London commuter lines set to get new EMUs

[northwichcat]

Why? There'll be more than enough newer class 319s available for the amount of wiring available across the Northern franchise area in 2017/18.

All Northern have been given so far are 14 trains which will allow some existing services to convert to electric traction on Phase 1 & 2. albeit with an increase in capacity on those services. Further phases of the North West electrification are scheduled to be completed by December 2016. The Transpennine electrification is scheduled for completion for December 2018 will take trains to York and the potential to convert more services to electric traction.

Northern currently operates a fleet of roughly 150 diesel train sets, and whilst some would still be required to service none electrified lines, that means roughly a shortage of about 50 plus units assuming all 86 319 sets were sent north without taking into consideration further schemes that could be added on to the so far announced scheme. There is no guarantee that all the 319 sets will be sent to north and if Northern (or whoever holds the new franchise) has to refurbish them, they will need additional units to cover the diagrams as we know them now. If the NW electrification puts more bums on seats, as it is hoped, even more train sets will be required, so a use could be found for any available and serviceable units for many years to come.

At the moment the Thames Valley electrification business plan is still based on using 319s initially (mentioned in the Network Rail CP5 plans published last month.)

However, there will be enough 319s available eventually to use on all the newly electrified Northern services in the North West. Nothing official has ever said TPE services or newly electrified Northern services in Yorkshire will get 319s. 319s would not be suitable for Intercity style services, which Liverpool-Newcastle is one of.

If we need a cascade of EMUs for Northern services in Yorkshire then the most logical solution is for Northern to get 321s from either LM or Anglia.

The suggestion of Northern needing 1 EMU for every DMU in the fleet isn't sensible, as the majority of Northern diesel services won't be switching to electric before 2024 nevermind 2019.

 

[sprinterguy]

However, there will be enough 319s available eventually to use on all the newly electrified Northern services in the North West.

I know that it's well off topic, but it's something that I've been meaning to ask: Do we know how many units the North West electrification is likely to require? Would the 26 x 319/3s be sufficient to cover this?

 

[northwichcat]

I know that it's well off topic, but it's something that I've been meaning to ask: Do we know how many units the North West electrification is likely to require? Would the 26 x 319/3s be sufficient to cover this?

Well it'll depend on a few things:
1. Whether the 319s remain as 4 car or if they get reformed to 3 car to allow doubling up.
2. Whether service revisions go ahead e.g. it's been suggested that a Wigan-Bolton-Airport EMU service could operate with Southport-Atherton-Victoria services becoming half-hourly and a shuttle service between Wigan and Kirkby but consultation of those changes hasn't been taken. It's also been proposed the path used for Hazel Grove services could be better utilised for a service to Buxton, Chinley or Sheffield.
3. Whether the TPE service between Blackpool and Manchester Airport service is or isn't included as a route to get 319s.
4. How the timetable works. Availability of paths may mean it's not possible to run a 45 minute service using 2 x EMUs even though on paper it's possible to do that.
5. Whether 319s go on to routes already electrified.

 

[47802]

Well it'll depend on a few things:
1. Whether the 319s remain as 4 car or if they get reformed to 3 car to allow doubling up.
2. Whether service revisions go ahead e.g. it's been suggested that a Wigan-Bolton-Airport EMU service could operate with Southport-Atherton-Victoria services becoming half-hourly and a shuttle service between Wigan and Kirkby but consultation of those changes hasn't been taken. It's also been proposed the path used for Hazel Grove services could be better utilised for a service to Buxton, Chinley or Sheffield.
3. Whether the TPE service between Blackpool and Manchester Airport service is or isn't included as a route to get 319s.
4. How the timetable works. Availability of paths may mean it's not possible to run a 45 minute service using 2 x EMUs even though on paper it's possible to do that.
5. Whether 319s go on to routes already electrified.

Indeed there are a lot of unknowns at the moment I'm not sure its even worth speculating. and we don't even know if the split between northern and TPX services will remain the same on franchise renewal. I suspect for the TPX franchise and the Great Western franchise at least the bidders may be asked to consider options for new electric stock.

As for the new Tfl stock if it doesn't need to be compatible with the 378's then they may as well look to the next generation of units from Bombardier and the other manufacturers.

 

[Manchester77]

Perhaps 315s could be used on Thames Valley branches which will operate as shuttles once Crossrail has begun and they're electrified. While it wouldn't be ideal since they don't have toilets it wouldn't be such a concern since they'd only be on the train for a short distance?

 

[TEW]

I don't think there's much point maintaining a small fleet just for the Thames Valley branches, it would make much more sense just to use the same traction as for the rest of the Thames Valley. If you stretched the 315s to include running Reading-Basingstoke you'd need 5 units in service each day, which is a very small fleet.

 

[northwichcat]

The ITT details are now online:

The scope is expected to include:

(a) The design, manufacture, testing, commissioning and entry into passenger service of up to 280 new cars capable of operating on AC and/or DC voltage.

(b) The provision of long term maintenance and technical support services.

The initial requirement is for approximately 39 new 4 car units with a nominal length of 80 m, to be introduced from 2017. In addition to this initial requirement, the contract structure will include options to purchase a number of additional units and or cars to lengthen units.

The units must have a design life of 35 years.

Maintenance (including repairs, modifications, overhaul and refurbishment) and technical support (including daily preparation for service) for the new units is required up to the design life of the units however RfL will retain the right to terminate the agreement at an earlier date.

Maintenance (including repairs) and technical support (including daily preparation for service) for up to nine 2-car class 172 diesel units operating on the Gospel Oak-Barking line is also required for a period of approximately 18 months until all of the new electric units have been successfully entered into passenger service.

Estimated value excluding VAT Range: between 315 000 000 and 900 000 000 GBP

http://www.publictenders.net/node/2559296

No details about the trains requiring a minimum number of seats or maximum total capacity.

 

[Aictos]

If we need a cascade of EMUs for Northern services in Yorkshire then the most logical solution is for Northern to get 321s from either LM or Anglia.

Umm, haven't you forgotten about the 317s and 321s that FCC currently operate as the only trains on the GN will be Class 700s, Class 365s and Class 313s.

 

[northwichcat]

Umm, haven't you forgotten about the 317s and 321s that FCC currently operate as the only trains on the GN will be Class 700s, Class 365s and Class 313s.

I didn't know for certain what will be happening with the FCC 321s.

If it's 317s available then isn't the logical solution for Anglia to have those?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The ITT details are now online:
No details about the trains requiring a minimum number of seats or maximum total capacity.

Strictly that's an OJEU notice of future procurement.
The full ITT is to follow.
Have we seen reference to an outfit called "RfL" (Rail for London) before?

 

[Aictos]

I didn't know for certain what will be happening with the FCC 321s.

If it's 317s available then isn't the logical solution for Anglia to have those?

All the paperwork I've seen refer to Class 700s, 365s and 313s with no mention made of the Class 321s/317s so it's anyone's guess where they would go BUT as Northern already have 321s/322s surely the FCC 321s should go there and let the FCC 317s go to Anglia?

 

[jopsuk]

.
Have we seen reference to an outfit called "RfL" (Rail for London) before?

Yes, there's references to it on this forum from over a year ago. They're responsible for overseeing LO, Crossrail, Tramlink and DLR. Basically all "Rail" that isn't "London Underground"; that's contracted out to private operators.

 

[Electrostar]

I think it's called TfL London Rail. It used to have a dedicated brown roundel with the word RAIL on the crossbar (see below). The logo disappeared from the TfL website after the Overground brand was launched although it may still be used for business to business purposes. I read that it's a small department that, as Jopsuk states, concentrates on managing the private contractors for DLR and AirLine (Serco), Overground (LOROL) and Tramlink (First).

Page down for TfL logos from this TV forum:
http://www.tvforum.co.uk/tvhome/itv-discussion-thread-26337/page-335

 

[northwichcat]

Strictly that's an OJEU notice of future procurement.
The full ITT is to follow.

Ah that'll explain why some important details aren't included.

 

[swt_passenger]

'London Rail' as an organisation was around before TfL took over Silverlink Metro - I found a freight strategy report from 2007 which shows the author as Ian Brown, managing director of 'TfL London Rail'. Pretty low profile set of people it seems...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/microsites/freight/documents/rail-freight-strategy-aug-2007.pdf

 

[thealexweb]

In 2017 the class 315s will be 37 years old. Why talk of cascading them? The best place for them is a scrap yard.

Right now its unthinkable of a single carriage being scraped. The Mark 2 carriages on the Fife Circle route should probably be removed from mainline work but they are needed because of the DMU shortage.

 

[deltic08]

Who sanctioned the take over of more of our rail network by TfL and who is paying nearly £1billion for new trains whoever builds them? Has there been a franchise bid that I missed?

 

[swt_passenger]

Who sanctioned the take over of more of our rail network by TfL and who is paying nearly £1billion for new trains whoever builds them? Has there been a franchise bid that I missed?

TfL proposed that London Rail take over the WA inners, and SE Metro. DfT agreed with and sanctioned the former, but not the latter. TfL are paying. It wasn't done as a franchise bid.

Here's the BBC article from last July:

TfL will be responsible for some West Anglia routes from Liverpool Street station to Enfield Town and Chingford, in north London, and Cheshunt. The route includes 25 stations, with TfL taking over 23 of them, from around 2015. Liverpool Street and Chingford stations will remain the responsibility of Network Rail or Greater Anglia. TfL, which already runs mainline London Overground services, said changes will include improved reliability, security and better passenger information.
But plans to takeover Southeastern services are "unlikely to happen at the present time", TfL has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23144343