London buses, how do they know how long your journey was (Hopper)?

[Howardh]

Thinking of making one single bus journey in London tomorrow - I know you only tap in on buses (not out as in the tube) so how do they know the time of the journey and the amount to pay?

From the TFL site....

Pay as you go at adult rate on buses and trams and our Hopper fare gives you unlimited journeys for £1.50, made within one hour of touching in. Hopper fare also applies to discounted rate travel.
Touch in using the same card or device on all journeys and you get our Hopper fare automatically.

So if you don't tap out how do they know the journey hasn't taken over an hour (I assume some buses do take longer from end to end?)?

Thanks!

 

[matt_world2004]

Thinking of making one single bus journey in London tomorrow - I know you only tap in on buses (not out as in the tube) so how do they know the time of the journey and the amount to pay?

From the TFL site....



So if you don't tap out how do they know the journey hasn't taken over an hour (I assume some buses do take longer from end to end?)?

Thanks!

Even if the journey is the over an hour your tap in will still count, it's only transfering buses that needs to happen within the hour (70 mins actually) so you could get on one bus and transfer to another bus 59 mins later and travel on the second bus for two hours for £1.50

 

[Howardh]

Even if the journey is the over an hour your tap in will still count, it's only transfering buses that needs to happen within the hour (70 mins actually) so you could get on one bus and transfer to another bus 59 mins later and travel on the second bus for two hours for £1.50

Thanks - that's quite a bargain (although it's also an expensive £1.50 for two stops!!)!
So if I get a bus from Euston to Camden at 3pm and get one back before 4.10 the price for both will be £1.50?

 

[matt_world2004]

Thanks - that's quite a bargain (although it's also an expensive £1.50 for two stops!!)!
So if I get a bus from Euston to Camden at 3pm and get one back before 4.10 the price for both will be £1.50?

Yes. You will need to tap in on every bus but any journey within the 70 minutes after the first tap in will be free.

 

[WideRanger]

Thanks - that's quite a bargain (although it's also an expensive £1.50 for two stops!!)!
So if I get a bus from Euston to Camden at 3pm and get one back before 4.10 the price for both will be £1.50?

If I remember correctly, I think the second bus has to be on a different route to the first.

Of course, it's worth remembering that some parts of what we think of as Camden are around 10 minutes walk from Euston, so do compare realistic bus times to walking times, unless going by bus is important to you.

 

[matt_world2004]

If I remember correctly, I think the second bus has to be on a different route to the first.

Of course, it's worth remembering that some parts of what we think of as Camden are around 10 minutes walk from Euston, so do compare realistic bus times to walking times, unless going by bus is important to you.

No you can get on the same bus , again this is because sometimes buses stop early and people don't pick up transfer tickets.

 

[Howardh]

If I remember correctly, I think the second bus has to be on a different route to the first.

Of course, it's worth remembering that some parts of what we think of as Camden are around 10 minutes walk from Euston, so do compare realistic bus times to walking times, unless going by bus is important to you.

A bus ride's part of the day out! Normally I'd walk quite happily, but if it's cold and wet then the bus will do nicely! Think they are every 5 - 10 mins from the side of Euston, pretty much opposite the pub?
I have also picked up a swollen knee from hockey last Saturday which is still a bit sore....

 

[philthetube]

Thanks - that's quite a bargain (although it's also an expensive £1.50 for two stops!!)!
So if I get a bus from Euston to Camden at 3pm and get one back before 4.10 the price for both will be £1.50?

not many two stop journeys available for less than £1.50

 

[175mph]

A bus ride's part of the day out! Normally I'd walk quite happily, but if it's cold and wet then the bus will do nicely! Think they are every 5 - 10 mins from the side of Euston, pretty much opposite the pub?
I have also picked up a swollen knee from hockey last Saturday which is still a bit sore....

The bus can also be useful short distance when I've done leg presses at the gym.

 

[Ianno87]

Thanks - that's quite a bargain (although it's also an expensive £1.50 for two stops!!)!
So if I get a bus from Euston to Camden at 3pm and get one back before 4.10 the price for both will be £1.50?

To demonstrate the point, the video below shows how to get from Orpington to a Heathrow on a Hopper Fare for £1.50.

Basically as long as the X26 is touched in on in Croydon within 70 minutes of the first touch on in Orpington, you can sit on the X26 as long as you like:

 

[scotrail158713]

not many two stop journeys available for less than £1.50

Although I don’t know many people who would pay for a two stop journey anyway

 

[Howardh]

Yes I've seen that but not being a Laanderer it wasn't fully comprehended!

 

[jumble]

Thanks - that's quite a bargain (although it's also an expensive £1.50 for two stops!!)!
So if I get a bus from Euston to Camden at 3pm and get one back before 4.10 the price for both will be £1.50?

Being pedantic This assumes the clocks on both the busses are exactly synchronised !

 

[Howardh]

OK - a quick report; caught a bus towards Hampstead from Euston and two stops later decided it was quicker to get off and walk!!

 

[Robertj21a]

OK - a quick report; caught a bus towards Hampstead from Euston and two stops later decided it was quicker to get off and walk!!

That's not at all unusual, virtually anywhere in central London.

 

[matt_world2004]

Being pedantic This assumes the clocks on both the busses are exactly synchronised !

It uses GPS and 3g to synchronise the clocks on the ticket machine bus clocks are going to be within a fraction of a second of each other

 

[Howardh]

That's not at all unusual, virtually anywhere in central London.

Frankly I wonder why anyone would even bother to drive in London; you pay £?? to be in congestion all day? Bizarre.

 

[matt_world2004]

Frankly I wonder why anyone would even bother to drive in London; you pay £?? to be in congestion all day? Bizarre.

Very few people do, unless they have no choice because of their job;the majority of vehicles going down Oxford Street are either Uber , black cabs, buses or other commercial /utility/emergency vehicles the average bus speed in London is 9mph.

 

[PeterC]

Frankly I wonder why anyone would even bother to drive in London; you pay £?? to be in congestion all day? Bizarre.

Depending on a variety of location and time factors it can still be much easier than railheading. I'll put up with the traffic at 6pm for a fast drive home without the need to pay for a cab at midnight.

 

[radamfi]

Frankly I wonder why anyone would even bother to drive in London; you pay £?? to be in congestion all day? Bizarre.

It depends which part of London. In Outer London, public transport mode share is only about a quarter, with car at roughly 45%.

 

[ChrisC]

Thanks - that's quite a bargain (although it's also an expensive £1.50 for two stops!!)!
So if I get a bus from Euston to Camden at 3pm and get one back before 4.10 the price for both will be £1.50?

Living as I do in in rural Nottinghamshire, I am always amazed when visiting London just how inexpensive bus travel is.
I don’t think that there are any fares much under £2 on my local route. Just for the 2 minute journey to the next village it is £2, and £3 for the 6 minute journey to the village beyond that. To travel the journey of just over a mile in the opposite direction to the nearby town, the 5 minute journey is £2.40.
These high fares have to be paid in both directions with no reductions for two journeys within an hour or even within the same day. Fortunately, I am still reasonably fit able to walk and usually do.

This, of course, is the situation most people face in rural areas. It is not much of an incentive to use the buses and most people use their cars or walk instead. During the main part of the day buses are mainly now used by those with concessionary passes.

 

[Howardh]

Living as I do in in rural Nottinghamshire, I am always amazed when visiting London just how inexpensive bus travel is.
I don’t think that there are any fares much under £2 on my local route. Just for the 2 minute journey to the next village it is £2, and £3 for the 6 minute journey to the village beyond that. To travel the journey of just over a mile in the opposite direction to the nearby town, the 5 minute journey is £2.40.
These high fares have to be paid in both directions with no reductions for two journeys within an hour or even within the same day. Fortunately, I am still reasonably fit able to walk and usually do.

This, of course, is the situation most people face in rural areas. It is not much of an incentive to use the buses and most people use their cars or walk instead. During the main part of the day buses are mainly now used by those with concessionary passes.

I live on the edge-ish of town and 2 miles on the bus costs £2.70. However these days there are cheaper mobile tickets around, so I can get that down to £2 or mulit-trip for £4.50; and of course just like the travelcard there are Greater Manchester combinations of rail/tram/bus which helps.
But for single use buses are very expensive, a taxi can do you door-to-door for around a fiver for two miles. Or my own car of course!!

ADDS London has the "benefit" of congestion charges which we don't and I suppose that goes on providing cheap and plentiful public transport. We, in Manchester, voted that down so have to put up with a third rate local transport system which simply can't cope. That's the problem with giving people the vote..... ;-D

 

[Howardh]

Just looked it up, and that short bus journey + a tube ride from Camden to Euston cost £3.90 which is pretty steep!

 

[Snow1964]

London has a bonkers fare system, per TfL finance reports (in Board reports on TfL website) average bus fare is about 74p
It is £1.50 single, but can make make multiple journeys within hour (actually bit longer to avoid quibbles over bus being minute late) so average is about half, and of course some categories are free.

But London buses loses nearly £2m per day, and it is only because of Labour Mayor Khan's policies that he allows that level of subsidy

For some reason it appears bus ridership has crashed in last few weeks, so probably loosing even more now
It is on page 24 of this TfL Finance Committee report (but no explanations yet).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/finance-committee-20191218-public-agenda-documents.pdf

 

[matt_world2004]

London has a bonkers fare system, per TfL finance reports (in Board reports on TfL website) average bus fare is about 74p
It is £1.50 single, but can make make multiple journeys within hour (actually bit longer to avoid quibbles over bus being minute late) so average is about half, and of course some categories are free.

But London buses loses nearly £2m per day, and it is only because of Labour Mayor Khan's policies that he allows that level of subsidy

For some reason it appears bus ridership has crashed in last few weeks, so probably loosing even more now
It is on page 24 of this TfL Finance Committee report (but no explanations yet).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/finance-committee-20191218-public-agenda-documents.pdf

Bus subsidy was even larger under BoJo

 

[edwin_m]

London has a bonkers fare system, per TfL finance reports (in Board reports on TfL website) average bus fare is about 74p
It is £1.50 single, but can make make multiple journeys within hour (actually bit longer to avoid quibbles over bus being minute late) so average is about half, and of course some categories are free.

But London buses loses nearly £2m per day, and it is only because of Labour Mayor Khan's policies that he allows that level of subsidy

For some reason it appears bus ridership has crashed in last few weeks, so probably loosing even more now
It is on page 24 of this TfL Finance Committee report (but no explanations yet).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/finance-committee-20191218-public-agenda-documents.pdf

Adding more buses and subsidizing them enough that people use them is a much quicker (and probably cheaper) way to increase the capacity of public transport than building a new tube line. On the introduction of the congestion charge a lot of the money was put into buses, which could get around faster with less traffic, and provide extra seats for people who would otherwise have driven. This would be impossible anywhere else in Great Britain because with very limited exceptions the buses are operated commercially so have to charge a fare that covers cost and profit, and most forms of subsidy or more integration between operators would fall foul of competition law.

Unfortunately in recent years this "virtuous spiral" has gone into reverse, with congestion in central London increasing due to extra private hire vehicles and probably also transfer of roadspace to cyclists, and this has made many buses too slow to be useful. Along with the fares freeze and funding cuts, these are reasons for reductions in central London bus services in the last few years, with the policy being to increase bus use in outer London instead where, as mentioned, a large proportion of travel is by car. The bus cuts that were supposed to be counteracted by extra capacity from Crossrail have gone ahead anyway despite Crossrail being delayed.

 

[carlberry]

London has a bonkers fare system, per TfL finance reports (in Board reports on TfL website) average bus fare is about 74p
It is £1.50 single, but can make make multiple journeys within hour (actually bit longer to avoid quibbles over bus being minute late) so average is about half, and of course some categories are free.

But London buses loses nearly £2m per day, and it is only because of Labour Mayor Khan's policies that he allows that level of subsidy

For some reason it appears bus ridership has crashed in last few weeks, so probably loosing even more now
It is on page 24 of this TfL Finance Committee report (but no explanations yet).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/finance-committee-20191218-public-agenda-documents.pdf

As Matt said the subsidy has been reduced since Boris left as lots of government subsidy suddenly dried up. So Mayor Khan isn't allowing that level of subsidy, he's cutting it because he has to.

 

[carlberry]

Adding more buses and subsidizing them enough that people use them is a much quicker (and probably cheaper) way to increase the capacity of public transport than building a new tube line. On the introduction of the congestion charge a lot of the money was put into buses, which could get around faster with less traffic, and provide extra seats for people who would otherwise have driven. This would be impossible anywhere else in Great Britain because with very limited exceptions the buses are operated commercially so have to charge a fare that covers cost and profit, and most forms of subsidy or more integration between operators would fall foul of competition law.

The getting around faster bit is possible anywhere, but the authorities that control the infrastructure don't want to do it. Commercial operation dosent preclude subsidy, the lack of money to do it is what prevents it.

 

[matt_world2004]

Iirc the average bus fare was 70p when mayor Sadiq Khan came to power, I was told the hopper fare dropped it to 60p but it appears to have gone up to 70p the main determination of average bus fare revenue is zip card usage and travel card reimbursement. Travel card reimbursement is low for buses because it is done on a per mile basis which disadvantages the mode that Carey's the passenger the shortest distance which is most likely a bus zip card revenue has a notional value of 0 same with staff passes 60+ passes , veterans etc etc. Freedom passes have a notional value of £1.05 per trip as this is what TfL gets reimbursed by London councils

The loss of subsidy has meant the planning capacity of bus routes (basically how full the bus needs to be before the frequency is reviewed) has gone up from 70% - 90%, bus routes have been shortened and realigned based on the principle that there is less of a need to provide a direct services.

Also by transferring the route mileage from inner London to outer London they can cut the amount of buses used to deliver those miles. This is because the average bus speed is slower in inner London than outer London, so outer London requires less buses to cover the same mileage.

I also believe there have been huge cuts on buses that cross the greater London boundary , this is because TfL are no longer willing to cover the loss of revenue that is made by serving these areas without a subsidy from the local authority from which the bus serves

 

[PeterC]

Just looked it up, and that short bus journey + a tube ride from Camden to Euston cost £3.90 which is pretty steep!

Why would anybody do that though? There is no need to change modes as Mornington Crescent, Camden Town and Chalk Farm stations are so close together and it is a short bus ride or perfectly reasonable walk (even for me at 68).
I assume of course that you mean Camden Town. If you mean a random point within the borough then all you have to do is stand on Euston concourse and you have done the journey for nothing.