wrong here.

 

[aal7]

Very, very rough estimate using Realtime Trains... Of 750 (approx) trains crossing over the junction it looks like about 120 use the diverging route. So it stands to reason that the points are swung about 240 times a day.

This is all *very* rough though.

I had no idea it was so many. I had assumed it was a largely "unused" junction. Out of interest, could you share the URL of the RTT page you used so I can see how you made your estimate? I'd like to try something similar at other junctions. Many thanks.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

Further, Marylebone's proximity to both Baker Street and Edgware Road, with an Out of Station Interchange to both, makes it not the greatest of losses, though it is a little unfortunate.

I'm familiar with that area - just to forewarn anybody not, it's a bit of a walk from Marylebone to Baker Street Tube Station. It's certainly walkable (I've done it many times,) though I wouldn't relish the prospect dragging luggage - I'd guess it's about half a mile. I'm not sure what buses serve both, but doubtless TFL's web site will know.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

Are any of you guys "in the know" able to opine on why the BOR sidings at Euston got relaid on a new alignment, (apart from "it's something to do with HS2 works?")

 

[infobleep]

So when a Virgin train terminates at Tring (before we even think about the issues with dispatch, shunting arrangements, etc) at a station with no lifts, no real facilities such as a big car park at Hemel (for buses to park up in at least, as it is mostly double decked) or station facilities, how will it cope with the passenger numbers? (It struggles with a LNR train emptying passengers and that's just people that live in Tring!)

Okay we will send people from Hemel to St Albans, with Thameslink struggling to cope with its own passengers and a 2tph fast service on Saturdays under the contingency timetable.

And so on...

The idea is to get people using alternative train routes from further north. If the train goes to Tring they will go there then complain they have to get a bus. Rather if they get to Birmingham and are told 'Go to Moor Street' then they would have a better journey going via Chiltern.

Numbers of people travelling south of MK die off, as they either do not travel, or drive to another station. Getting people bussed all sorts of different places and all the contigency plans that have to be made up (okay what happens if they get to Edgware and the Northern line is suspended? Now you have to send people to another Tube line maybe. Who will deal with the extra crowds there? Where will the buses park up then without falling foul of the TfL regulations? Where will the coach drivers take their breaks if they had PNB facilities at Stanmore) when there is a network to take them to London via an alternative route with a change or two with already set up contingency plans, control rooms, staff, trains etc, is much more sensible when lots of people take the hint and avoid/reschedule their travel.

When the lines into Liverpool Street are closed, passengers are sent to one of the Central Line tube stations. Not sure what they do when the Central Line is suspended.

 

[edwin_m]

Are any of you guys "in the know" able to opine on why the BOR sidings at Euston got relaid on a new alignment, (apart from "it's something to do with HS2 works?")

The Backing Out Roads become a works siding to bring in materials for HS2 construction by rail. Something similar happens to Platform 17 when that part of the station closes.

 

[hawk1911]

Further, Marylebone's proximity to both Baker Street and Edgware Road, with an Out of Station Interchange to both, makes it not the greatest of losses, though it is a little unfortunate.

I'm familiar with that area - just to forewarn anybody not, it's a bit of a walk from Marylebone to Baker Street Tube Station. It's certainly walkable (I've done it many times,) though I wouldn't relish the prospect dragging luggage - I'd guess it's about half a mile. I'm not sure what buses serve both, but doubtless TFL's web site will know.

I'm also familiar with the area and, even when Marylebone tube is open, I sometimes prefer to walk to Baker Street, depending on where I am going.

The main problem, as I see it, is National Rail etc. directing people to use rail services to Marylebone and not pointing out that the tube is closed.

 

[Bald Rick]

I am told that they are on wooden bearers and are the last set of points on the WCML south to be so, so probably a priority to sort!

Not sure about that, I think there’s still some on hardwood around West London Jn. However I suspect it is the last set south of Rugby (possibly even south of Crewe) on timber on a 125mph stretch of line.

Not that there is anything wrong with hardwood bearers under S&C on 125mph lines. But concrete bearers started coming into much more regular use around 20 years ago, and have been more or less standard for renewals for well over a decade now (naturally, a few exceptions apply).

 

[najaB]

I had no idea it was so many. I had assumed it was a largely "unused" junction. Out of interest, could you share the URL of the RTT page you used so I can see how you made your estimate? I'd like to try something similar at other junctions. Many thanks.

A lot of junctions (all?) are timing points, so you can search for them and then use the later/earlier calling at to figure out how many trains are going each way. So, for example this is trains passing North Wembley Junction and calling at Wembley Central: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/08/17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Edit: Hmm... going to double-check my railway geography, I may have made a mistake here!

 

[Lozzy0603]

Can I ask another indirectly related one: was the junction between Up fast at Watford, and DC lines added so they could run diesel intercity trains to Euston via the DC lines? Has this facility ever been used?
(I understand they still wouldn't be able to get further south than Wembley on the DC in this case.)

 

[Bald Rick]

A lot of junctions (all?) are timing points, so you can search for them and then use the later/earlier calling at to figure out how many trains are going each way. So, for example this is trains passing North Wembley Junction and calling at Wembley Central: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/08/17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

That is trains that have both North Wembley Jn and Wembley Central as timing points, which is by no means all the trains through the junction. And it is not necessarily trains that use a diverging route, indeed very few of them on that list do.

As far as I know, the only way to check on RTT is to go through every train that has a North Wembley Jn timing point, and then check the line codes to see if they change after the junction.

In normal running, it is mostly used to get stuff in/out of Wembley Yard whenever there is a slow line block. There is also a short stretch of bidi on the Up Slow that enables a long / heavy / slow freight to be given the road north out of Wembley Yard on the Up Slow, whilst a faster service passes on the Down Slow. This sees quite a bit of use.

 

[najaB]

That is trains that have both North Wembley Jn and Wembley Central as timing points, which is by no means all the trains through the junction. And it is not necessarily trains that use a diverging route, indeed very few of them on that list do.

Yeah, I realised after posting that I had my junctions mixed up!

 

[Bald Rick]

A bit more info. What causes junctions to wear out such that they need complete replacement is not usually a function of how often the points are swung. It is a function of how much traffic goes over them, and how fast. When what’s under the bearers has deteriorated, the bearers will soon go, and then the junction has had it. Obviously to get to the formation underneath, and replace it properly, you need to dig it out, and that means taking everything on top of it out too.

Junctions that see the points swing often will see wear in the switch rails, crossings and points operating equipment (including stretcher bars etc), but this is all relatively quick and easy to replace.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can I ask another indirectly related one: was the junction between Up fast at Watford, and DC lines added so they could run diesel intercity trains to Euston via the DC lines? Has this facility ever been used?
(I understand they still wouldn't be able to get further south than Wembley on the DC in this case.)

There’s always been a connection between the D.C. lines and the Down Fast, this was used regularly to get the 313s up to Bletchley for maintenance. I’m reasonably sure it was used very occasionally for diversions; I seem to remember an HST on the DCs once. @ChiefPlanner can tell you all about such things (if they happened)

I’m not sure if there is now a connection from the UF - none of the usual sources suggest there is (Sectional Appendix, OTT, Google Maps)

 

[aal7]

A bit more info. What causes junctions to wear out such that they need complete replacement is not usually a function of how often the points are swung. It is a function of how much traffic goes over them, and how fast. When what’s under the bearers has deteriorated, the bearers will soon go, and then the junction has had it. Obviously to get to the formation underneath, and replace it properly, you need to dig it out, and that means taking everything on top of it out too.

Junctions that see the points swing often will see wear in the switch rails, crossings and points operating equipment (including stretcher bars etc), but this is all relatively quick and easy to replace.

That's very interesting. Thank you.

 

[jyte]

There was a discussion here recently about running HSTs on the DC lines. It has happened - there's even youtube videos of it.

 

[nlogax]

There was a discussion here recently about running HSTs on the DC lines. It has happened - there's even youtube videos of it.

Yep. Am sure this was posted here quite recently.

 

[jyte]

Thank you for finding the video! I couldn't find it. If I remember the details from that thread, it was done as a 'special' move, as HSTs are not cleared (and weren't at the time) to run on the Watford DC.

Also, that VHS audio glitch is a 'sick beat'.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There’s always been a connection between the D.C. lines and the Down Fast, this was used regularly to get the 313s up to Bletchley for maintenance. I’m reasonably sure it was used very occasionally for diversions; I seem to remember an HST on the DCs once. @ChiefPlanner can tell you all about such things (if they happened)

I’m not sure if there is now a connection from the UF - none of the usual sources suggest there is (Sectional Appendix, OTT, Google Maps)

There was a major remodelling of Harlesden Junction on the main line circa 1986 , and though most services terminated at Watford Junction - a handful of what were then key trains - the EUS- Holyhead and a few sleepers (the latter obviously diesel hauled) were sent by the Premier Line - the DC. Subject to 20 mph restrictions as no tripcocks fitted for south of Harrow ! , gauging OK , but such was the throw of 2m vehicles at Bushey that some concern was raised and it did not happen again. Not used in 1996 for example - bar a couple of van trains and light engines.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yep. Am sure this was posted here quite recently.

Superb!

 

[Class 170101]

When the lines into Liverpool Street are closed, passengers are sent to one of the Central Line tube stations. Not sure what they do when the Central Line is suspended.

Occasionally Upminster and District Line.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When the lines into Liverpool Street are closed, passengers are sent to one of the Central Line tube stations. Not sure what they do when the Central Line is suspended.

There is a regular series of meetings NR / TfL and affected TOC's to try and work these things out well in advance. Occasionally there are conflicts.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Funnily enough just done my normal "paternal" taxi service to Bushey - with 2 picks up enroute. As there is zilch from Bushey (not exactly Wick or Thurso) , the birthday celebrants in this case would normally have got the excellent fast AC service to and from Hipster Heaven Hoxton via public transport etc - have hired in taxis for the occassion (and back) ....

In passing - when returning , I witnessed some 142 buses - which I believe are Watford - Stanmore (double deck red ones) - crush loaded at 1800.....there goes the traffic shall we say. Some other locals may have discovered the joys of the normally empty Met Line from Watford.

 

[island]

The Met was suspended for a good amount of the morning between Moor Park and Watford owing to a shortage of controllers.