London commuter lines set to get new EMUs

[61653 HTAFC]

You can get off a bus and out of a car.

Stuck on a train, it's lucozade bottle time

If you get off your bus to answer a call of nature, you'll need to pay again when you get back on. On a train, your ticket will (in most cases) still be valid on the following service.

 

[cjmillsnun]

They also have no toilets. I'm not sure you could justify the cost of installing a disabled toilet in such old units. They're also in need of a good refurbishment generally. The best place for them is definitely the scrap yard. If any 317s are released though then it's a different matter, there's plenty of life left in the MK3 based EMUs.

Why the need to install a disabled toilet? They'll comply with no toilet.
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I can't see much potential use for 315s around London, so they're going to have to replace trains that currently have toilets. Can you imagine the headlines if you transfer 315s to Northern; 35-year old, toiletless, London hand-me-downs. I can't see using 315s to replace any train currently fitted with toilets as popular.

You had the same with the 313s going to SN for the coastway. It happened regardless.

 

[TEW]

Yes, but I don't think it was great that they moved 313s to Coastway services either. Moving 315s to Northern would be an unpopular move regardless of the toilet situation. There should be plenty of suitable EMU stock for Northern anyway in the shape of 319s. In my opinion 313/5s are easily the worst EMU stock in service at the moment, I don't see the appeal of transferring them to Northern. I'm not convinced that 315s are the right stock for the Valley Lines either, especially with it looking like Valley Lines electrification may now be delayed further.

 

[transmanche]

I'm not convinced that 315s are the right stock for the Valley Lines either, especially with it looking like Valley Lines electrification may now be delayed further.

The prospect of getting a few years worth of work out of some 'free' units might well help the case for getting the Valley Lines electrified earlier...

 

[Katada]

Haha I really do hope they don't get EMUs with a metro/high frequency layout. I remember the NLL units from the same generation as 315s and 317s had low frequency layouts but were replaced by 378 Capitalstars. I'm guessing the Overground will want to follow this again..

 

[badassunicorn]

I don't understand why lots of people seem to dislike 315's. They are good solid trains that perform well and are comfortable enough inside for metro work. They could do with tarting up inside sure, but thats not unique to just them. Working with both 315's and 317's, I'd choose a 315 any day, as 317's seem unreliable and unsuitable for a lot of the work they undertake. I'd personally rather keep 315's on GE/crossrail instead of new stock, as my disdain for Bombardier and their "trains" is great.

 

[Wavertreelad]

You can get off a bus and out of a car.

Stuck on a train, it's lucozade bottle time

Is this taking the p*ss?

 

[northwichcat]

In 2017 the class 315s will be 37 years old. Why talk of cascading them? The best place for them is a scrap yard.

The business case for Valley Lines electrification assumes 3 car 315s or similar would be used initially with new 4 car EMUs being ordered as replacement at a later date if demand increases.
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London Midland ordered the 350/2 with an extra optional set of units that originally was hoped to a follow order delivered in 2009/10. DfT dragged their heels but them became the 350/3 & /4 orders.

Their new product at that time as you put it was the Desiro UK as the Desiro City didn't launch until later.

LM did issue a new ITT for the 350/3s. When they initially issued it people wrongly assumed that LM 323s would go to Northern instead of Northern 323s going to LM as per the HLOS.

Here's the ITT: http://www.publictenders.net/tender/1132740
And the award: http://www.publictenders.net/tender/152063

 

[Class377/5]

LM did issue a new ITT for the 350/3s. When they initially issued it people wrongly assumed that LM 323s would go to Northern instead of Northern 323s going to LM as per the HLOS.

Here's the ITT: http://www.publictenders.net/tender/152063

You ignored this rather important part

there have been various changes to the original requirements. These include: (a) The inclusion of the Manchester/Scotland Units which were not mentioned in the original contract notice; (b) The London Midland Units having a different specification to the Manchester/Scotland Units; (c) The London Midland Units and the Manchester/Scotland Units having different lay-outs to the lay-out indicated in the contract notice, which indicated a minimum of 240 standard seats and 18 first class seats in a 4-car unit; (d) The operation of the Manchester/Scotland Units on inter-city services (not on a combination of both inner and outer commuting services, as indicated in the contract notice); (e) The delay to the programme for closing the procurement; (f) The delay to the programme for introduction into passenger revenue earning service of the Manchester/Scotland Units (which will be delivered no earlier than December 2013 and London Midland Units (which will be delivered no earlier than April 2014) as opposed to from May 2011 as set out in the contract notice

Its changing the terms of the original tender, not starting from the beginning again so what I stated is correct.

 

[northwichcat]

You ignored this rather important part

Its changing the terms of the original tender, not starting from the beginning again so what I stated is correct.

You said

London Midland ordered the 350/2 with an extra optional set of units that originally was hoped to a follow order delivered in 2009/10.

Which implied it was the same tender as the 350/2s when it was in fact a new tender issued in April 2009 after Scotrail had placed an order for 380s.

 

[transmanche]

I don't understand why lots of people seem to dislike 315's. They are good solid trains that perform well and are comfortable enough inside for metro work. They could do with tarting up inside sure, but thats not unique to just them.

Indeed, one only has to look at SWT's 455s to see how that can be done.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'd personally rather keep 315's on GE/crossrail instead of new stock, as my disdain for Bombardier and their "trains" is great.

Didn't Bombardier carry out the "refurbishment" of the 315s in the mid 2000s anyway? It's fine for people to carry brand preferences, but wishing to retain 35-year old units (nearly 40 by the opening of crossrail to the GE side) that only have 70% of the capacity and no air conditioning seems a bit excessive to me!

 

[sprinterguy]

The 315's to Northern, to strengthen services and totally eliminate any remaining 142's?

Why? There'll be more than enough newer class 319s available for the amount of wiring available across the Northern franchise area in 2017/18.

 

[Class377/5]

Which implied it was the same tender as the 350/2s when it was in fact a new tender issued in April 2009 after Scotrail had placed an order for 380s.

It was still linked to the original with changes attached so my original statement was correct. Your lack of reply to any point I've made I take as acceptance of proof of your error. Thanks.

 

[Chris125]

Whilst I'm sure that Bombardier would love to pitch their Aventra II; the fact that they're (currently?) building a 57 additional Class 378 carriages, to extend trains to 5-car, suggests that they're capable of building 378s. That gives them economies of scale, plus the advantage to LOROL that it makes driver training and maintenance easier by having a common fleet.

As I've mentioned before it's hard to see the 378 design being compliant with current regs, especially the cabs, as Southern had to settle for a hybrid using the 379 body - as for Bombardier, I'm sure they'd prefer to offer a fleet of Aventras which could be maintained at Ilford alongside those for Crossrail.

Chris

 

[northwichcat]

It was still linked to the original with changes attached so my original statement was correct.

You said

London Midland ordered the 350/2 with an extra optional set of units that originally was hoped to a follow order delivered in 2009/10. DfT dragged their heels but them became the 350/3 & /4 orders.

The original ITT was a new ITT for 40 to 120 EMU vehicles in 3 or 4 car unit formations to be in service by 2011 which bidders were invited to bid on after the 350/2s had been delivered.

If there was an add-on option for more 350/2s then it wasn't taken up and so is completely irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your lack of reply to any point I've made I take as acceptance of proof of your error. Thanks.

I'm not sure whether you're posting things like that to try and increase your post count or just because you like arguing.

Anyway when the ITT for the new EMUs mentioned in the original post becomes public we'll see if there's anything it in which implies that more 378s would be a preferred option.

 

[TheGrew]

as for Bombardier, I'm sure they'd prefer to offer a fleet of Aventras which could be maintained at Ilford alongside those for Crossrail.

Chris

I'd forgotten about crossrail, perhaps a 345 subclass then?

 

[Fincra5]

All this talk of trains without toilets.. we can run a 377 with no working toilets.. Then you are in the same boat as a 313.

 

[Aictos]

All this talk of trains without toilets.. we can run a 377 with no working toilets.. Then you are in the same boat as a 313.

Thank you, FCC can run 317s/321s/365s without toilets too and you're in the same boat as the humble 313.

 

[jopsuk]

By the time these are delivered won't the 378 fleet be 5-car throughout? So having 4-car 378s wouldn't be that much of advantage.
Meanwhile the Crossrail Aventra will be about 22.22m cars (if it is 200m 9 car formations). We don't have the ITT yet, but by "four car" I imagine they'll be specifying 80m as a direct replacement for 315s. Longer may require platform extensions?

Due to the proximity (and even connectivity) of these lines it isn't that silly to suggest that these could easily be an independent fleet.

 

[HSTEd]

In 2017 the class 315s will be 37 years old. Why talk of cascading them? The best place for them is a scrap yard.

Because we have areas desperately in need of more, indeed any, rolling stock.
These trains still move and I daresay htey will have superior performance to a Pacer so will be able to keep to time on many of Northern's under wire routes.

Scrapping them is wasteful when this is possibly the only way the North could ever justify 8-car workings with any regularity.

 

[transmanche]

By the time these are delivered won't the 378 fleet be 5-car throughout? So having 4-car 378s wouldn't be that much of advantage.

It's no different to now, when there are DC-only and dual-voltage sets.

The advantage is not having to train drivers on two types of unit, not having to train maintenance staff on two types of unit, not having to keep stocks of two types of spares - and so on.

 

[TEW]

If the GOBLIN and West Anglia orders are placed together, as it looks like they will be 378s would seem likely. GOBLIN units will presumably be based at Willesden depot and I presume the drivers already sign 378s, so extra 378s would be the simplest operationally. For the West Anglia units they won't use the same drivers as the rest of the network, and I'm guessing won't use the same depot, so there is no real benefit to having 378s. If there is just one order placed for the whole new fleet though 378s seems most likely.

 

[transmanche]

For the West Anglia units they won't use the same drivers as the rest of the network, and I'm guessing won't use the same depot, so there is no real benefit to having 378s.

I'd say there's a distinct benefit in a company only needing one training course rather than two.

 

[badassunicorn]

A lot of current WA drivers sign 379's, which surely are not hugely different to 378's, so I'm sure only a quick conversion course would be needed anyway, rather then learning a whole new type of traction.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Why? There'll be more than enough newer class 319s available for the amount of wiring available across the Northern franchise area in 2017/18.

All Northern have been given so far are 14 trains which will allow some existing services to convert to electric traction on Phase 1 & 2. albeit with an increase in capacity on those services. Further phases of the North West electrification are scheduled to be completed by December 2016. The Transpennine electrification is scheduled for completion for December 2018 will take trains to York and the potential to convert more services to electric traction.

Northern currently operates a fleet of roughly 150 diesel train sets, and whilst some would still be required to service none electrified lines, that means roughly a shortage of about 50 plus units assuming all 86 319 sets were sent north without taking into consideration further schemes that could be added on to the so far announced scheme. There is no guarantee that all the 319 sets will be sent to north and if Northern (or whoever holds the new franchise) has to refurbish them, they will need additional units to cover the diagrams as we know them now. If the NW electrification puts more bums on seats, as it is hoped, even more train sets will be required, so a use could be found for any available and serviceable units for many years to come.

 

[petersi]

Northern currently operates a fleet of roughly 150 diesel train sets, and whilst some would still be required to service none electrified lines, that means roughly a shortage of about 50 plus units assuming all 86 319 sets were sent north without taking into consideration further schemes that could be added on to the so far announced scheme. There is no guarantee that all the 319 sets will be sent to north and if Northern (or whoever holds the new franchise) has to refurbish them, they will need additional units to cover the diagrams as we know them now. If the NW electrification puts more bums on seats, as it is hoped, even more train sets will be required, so a use could be found for any available and serviceable units for many years to come.

the Thameslink project will also free up 25 317 and 321 from the great northern route

Not sure there are any plans for them



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[Class 170101]

There might not be any plans for the 317s and 321s that we know of yet but I would suggest 317s for West Anglia and 321s for the Great Eastern to strengthen up the remaining 8 car trains to 12 carriages. It should also be pointed out that the older these fleets get the less reliable they tend to become so more spare units may be needed to maintain the service. It would also make each of the 317s and 321s (almost) based on one route for maintenance purposes.

 

[samuelmorris]

Age-related reliability issues with those fleets should hopefully be mitigated by the refurbishment plans, assuming they go ahead for the rest of the 317 fleet, and not just the /7s.

 

[sprinterguy]

All Northern have been given so far are 14 trains which will allow some existing services to convert to electric traction on Phase 1 & 2. albeit with an increase in capacity on those services. Further phases of the North West electrification are scheduled to be completed by December 2016. The Transpennine electrification is scheduled for completion for December 2018 will take trains to York and the potential to convert more services to electric traction.

Northern currently operates a fleet of roughly 150 diesel train sets, and whilst some would still be required to service none electrified lines, that means roughly a shortage of about 50 plus units assuming all 86 319 sets were sent north without taking into consideration further schemes that could be added on to the so far announced scheme. There is no guarantee that all the 319 sets will be sent to north and if Northern (or whoever holds the new franchise) has to refurbish them, they will need additional units to cover the diagrams as we know them now. If the NW electrification puts more bums on seats, as it is hoped, even more train sets will be required, so a use could be found for any available and serviceable units for many years to come.

Even following Transpennine electrification, which is roughly when the West Anglia 315s will be replaced, there won't be nearly enough local Northern services fully electrified to require the whole of the 319 fleet. There's no guarantee of all the 319s going to Northern, and there's no need for all of the 319s to go to Northern, unless they were also used to stock the TPE North electrification (very unlikely) and replace all of Northern's 323s (quite unlikely). There's no chance of 86 trains falling short of Northern's requirement for electric traction.