London commuter lines set to get new EMUs

[northwichcat]

Transport for London announced on April 9 that it would be inviting expressions of interest in a contract to supply electric multiple-units to operate routes that are to be transferred to its London Overground network in 2015. New rolling stock will also be required following electrification of London Overground’s diesel-worked Gospel Oak – Barking route.

TfL says that the base order will be for 39 four-car EMUs, 30 of which will be deployed on the routes from London Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford. These routes are currently operated by Greater Anglia, but are due to transfer on May 31 2015 to TfL, which hopes to introduce the new fleet between mid-2017 and the end of 2018.

Also transferring to TfL will be the short Romford – Upminster route, for which one trainset will be required to operate a shuttle service. Following completion of electrification by Network Rail in 2017, Gospel Oak – Barking will be operated with a fleet of eight four-car EMUs.

‘We are inviting train manufacturers worldwide to do business with us’, said TfL Director of Rail Jonathan Fox. ‘Our customers have already seen huge improvements to the existing London Overground network and we will be bringing that same expertise and those high standards to a wider group of passengers and regular London commuters’.

‘Ordering new trains for the Gospel Oak - Barking line and West Anglia route together, as well as including a provision to order more trains should passenger demand warrant additional capacity, ensures that we get best value for money for taxpayers’, he added.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Which EMUs would be freed up by the new order and where will they go?

 

[bramling]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Which EMUs would be freed up by the new order and where will they go?

The order would free up a quantity of 315s used on the West Anglia inner-suburban services out of Liverpool Street, possibly also a small number of 317s as I'm sure these work some inner services.

On top of the 315s freed from the Shenfield service as a result of Crossrail, this should release most or all of the class 315 fleet. Whether they see further use elesehere remains to be seen.

 

[TEW]

The Chingford services are roughly 50/50 between 315s and 317s, the Cheshunt and Enfield Town services are 315s. The Romford-Upminster branch produced anything from a 315, 317 or 321. Along with Crossrail this order should allow all the 315s to be released. Possibly some 317s could be released, it depends it Greater Anglia would like to retain some for strengthening of Cambridge/Hertford East services.

 

[Olaf]

TfL Article:
http://origin.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29942.aspx

 

[TheGrew]

Anyone think it would be anything other than more 378s?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[klewer]

Would it not make sense to convert the Romford-Upminster line to 4th rail and run it as a branch of the District Line? Obviously a big job but probably better operationally in the long term?

 

[Haydn1971]

Yay ! More hand me downs from London !

 

[northwichcat]

Anyone think it would be anything other than more 378s?

The ITT might give a clue. When LM really wanted more 350s they put in the ITT they wanted compatibility with existing EMUs in the LM fleet. Without that Siemens would have offered their latest product and other bidders would have had a better chance of being considered.

 

[WatcherZero]

To be fair though, Transport Scotland tried that saying they wanted a tried and tested design rather than a new product (350's being their prefered stock) and ended up with the 380's.

 

[jopsuk]

In 2017 the class 315s will be 37 years old. Why talk of cascading them? The best place for them is a scrap yard.

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyone think it would be anything other than more 378s?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Why would it necessarily be more 378s? There's no hint that tye need to be compatible with the existing LO fleet. Aren't they an obsolete design now, anyway?

 

[samuelmorris]

Aha yes, I guessed 30 units would be needed for the West Anglia routes (it might have been printed somewhere before, but I don't remember reading any numbers) and 30 it was. Feel pleased with myself about that

Have Bombardier released a successor to the Capitalstar yet? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the design being used elsewhere prior to the first 378s, which only arrived about 5 years ago. By contrast the original 375/377 design lasted all the way up to the 377/5 with minor modification, almost 10 years after the first 375s. Unless there's a new product already fit for these lines, I imagine they'll be using 378s. TfL are pretty committed to Bombardier at the moment, common stock on the Overground will have at least some benefit, and they're certainly not going to be funding a new design for this size of order I wouldn't think.

Judging by the timetable, I note the withdrawal of 315s from the GE side and WA side will be happening at exactly the same time. Makes sense to me.

While I imagine all the 315s will either get cascaded or scrapped, I'd hope the 317s that come off the WA metro routes would be utilised to somehow bolster the mainline services on the WA side. I realise the 379s were used for that, but my understanding is that there would still be a benefit to having more units there. While they're at it, run them through a comprehensive refurbishment - saves them going to waste.

 

[transmanche]

Why would it necessarily be more 378s? There's no hint that tye need to be compatible with the existing LO fleet. Aren't they an obsolete design now, anyway?

Whilst I'm sure that Bombardier would love to pitch their Aventra II; the fact that they're (currently?) building a 57 additional Class 378 carriages, to extend trains to 5-car, suggests that they're capable of building 378s. That gives them economies of scale, plus the advantage to LOROL that it makes driver training and maintenance easier by having a common fleet.

However, if they go for more 378s; I'd expect them to include some transverse seating for the longer journeys (a la S Stock).

 

[jopsuk]

if 317s are to be used to bolster the WA services, it'll either take someone other than Abellio running the franchise or regulator (ie government) pressure, as it is the current franchisee that put the 317/7 fleet into storage.

 

[badassunicorn]

Absolutely nothing wrong with 315's, despite their age! They are very reliable and great at what they are used for. I never knew the Rom-Upm was going over to crossrail, we all thought it would either stay with aGA or become part of crossrail. Where would the one unit for it be based?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, the 317/7's are being refurbed for re-entry to service.

 

[TEW]

In 2017 the class 315s will be 37 years old. Why talk of cascading them? The best place for them is a scrap yard.

They also have no toilets. I'm not sure you could justify the cost of installing a disabled toilet in such old units. They're also in need of a good refurbishment generally. The best place for them is definitely the scrap yard. If any 317s are released though then it's a different matter, there's plenty of life left in the MK3 based EMUs.

 

[Class377/5]

The ITT might give a clue. When LM really wanted more 350s they put in the ITT they wanted compatibility with existing EMUs in the LM fleet. Without that Siemens would have offered their latest product and other bidders would have had a better chance of being considered.

London Midland ordered the 350/2 with an extra optional set of units that originally was hoped to a follow order delivered in 2009/10. DfT dragged their heels but them became the 350/3 & /4 orders.

Their new product at that time as you put it was the Desiro UK as the Desiro City didn't launch until later.

To be fair though, Transport Scotland tried that saying they wanted a tried and tested design rather than a new product (350's being their prefered stock) and ended up with the 380's.

They didn't get a half way house, which was the most Siemens could offer.

 

[al.currie93]

In 2017 the class 315s will be 37 years old. Why talk of cascading them? The best place for them is a scrap yard.

Absolutely nothing wrong with 315's, despite their age! They are very reliable and great at what they are used for.

How old they are should not determine weather they are scrapped in my opinion. While new trains are nice, if the second of these quotes is correct (I don't have much experience with 315s but when I have used them they have done their job just as well as anything else I've used) and they do their job reliably and well, then they really shouldn't be scrapped, and South West Trains' class 455s are testament to how an old train can be made to look new. If she ain't broke, "wychanger" :P

 

[transmanche]

They also have no toilets. I'm not sure you could justify the cost of installing a disabled toilet in such old units.

There's no need to install any toilets, if they're used on relatively short journeys.

Whilst they're certainly well past their youthful days, EMUs last longer then DMUs. There are plenty of examples of EMUs lasting well into their 40s and even 50s (e.g. LU A stock). So whilst not suitable for a long-term cascade, they're perfect for newly electrified routes to help determine how many new trains will be needed following the 'sparks effect'. (Plus of course, being cheap, they help the business case to get electrification in the first place.)

 

[Manchester77]

Have Bombardier released a successor to the Capitalstar yet? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the design being used elsewhere prior to the first 378s, which only arrived about 5 years ago. By contrast the original 375/377 design lasted all the way up to the 377/5 with minor modification, almost 10 years after the first 375s. Unless there's a new product already fit for these lines, I imagine they'll be using 378s. TfL are pretty committed to Bombardier at the moment, common stock on the Overground will have at least some benefit, and they're certainly not going to be funding a new design for this size of order I wouldn't think.

The 'capitalstar' is a nickname given to the 378s because they're part of the electrostar and operate exclusively in the capital and so the electro part was replaced with capital. The 378s are based on the 376 variation of the electrostar family which has been succeeded by the aventra family. TfL can't just go to bombardier and ask for some new trains, they have to put it out to tender which means any bidder could be chosen (however there are ways to get round it as the DfT did with the 377/6 order). I'm guessing the trains will be of the aventra family since bombardier really want to get more orders in for their new product. There is the chance that bombardier won't bid since the units will be needed around the same time as the Crossrail 345s and derby might not have the capacity to do both orders at the same time.

 

[samuelmorris]

Transverse seating is a possibility, and one I would welcome, but with the longest journeys for this fleet being sub-40 minutes even with the current stock, I wouldn't bank on it, they could certainly manage without it - the Met services are longer, even when taken from Baker Street.

The Emerson Park line going over to TfL was not something I knew until today, but it makes sense. I'd expect it to be branded Overground rather than Crossrail though. Otherwise passengers face the potential confusion of boarding a crossrail train at Romford that doesn't follow the line!

The 317/7s may be being refurbished, but I was commenting about the rest of the 317 fleet to join them. One would hope they've seen a need to use them now, but who knows...

Interesting point about the capacity issue - however, Siemens have similar concerns about capacity during that time when they withdrew from the Crossrail contract as the times overlapped. That said, we're only talking 156 coaches here, versus the 585 for Crossrail. Who would that leave if both of them cited capacity issues?

 

[Wavertreelad]

The 315's to Northern, to strengthen services and totally eliminate any remaining 142's?

 

[Manchester77]

Hitachi, CAF, Alstom

 

[TEW]

There's no need to install any toilets, if they're used on relatively short journeys.

Whilst they're certainly well past their youthful days, EMUs last longer then DMUs. There are plenty of examples of EMUs lasting well into their 40s and even 50s (e.g. LU A stock). So whilst not suitable for a long-term cascade, they're perfect for newly electrified routes to help determine how many new trains will be needed following the 'sparks effect'. (Plus of course, being cheap, they help the business case to get electrification in the first place.)

I can't see much potential use for 315s around London, so they're going to have to replace trains that currently have toilets. Can you imagine the headlines if you transfer 315s to Northern; 35-year old, toiletless, London hand-me-downs. I can't see using 315s to replace any train currently fitted with toilets as popular.

 

[VauxhallandI]

317's are far from reliable

 

[bicbasher]

Romford to Upminster is going to LOROL with Emerson Park under their management. One new EMU unit will be required for this line as part of the order.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I can't see much potential use for 315s around London, so they're going to have to replace trains that currently have toilets. Can you imagine the headlines if you transfer 315s to Northern; 35-year old, toiletless, London hand-me-downs. I can't see using 315s to replace any train currently fitted with toilets as popular.

It might keep the critics happy, but by the same process, imagine the other headline "electric trains sent to scrap yard because of no toilets, whilst Northern passengers continue to suffer overcrowded commuter trains?"

Frankly I can't see the problem. A passenger boarding any bus for example faces a journey on some local services in Liverpool of an hour to the terminus, and even longer if you look at Chester, Southport or Warrington with more expensive fares. As far as I am aware none of the bus operators have vehicles equipped with toilets for these routes so why should the railway on relatively short distances. Equally if you drive from Liverpool to Manchester Airport on paper it takes about 35 minutes which is mainly motorway, but in the peak can be considerably longer, so you go before you start the journey.

 

[Hophead]

I can't see much potential use for 315s around London, so they're going to have to replace trains that currently have toilets. Can you imagine the headlines if you transfer 315s to Northern; 35-year old, toiletless, London hand-me-downs. I can't see using 315s to replace any train currently fitted with toilets as popular.

I don't need to imagine the headlines - I've already seen them.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It might keep the critics happy, but by the same process, imagine the other headline "electric trains sent to scrap yard because of no toilets, whilst Northern passengers continue to suffer overcrowded commuter trains?"

Frankly I can't see the problem. A passenger boarding any bus for example faces a journey on some local services in Liverpool of an hour to the terminus, and even longer if you look at Chester, Southport or Warrington with more expensive fares. As far as I am aware none of the bus operators have vehicles equipped with toilets for these routes so why should the railway on relatively short distances. Equally if you drive from Liverpool to Manchester Airport on paper it takes about 35 minutes which is mainly motorway, but in the peak can be considerably longer, so you go before you start the journey.

You can get off a bus and out of a car.

Stuck on a train, it's lucozade bottle time

 

[transmanche]

You can get off a bus and out of a car.

Stuck on a train, it's lucozade bottle time

No one's suggested that they'd be used on long-distance routes with long gaps between stations. They're suitable for metro/suburban routes. So if you're caught short, you get off at the next station... much as you would get of the bus at the next stop.