Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
I'm thinking they should look at an old Greenline map and suddenly the lost connections in Outer London and the neighbouring areas becomes a bit more clear.
The Green Line network reflected the needs of 1946 when services resumed after the war. By the early 1960s it was losing money as passengers deserted it in droves. There were many reasons - increased car ownership played a role but the improvements in rail links, particularly to the north east of London, were also a factor. Bear in mind that in 1946 apart from the Southern network commuter rail services were still steam hauled and many did not run anywhere near as frequently as they do today.
When London Country reviewed the network in the 1970s it largely ditched the traditional cross London routes as they simply didn’t justify themselves.
The headway over most traditional Green Line routes would not be attractive to today’s “I want it now” culture. The idea that running a bus every 12 minutes between East Grinstead and Hemel Hempstead will reverse 60 years of decline is simply bonkers.
Recreating the Green Line network, even in part, would cost a fortune and probably simply result in buses carting so much fresh air around.
I agree with this. Also north - east connections in this area of London are crap as well.
Somewhere as close as Chingford (which I can acctually see from a relatives house, across the Lea valley) is not very easy to get to.
The only real link is the 313 from Ponders End, which is at best every 20 minutes. I know it uses double deckers now but this route is often very packed.
TFL are proposing a superloop bus route along this section though, from Barnet to somewhere in Chingford (probably hatch as that’s where the SL14 is proposed to go). This will finally relieve the overcrowded 313.
Assuming this Superloop route won't happen this year now as nearly nothing is known about it. Would be a bit disappointing if it mainly duplicates 307 and 121 at the Barnet/ Oakwood end and then follows 313. I agree 313 has issues but not very imaginative if they don't end up creating something new, Enfield - Chingford - Loughton would surely be useful. Plenty of options they could go for. Barnet to Watford Junction seems like an obvious but missing link too. Wondering in the end, would full network reviews in all outer boroughs including full analysis of traffic and congestion help improve things and lead to a more stable network? Otherwise its endless tinkering, especially cuts with seemingly no idea of the wider impact.
I would propose that the 215 extends up to Waltham Abbey at its current frequency.
I know the 505 used to run down Sewardstone Road on Saturdays only, but I think having a TFL service would be much easier and beneficial for the residents.
I think the 317 should either go to Cheshunt station, or the Brookfield centre. The former has no direct link to Waltham Cross Or Enfield, and the latters links could be improved massively.
What is frustrating on the Essex side is the 15 ran by Central Connect became hourly last year and was enhanced again a few weeks ago. So Waltham Cross to Harlow, the last bus is now 10:05pm, over 3 hours later than before. Buses towards Waltham Abbey are steadily running later and later which is good, but still nothing on restoring a bus to Chingford, which I'd say has to be more of a draw than either Nazeing or Harlow! Essex is clearly enhancing buses all around the county, except in the areas bordering London. Almost like they expect TFL to run cross-border, which is understandable when Loughton, Debden, Grange Park, Chigwell Row, Brentwood and even Ockenden and Lakeside get London buses. So why not treat Waltham Abbey the same? But there needs to be regular dialogue for it to actually happen.
The 505 Arriva ran made sense as it was an hourly service every day, the Saturday only service that ran in the end made no sense at all. What is now the 15 is the northern part of the 505 but going to Waltham Cross instead. So I agree the 215 makes the most sense to extend now. 379 is a good alternative to extend if Walthamstow end causes reliability issues on the 215.
Ideally the 317 would go to Brookfield and replace that section of 242 (greatly enhancing the frequency from Waltham Cross to Brookfield as well as the new links to Enfield, it would be well used for sure) and an all day town service would cover both Cuffley and Cheshunt, including both stations. Also seems clear now Hertfordshire has no pressing want to introduce any new DRT areas, instead improving capacity where it runs already. So they clearly want to keep DRT to just rural areas and small towns. Probably makes sense that the far more urban south of the county sticks to fixed routes, but like Essex, there seems to be a divide between Herts and TFL still for some reason.
Daft as you say, there are tons of gaps in the bus network between the 3 counties and no one seems to want to take responsibility.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Enfield Island Villiage
Brimsdown Station
Ponders End/Mollison Avenue (to connect with route 313 and the planned superloop bus along lea valley Road)
Lea Valley Lesuire Complex (either building new stops along Meridian Way, or have the bus divert in to serve the pre-existing W8 stop)
Meridian Water Station
Northumberland Park station
Tottenham Hale Station.
It genuinely is a shame there is a roundabout to nowhere at the northern end of Mollison Avenue and the same with no road between Enfield Island Village and Sewardstone, as I feel a short extension beyond Enfield further up the Lea Valley would suddenly make this route a lot more useful and not just duplicating the railway. But at the same time, I hate any train from my end that stops at Enfield Lock, Brimsdown and Ponders End, those 3 stations fill up any train on their own at seemingly any time of day. The 3tph at Enfield Lock and 2tph at the other two clearly isn't enough. Could put in the bus and highlight the need for Crossrail 2 and 4 tracking by numbering it the CR2 and branding it as such. TFL doing it with Bakerloop and I think special buses ran that promoted Croydon trams before that opened too.
The Green Line network reflected the needs of 1946 when services resumed after the war. By the early 1960s it was losing money as passengers deserted it in droves. There were many reasons - increased car ownership played a role but the improvements in rail links, particularly to the north east of London, were also a factor. Bear in mind that in 1946 apart from the Southern network commuter rail services were still steam hauled and many did not run anywhere near as frequently as they do today.
When London Country reviewed the network in the 1970s it largely ditched the traditional cross London routes as they simply didn’t justify themselves.
The headway over most traditional Green Line routes would not be attractive to today’s “I want it now” culture. The idea that running a bus every 12 minutes between East Grinstead and Hemel Hempstead will reverse 60 years of decline is simply bonkers.
Recreating the Green Line network, even in part, would cost a fortune and probably simply result in buses carting so much fresh air around.
What I meant is have a small network of limited stop routes (10 or so) that connect towns outside London but are commuter towns with the first major Outer London town centre. So no cross-city routes or even any that go to Central London. Just routes that help reduce the severance between London and its neighbours. Uno's 614 is a good example of what I mean as it connects the university with tube stations on the Northern and Jubilee Lines, using the A1M to go faster. On paper many towns around London look well connected because of the train journey time but a poorly laid out town with buses that have rubbish train connections mean a half hour train journey can easily double or more when having to go home from a station.
Also none of the Greenline routes ran every 12 minutes, many were hourly.
What I meant is have a small network of limited stop routes (10 or so) that connect towns outside London but are commuter towns with the first major Outer London town centre. So no cross-city routes or even any that go to Central London. Just routes that help reduce the severance between London and its neighbours. Uno's 614 is a good example of what I mean as it connects the university with tube stations on the Northern and Jubilee Lines, using the A1M to go faster. On paper many towns around London look well connected because of the train journey time but a poorly laid out town with buses that have rubbish train connections mean a half hour train journey can easily double or more when having to go home from a station.
Also none of the Greenline routes ran every 12 minutes, many were hourly.
Actually the 721 did run up to every 12 minutes in its heyday. The point I was trying to make, but clearly failing, was that there is insufficient demand to warrant a frequent service along the lines that you suggest. A hourly service would not entice people out of their cars onto the bus. London Country tried to gain traction with routes to tube heads such as Walthamstow without success with its revamped network in the late 70s.
With a few notable exceptions - where such links already exist - there simply aren’t the point to point demands to justify the sort of routes that you dream of. The money that would be required to support them can be far better spent in other initiatives.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Assuming this Superloop route won't happen this year now as nearly nothing is known about it. Would be a bit disappointing if it mainly duplicates 307 and 121 at the Barnet/ Oakwood end and then follows 313.
A superloop route on this section is planned, and will most likely follow the 307 from Barnet to Enfield, then pick up the 313 to Chingford Green. I hope from this point, it goes towards Chingford Hatch, and not Chingford bus station.
It SHOULD go further east to an area like Woodford for example. (Loughton maybe not so much, this is a superloop circular service remember, but it would nice to see such a link exist.)
Another thing I have thought of is extending the 179 to Ponders End. This would introduce a nice link from North to East London, but it may make the route too long.
TFL don’t want to fund cross border routes. It’s annoying but it’s the truth. That’s partly the reason why they won’t increase the frequency on the 313. That and the fact that Chingford bus station is overcrowded with routes.
It genuinely is a shame there is a roundabout to nowhere at the northern end of Mollison Avenue and the same with no road between Enfield Island Village and Sewardstone, as I feel a short extension beyond Enfield further up the Lea Valley would suddenly make this route a lot more useful and not just duplicating the railway.
But at the same time, I hate any train from my end that stops at Enfield Lock, Brimsdown and Ponders End, those 3 stations fill up any train on their own at seemingly any time of day. The 3tph at Enfield Lock and 2tph at the other two clearly isn't enough. Could put in the bus and highlight the need for Crossrail 2 and 4 tracking by numbering it the CR2 and branding it as such. TFL doing it with Bakerloop and I think special buses ran that promoted Croydon trams before that opened too.
I have complained on here about the stopping service this side of Enfield way too many times, it’s like I’m a broken record!
But the Hertford stoppers are no longer fit for purpose.
The five car units off peak and on weekends are rammed by Tottenham Hale. I was on a five car Hertford - Liv Street stopper, which was so overcrowded that fights broke out between passengers trying to board. I was on the second to last carriage, as all the others towards the front were to crammed to board.
Then at Tottenham Hale a huge stampede of passengers alight, all heading for the Victoria Line. It can be quite daunting or even dangerous for anyone on the platform waiting to board the train.
I think the Hertford services should be 10 cars all day on weekends, as Sundays are just as busy as Saturdays.
Sometimes I think the way in which the services along the WAML are unfair. The Cambridge North stopper and semi-fast are normally 10 coaches long, and the front unit always seems to be very empty on arrival into Tottenham Hale northbound on Weekends, southbound is the same, with only moderate loads of people alighting.
Then when the Hertford stopper pulls in, crowds of people waiting up to the five car 720 stopping mark, and nearly all coaches packed to the doors..
Why does Roydon see 2tph? It only has 0.133 million passangers per year. Shelford further up the line has 0.222 passangers a year, yet only sees an hourly train.
I know the Stratford - Stortford trains don’t run as far as Shelford obviously, but one of those Roydon calls on the Stratford trains should go to another station south of Cheshunt. Roydon does not need it, I have waited for trains there myself and the station is incredibly quiet, only 6 others got on with me when I boarded the service ( this was at 13:05 on a Saturday by the way )
This call could go to Meridian Water, or Brimsdown to boost trains there. I cannot express to you enough how undesireable the service has gotten in recent years.
The Stortford - Stratford services could see so much better use if they stopped at the right stations, but I feel like constantly missing out the likes of Brimsdown and Ponders End is such a waste..
What I meant is have a small network of limited stop routes (10 or so) that connect towns outside London but are commuter towns with the first major Outer London town centre. So no cross-city routes or even any that go to Central London. Just routes that help reduce the severance between London and its neighbours. Uno's 614 is a good example of what I mean as it connects the university with tube stations on the Northern and Jubilee Lines, using the A1M to go faster. On paper many towns around London look well connected because of the train journey time but a poorly laid out town with buses that have rubbish train connections mean a half hour train journey can easily double or more when having to go home from a station.
Also none of the Greenline routes ran every 12 minutes, many were hourly.
100% in agreement. Take Orpington and Sevenoaks, or Biggin Hill and Sevenoaks.
Next door to each other and yet not connected by bus (the bus connection between Orpington and Sevenoaks hardly exists, 3 buses a day operated by Go-Coach).
A TFL bus connecting Sevenoaks to Orpington or Biggin Hill, would allow with a single bus change, continuing onto as far as Lewisham.
The lack of interest or joint thinking between local authorities and TFL really is baffling.
100% in agreement. Take Orpington and Sevenoaks, or Biggin Hill and Sevenoaks.
Next door to each other and yet not connected by bus (the bus connection between Orpington and Sevenoaks hardly exists, 3 buses a day operated by Go-Coach).
A TFL bus connecting Sevenoaks to Orpington or Biggin Hill, would allow with a single bus change, continuing onto as far as Lewisham.
The lack of interest or joint thinking between local authorities and TFL really is baffling.
100% in agreement. Take Orpington and Sevenoaks, or Biggin Hill and Sevenoaks.
Next door to each other and yet not connected by bus (the bus connection between Orpington and Sevenoaks hardly exists, 3 buses a day operated by Go-Coach).
A TFL bus connecting Sevenoaks to Orpington or Biggin Hill, would allow with a single bus change, continuing onto as far as Lewisham.
The lack of interest or joint thinking between local authorities and TFL really is baffling.
Last time I travelled on the Go-Coach 3, all the passengers from Orpington were off the bus by Knockholt, except me as the sole passenger through to Sevenoaks.
There have been extensive discussions on various threads recently about this sort of route, both here and in other areas, and the resounding result has been that day-to-day passengers simply have no need for a service. Could you list, say, three reasons why you think there is a need for Granny Dryden of Solefields to be able to travel to Lewisham with one change of bus? Any services that only exist in Orpington or Lewisham that don't exist in Tonbridge?
The electoral wards to the west of Sevenoaks are essentially the richest (or least deprived) in the entirely of Kent. The bus is used by those who have no other option, not as a lifestyle choice.
100% in agreement. Take Orpington and Sevenoaks, or Biggin Hill and Sevenoaks.
Next door to each other and yet not connected by bus (the bus connection between Orpington and Sevenoaks hardly exists, 3 buses a day operated by Go-Coach).
A TFL bus connecting Sevenoaks to Orpington or Biggin Hill, would allow with a single bus change, continuing onto as far as Lewisham.
The lack of interest or joint thinking between local authorities and TFL really is baffling.
Sevenoaks has 4tph to Orpington, with a half-hourly service continuing fast to Charing Cross. What market do you think is being underserved by the current network? How many people in leafy Sevenoaks are travelling to Lewisham on such a tight budget that they would prefer to spend 2 hours on a bus journey involving a change rather than 40 minutes on a direct train? You could count them on the fingers of one foot!
The 81 has existed since before the first world war (albeit originally route 62) and serves Greater London up to the boundary at Longford. Whilst in more recent times the 423 has been introduced which also serves the village this follows an indirect route to Hounslow. The 81 could, probably, be turned somewhere like Brands Hill but there are significant flows from the Hounslow end to the grammar schools in Slough. Overall it’s a busy route with over 4m journeys last year. It’s above suburban services like the 213, 285 and 119. What is odd, though, is that between Slough and Heathrow North it shares the road with several non-TfL services. Whilst these are primarily aimed at the Heathrow market it is unusual and I am surprised that First and Reading Buses/Thames Valley haven’t cried foul about the heavily subsidised TfL route abstracting potential passengers.
100% in agreement. Take Orpington and Sevenoaks, or Biggin Hill and Sevenoaks.
Next door to each other and yet not connected by bus (the bus connection between Orpington and Sevenoaks hardly exists, 3 buses a day operated by Go-Coach).
A TFL bus connecting Sevenoaks to Orpington or Biggin Hill, would allow with a single bus change, continuing onto as far as Lewisham.
The lack of interest or joint thinking between local authorities and TFL really is baffling.
Arriva used to run a regular service from Tonbridge and Sevenoaks to Bromley via Green Street Green (the 402), but pulled out of it presumably due to lack of passengers. What has changed since then?
I believe there was a proposal to construct a link to the A121, connecting to the roundabout by Innova Business Park. There may even have been a plan to build a Junction 25a on the M25, though I'm unsure how they'd fit sliproads in on the Clockwise carriageway.
It really isn't. The costs of running a TfL standard bus service far outweigh the costs of the shire equivalent, so there are (as detailed somewhere in this thread) almost no shire county contributions to TfL services. Conversely (and also detailed upstream) it is almost impossible to run a commercially-viable service from across the border into TfL land, as Oyster cannot be used and so few passengers will use it within London.
It really isn't. The costs of running a TfL standard bus service far outweigh the costs of the shire equivalent, so there are (as detailed somewhere in this thread) almost no shire county contributions to TfL services.
Ok. So you can’t really run other operators into TFL boundaries. Fine. But TFL also don’t want to run routes outside the Greater London. So we are essentially stuck. The message I am getting is, use the train or drive..
It really isn't. The costs of running a TfL standard bus service far outweigh the costs of the shire equivalent, so there are (as detailed somewhere in this thread) almost no shire county contributions to TfL services. Conversely (and also detailed upstream) it is almost impossible to run a commercially-viable service from across the border into TfL land, as Oyster cannot be used and so few passengers will use it within London.
What is the reason a non-TFL route can't use Oyster or at least price match? And potentially offer a free onward travel receipt to be taken by the next bus you board and TFL reimburse the difference to the operator? Uno and Arriva operate in both London and Hertfordshire, surely as businesses they aren't that different?
Asking as I found out today that the Burnley Bus Company X43 route accepts Bee Network tickets and charges the same £2 fare within Manchester. I don't see why TFL/ London can't do the same.
Actually the 721 did run up to every 12 minutes in its heyday. The point I was trying to make, but clearly failing, was that there is insufficient demand to warrant a frequent service along the lines that you suggest. A hourly service would not entice people out of their cars onto the bus. London Country tried to gain traction with routes to tube heads such as Walthamstow without success with its revamped network in the late 70s.
I didn't know that, many Greenline routes were half hourly or hourly. Obviously 721 would be redundant now because of the Elizabeth Line but was thinking of routes that rail are little good for, like East to West travel across North London and the main towns in Hertfordshire. I agree hourly buses aren't enough to entice drivers, to me that level of service is the bare minimum. I think with joined up planning a well timed half hourly or better bus service that connects with a half hourly or better rail service would do wonders. I find the 298 connecting to Cockfosters really useful and not the only one.
100% in agreement. Take Orpington and Sevenoaks, or Biggin Hill and Sevenoaks.
Next door to each other and yet not connected by bus (the bus connection between Orpington and Sevenoaks hardly exists, 3 buses a day operated by Go-Coach).
A TFL bus connecting Sevenoaks to Orpington or Biggin Hill, would allow with a single bus change, continuing onto as far as Lewisham.
The lack of interest or joint thinking between local authorities and TFL really is baffling.
While I completely agree about the lack of joint up thinking and the need for improved cross-border connections, I'm not too sure Orpington to Sevenoaks is a particularly good example, given they are quite a distance apart with next to nothing in between, and there is a relatively high frequency train service between the two, so few people would use the bus for travel between the two even if a decent frequency was provided.
What really needs to be improved are the more local connections where the border runs through the middle of suburban areas or separates two closely linked towns, for example extending some of the existing TfL routes at Waltham Cross to Cheshunt and Waltham Abbey as @aron2smith has mentioned before, or extending the 116 to Staines, as well as improving frequencies of existing cross border routes as the large majority do their job well and are very busy.
A superloop route on this section is planned, and will most likely follow the 307 from Barnet to Enfield, then pick up the 313 to Chingford Green. I hope from this point, it goes towards Chingford Hatch, and not Chingford bus station.
It SHOULD go further east to an area like Woodford for example. (Loughton maybe not so much, this is a superloop circular service remember, but it would nice to see such a link exist.)
Another thing I have thought of is extending the 179 to Ponders End. This would introduce a nice link from North to East London, but it may make the route too long.
TFL don’t want to fund cross border routes. It’s annoying but it’s the truth. That’s partly the reason why they won’t increase the frequency on the 313. That and the fact that Chingford bus station is overcrowded with routes.
Enfield's links are generally fine unless you want to go north and it's not near the Great Northern stations. Part of why I bank on Crews Hill development to go ahead as they would need to run more buses to Potters Bar and restore links to both Cuffley and Cheshunt then.
Chingford bus station has no more space for new services for sure. Part of the same problem in Waltham Cross too.
Ponders End to Ilford sounds quite useful. Generally North London to North East London seems pretty separate because of the reservoirs.
TFL being this way with cross-boundary reflects badly on them. Not a lot of scope to improve Outer London's buses as they keep saying they will without some new or restored cross-boundary links. Generally concerned by the use of the word 'simplify' when it comes to the buses in Inner and Central London if a focus to improving the buses in Outer London doesn't provide new links as we already said including to towns on the other side of the border. Could probably think of a good dozen town pairings that would benefit from a direct bus, especially if limited stop.
Passenger numbers down 20% since pandemic - as TfL admits defeat in making bus fleet ‘zero emission’ by 2030
www.standard.co.uk
The network as it was in the early 80s was a more appropriate network for cross-boundary plus country routes also coming into Outer London town centres. Uxbridge and Kingston in particular seem broadly similar to today, Heathrow is very well served in all directions by bus, Croydon -a number of country routes transferred to TFL so the links broadly remained but others especially Bromley, Romford, Enfield and Barnet seem a lot more cut off from places outside London today.
To be honest, I just want a bus back along the full length of Sewardstone Road again, even one bus an hour to start with is better than the nothing that exists today. The current frequency of either the 215 or 379 is a bonus, we don't actually know how many people would use it as the previous service stopped nearly 10 years ago, but if its anything like the 242, could be promising with the potential. Last time counted 16 of us on board passing Rosedale towards Goff's Oak and Cuffley and it was the middle of the day! Still half of them left on the bus when I got off at Cuffley Station. On a journey that didn't exist 13 months ago!
The five car units off peak and on weekends are rammed by Tottenham Hale. I was on a five car Hertford - Liv Street stopper, which was so overcrowded that fights broke out between passengers trying to board. I was on the second to last carriage, as all the others towards the front were to crammed to board.
I think the Hertford services should be 10 cars all day on weekends, as Sundays are just as busy as Saturdays.
Sometimes I think the way in which the services along the WAML are unfair. The Cambridge North stopper and semi-fast are normally 10 coaches long, and the front unit always seems to be very empty on arrival into Tottenham Hale northbound on Weekends, southbound is the same, with only moderate loads of people alighting.
Then when the Hertford stopper pulls in, crowds of people waiting up to the five car 720 stopping mark, and nearly all coaches packed to the doors..
Why does Roydon see 2tph? It only has 0.133 million passangers per year. Shelford further up the line has 0.222 passangers a year, yet only sees an hourly train.
I know the Stratford - Stortford trains don’t run as far as Shelford obviously, but one of those Roydon calls on the Stratford trains should go to another station south of Cheshunt. Roydon does not need it, I have waited for trains there myself and the station is incredibly quiet, only 6 others got on with me when I boarded the service ( this was at 13:05 on a Saturday by the way )
This call could go to Meridian Water, or Brimsdown to boost trains there. I cannot express to you enough how undesireable the service has gotten in recent years.
The Stortford - Stratford services could see so much better use if they stopped at the right stations, but I feel like constantly missing out the likes of Brimsdown and Ponders End is such a waste..
Problem is most of these trains were 8 carriages, new rolling stock introduced around 2020, trains reduced to 5 carriages. Even Weaver Line puts on 8 carriages in rush hour! The population and demand is still increasing across the Borough of Enfield and yet the trains are shorter and bus routes potentially cut, it makes no sense. Even worse the rare times Enfield Lock or Brimsdown get a double train, 4 of the carriages don't fit on the platform, when the old units fit no problem. Great planning! Increasing Weaver Line frequency would provide some relief at least short term.
Roydon only gets a better service as it gets the Stortford services. Seems like the Lea Valley Lines are totally at the mercy of Stansted Express, leading to a very imbalanced rail service. Enfield Lock area really needs a tube like service, which will only come if Crossrail 2 happens.
Also really agree with everything said here.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
100% in agreement. Take Orpington and Sevenoaks, or Biggin Hill and Sevenoaks.
Next door to each other and yet not connected by bus (the bus connection between Orpington and Sevenoaks hardly exists, 3 buses a day operated by Go-Coach).
A TFL bus connecting Sevenoaks to Orpington or Biggin Hill, would allow with a single bus change, continuing onto as far as Lewisham.
The lack of interest or joint thinking between local authorities and TFL really is baffling.
I think where Sevenoaks really is missing links is into towns like Croydon and Dartford/ Gravesend. Bromley, Orpington and Lewisham at least have direct trains but east or west of the line is very awkward without having to go into London Bridge and out again. Sevenoaks clearly needs more public transport, for the size of it, traffic is bad and unlike so many towns across England still has a decent enough bus station but with few services to use it. A route via Biggin Hill would make sense I think as that needs better connections away from London. Also a shame the rail station is where it is compared to the bus station as Knole Park is great!
Generally, even with 5 miles of London's boundaries, quite a few towns exist that would benefit from direct connections and in my view could really encourage modal shift with just some joined up thinking.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
While I completely agree about the lack of joint up thinking and the need for improved cross-border connections, I'm not too sure Orpington to Sevenoaks is a particularly good example, given they are quite a distance apart with next to nothing in between, and there is a relatively high frequency train service between the two, so few people would use the bus for travel between the two even if a decent frequency was provided.
What really needs to be improved are the more local connections where the border runs through the middle of suburban areas or separates two closely linked towns, for example extending some of the existing TfL routes at Waltham Cross to Cheshunt and Waltham Abbey as @aron2smith has mentioned before, or extending the 116 to Staines, as well as improving frequencies of existing cross border routes as the large majority do their job well and are very busy.
Exactly, north, south west and west of London, it is very blurry because of their urban/suburban nature.
I think Sevenoaks problem is it has 3 rail stations and yet somehow most people live away from them and the low density of the town makes even a town route difficult without subsidy and yet weirdly the main bus route goes to Tonbridge, which also gets a direct rail service. Kent elsewhere to Dartford/ Bluewater is probably about right and met by the great Fastrack routes, shame a night bus doesn't meet the N route of Fastrack in Dartford as that would provide 24 hour buses to Gravesend!
I would consider where TFL fails areas to mainly be in southern Hertfordshire and northern Surrey though, where basically nothing separates London from not London. Essex is somehow mostly let off by having TFL serve Loughton, Debden, Grange Hill, Brentwood and Lakeside. Where its still built up in Grays/ Lakeside, reasonable buses are ran by Ensignbus. Central Line to Epping also makes a huge difference. Waltham Abbey is massively let down in my view.
Southern Herts/ Lea Valley - TFL really needs to be consistent. Waltham Abbey, Cheshunt and Cuffley were once served by frequent all day London buses like 242 and 279 (242 and 250 for Waltham Abbey) yet these places are more built up today. Potters Bar - their garage is still there and yet they refused to revise one of the routes to cover Potters Bar to Barnet, despite routes to Enfield/ Chingford and Arnos Grove. Still baffled by that - ghost buses run from Potters Bar to both Barnet and Waltham Cross all day every day. Borehamwood, Bushey and Watford still get a decent TFL service as they always did. In fact the 107 was enhanced to every 15 minutes all day, 2 years ago or so.
Surrey seems to have fared better in places, maybe because it's near Heathrow. However, still shocked how few buses run in Walton and Weybridge despite nearby Esher and Sunbury getting loads of buses, Staines too. Kingston appears pretty well connected by both non-TFL and TFL services. Epsom is why I don't get why they can't be more flexibility as the 166 mainly runs to Banstead (also across the border) but some journeys are extended. Works well. Dorking is very lucky. Redhill makes sense to serve and Metrobus is good for further afield. The people at Netherne on the Hill have a good case in my opinion, even if it was just a minibus to Coulsdon South.
I'm sure geography and politics has caused alot of this to go how it did, but consistency from London's transport where it is clearly continuously built up would be really helpful.
Heathrow is well served from outside London because it is right on the boundary. Most of the routes serving it (apart from the 102 and 724/5) don’t depend on picking up passengers within Greater London on inbound journeys. The same can be said of Uxbridge and Kingston. As for TfL running buses outside London these would almost certainly not cover their costs. TfL would be criticised for spending Londoners’ money on such services and, potentially, abstracting revenue from other commercial services that they parallel.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Surrey seems to have fared better in places, maybe because it's near Heathrow. However, still shocked how few buses run in Walton and Weybridge despite nearby Esher and Sunbury getting loads of buses, Staines too.
Walton is actually quite well connected by bus…three per hour to Kingston, Weybridge, Chertsey and Kingston. Twice an hour to Staines and Hatton Cross and even three times a day - one weekdays at least - to Charlton (home of the only remaining thatched pub in the true Middlesex). Weybridge also isn’t badly served with services to Woking, Kingston and Chertsey. In addition both have good rail links which, if the locals really have to use public transport, is probably their mode of choice.
The local network probably more than meets demand and to add more buses is simply throwing good money after bad.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
While I completely agree about the lack of joint up thinking and the need for improved cross-border connections, I'm not too sure Orpington to Sevenoaks is a particularly good example, given they are quite a distance apart with next to nothing in between, and there is a relatively high frequency train service between the two, so few people would use the bus for travel between the two even if a decent frequency was provided.
What really needs to be improved are the more local connections where the border runs through the middle of suburban areas or separates two closely linked towns, for example extending some of the existing TfL routes at Waltham Cross to Cheshunt and Waltham Abbey as @aron2smith has mentioned before, or extending the 116 to Staines, as well as improving frequencies of existing cross border routes as the large majority do their job well and are very busy.
The 116 was withdrawn between Ashford Hospital and Staines in 1995. At the time users were directed towards the 203 and 216. Today White Bus 446 and Carlone’s 442 also provide links on this section.
Of the TfL services to Staines the 117 is very busy and would benefit from either a frequency uplift or double decking (but would need to be rerouted to avoid the rail bridge in Isleworth). Now it’s been double decked the capacity in the 203 probably matches demand pretty well. Some journeys on the 290 at school start / finish times run full but for most of the day the current service level is fine. The 216 doesn’t need any more capacity.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
What is the reason a non-TFL route can't use Oyster or at least price match? And potentially offer a free onward travel receipt to be taken by the next bus you board and TFL reimburse the difference to the operator? Uno and Arriva operate in both London and Hertfordshire, surely as businesses they aren't that different?
Asking as I found out today that the Burnley Bus Company X43 route accepts Bee Network tickets and charges the same £2 fare within Manchester. I don't see why TFL/ London can't do the same.
Reimbursement, as far as I know TfL don't reimburse non-TfL operators for Oyster acceptance or price matching whilst TfGM do reimburse non-Bee Network operators for accepting their tickets and participating in their local fare cap. You would have to ask TfL why it is so disinterested in working with operators outside London to integrate these cross boundary services into their provision in this manner but it has been a long time since they have shown any great interest in working with such routes. This has been quoted by several operators, whether entirely fair or not, as one of the reasons why they withdrew cross-boundary routes - that to be able to participate in these non-statutory revenue streams you had to comply with certain London centric requirements that were unreasonable for a non-urban service (how much depended on which revenue streams you were trying to access but the suggestion was to get full acceptance you had to run London spec dual-door vehicles with no tip ups and so low seating and high standing capacity that is unattractive for a longer distance country bus service - I have seen this denied by someone who worked for TfL at a mid-level but it was never clear how much involvement they had in these sort of discussions but there is a hell of a lot of smoke for their to be no fire there).
None of the operators running LSP services into London has the facility to read an Oyster card and, given that it’s obsolete technology this is unlikely to change.
For commercial reasons some operators match the fare charged by TfL on their routes within Greater London. Some also do so on stretches outside where buses run parallel to TfL services. Some require sight of an Oyster card (eg White Bus and Falcon) whilst others (UNO and Carousel) do not.
The rationale is that the bus has space so it’s better to get £1.75 than nothing if the intending passenger simply waits for the next TfL service. This is exactly what happens on White Bus 555 (which does not offer such a facility) along much of its length between Sunbury and Stanwell.
Sevenoaks has no bus network because people in Sevenoaks wouldn’t be seen dead on a public bus. I grew up around there and the only times buses were busy were the school run and then the OAPs at 0930.
Look at the cuts there for evidence that it’s dead territory for buses - 402 used to be hourly to Bromley and then every 15min to Tunbridge Wells, 306/308 used to be hourly Sevenoaks - Bluewater, 401 used to be hourly to Westerham, there used to be a 403 to Swanley & Dartford (or something like that), all dead or cut back massively now
Sevenoaks has no bus network because people in Sevenoaks wouldn’t be seen dead on a public bus. I grew up around there and the only times buses were busy were the school run and then the OAPs at 0930.
Look at the cuts there for evidence that it’s dead territory for buses - 402 used to be hourly to Bromley and then every 15min to Tunbridge Wells, 306/308 used to be hourly Sevenoaks - Bluewater, 401 used to be hourly to Westerham, there used to be a 403 to Swanley & Dartford (or something like that), all dead or cut back massively now
…and going back a little further (but still within living memory) the 403 (later 403A and then 483) provided a link with Croydon and Green Line 704/5 to central London and on to Windsor. There is a reason they have gone - as you note the locals wouldn’t be seen dead in a bus.
Short of introducing politically suicidal controls on car use nothing is going to change this so it’s probably best to focus on those corridors that the bus can serve effectively and efficiently.
Sevenoaks has 4tph to Orpington, with a half-hourly service continuing fast to Charing Cross. What market do you think is being underserved by the current network? How many people in leafy Sevenoaks are travelling to Lewisham on such a tight budget that they would prefer to spend 2 hours on a bus journey involving a change rather than 40 minutes on a direct train? You could count them on the fingers of one foot!
Tell me how many trains per hour there are between Sevenoaks and Biggin Hill? Also, a bus serves a different purpose to a train, you are forgetting locations in between (Polhill Centre, Knockholt village which is far from the train station and Green street Green)
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
…and going back a little further (but still within living memory) the 403 (later 403A and then 483) provided a link with Croydon and Green Line 704/5 to central London and on to Windsor. There is a reason they have gone - as you note the locals wouldn’t be seen dead in a bus.
Short of introducing politically suicidal controls on car use nothing is going to change this so it’s probably best to focus on those corridors that the bus can serve effectively and efficiently.
It's not just the locals.. It would bring people from other areas, in particular Greater London to potentially shop in Sevenoaks (the high street is struggling).
And you forget those that live in Greater London and work in Sevenoaks, in the care or hospitality sector. Those would welcome the opportunity to use the bus as TFL bus pass is cheaper.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Arriva used to run a regular service from Tonbridge and Sevenoaks to Bromley via Green Street Green (the 402), but pulled out of it presumably due to lack of passengers. What has changed since then?
I am a recent arrival to the area but the road where I live has a couple of care homes and talking to a couple of staff, they would welcome a regular bus to Orpington or Biggin Hill.
TFL monthly bus pass is cheaper than the train.
There are people commuting from Greater London to Sevenoaks to work in the care, hospitality and local shops...
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Sevenoaks has 4tph to Orpington, with a half-hourly service continuing fast to Charing Cross. What market do you think is being underserved by the current network? How many people in leafy Sevenoaks are travelling to Lewisham on such a tight budget that they would prefer to spend 2 hours on a bus journey involving a change rather than 40 minutes on a direct train? You could count them on the fingers of one foot!
I used Lewisham as an example...
You forget those travelling the other way, the ones commuting from Greater London to Sevenoaks. I can tell you that a high percentage of those working in the care homes dotted around Sevenoaks live in London.
A TFL bus pass would work out a lot cheaper for those.
Bus services around Sevenoaks should be improved. It’s quite a skeleton service at the moment. But how much it could improve is limited, due to many reasons highlighted here. Sevenoaks is a fairly small town, it is very rich (that doesn’t mean there arn’t people in social housing, low incomes etc) but its comparatively rich compared to nearby areas. A lot of the working population are London commuters, so like most commuter towns, it is very quiet during the day. Also, it has an excellent train service, which while isn’t ideally located for the town centre, does give residents fast, frequent links at most hours of every day into Orpington, central London, and the other way to Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells. So, most people who rely on public transport are covered to most useful destinations. There arn’t exactly going to be many people wanting to get to/from Westerham, Gravesend and other surrounding areas not accessible by train.
And for people wanting to visit Sevenoaks - while it is a lovely town, it doesn’t offer that much for tourists or shoppers.
That said, the local routes should ideally have a few more journeys a day, as they are very limited at the moment. The 308 should have its Saturday service back, and maybe the Orpington bus should have more than 3 journeys. After all, the train is not suitable for everybody, such as the elderly and disabled and those who are a long walk from the station. But any vast improvements , such as a TfL bus coming to Sevenoaks, is very wishful thinking. Any extra funding sourced would be better suited to other areas of London and Kent which have poor or average bus services as well as more deprivation.
Also, it might have been more useful for Go Bus to use their spare off-peak bus on improving other services, instead of introducing a competing service with Arriva’s half-hourly 402! The 402 is very lucky to have a half-hourly service in the area, and is lightly loaded outside of peak times, so having another service undermining it is not going to be helpful for anyone.
I realise this is now very much off-topic, apologies!
I think where Sevenoaks really is missing links is into towns like Croydon and Dartford/ Gravesend. Bromley, Orpington and Lewisham at least have direct trains but east or west of the line is very awkward without having to go into London Bridge and out again.
I think the phrase the internet uses here is "Tell me you don't know Sevenoaks without telling me you don't know Sevenoaks". It's the only place I know where Tesco has closed down! I can't think of anything in Croydon that would attract residents from Sevenoaks, or in Sevenoaks that would attract those from Croydon, Knole tourist attraction aside.
Biggin Hill needs, or you've looked at a London Country map and thinks it fills in a gap? If you set up your petition table outside the pub in Biggin Hill (land of the blown up ULEZ cameras), how many signatures would you estimate getting?
Not really. Only the southern side of town is far away - much of the north is reasonably well served by Dunton Green, Bat and Ball, and Sevenoaks itself. Large numbers of people stream out of Sevenoaks station in the evenings, and walk off in all manner of different directions. The car park is actually reasonably small in comparison to some, seemingly "better" placed locations.
There is a town route - Go-Bus service 8. It is not the low density of the town that is the problem, but the significantly higher than average incomes, and associated car use.
Which also suggests this is where people want to go... the 402 also serves the important community of Hildenborough, as well as linking through to Southborough and Tunbridge Wells.
Kent elsewhere to Dartford/ Bluewater is probably about right and met by the great Fastrack routes, shame a night bus doesn't meet the N route of Fastrack in Dartford as that would provide 24 hour buses to Gravesend!
The chances of a night bus in Sevenoaks are even lower than one to Biggin Hill! I think you overestimate the liklihood of people "going out" for the evening further than the local pub.
Sevenoaks has no bus network because people in Sevenoaks wouldn’t be seen dead on a public bus. I grew up around there and the only times buses were busy were the school run and then the OAPs at 0930.
Look at the cuts there for evidence that it’s dead territory for buses - 402 used to be hourly to Bromley and then every 15min to Tunbridge Wells, 306/308 used to be hourly Sevenoaks - Bluewater, 401 used to be hourly to Westerham, there used to be a 403 to Swanley & Dartford (or something like that), all dead or cut back massively now
Tell me how many trains per hour there are between Sevenoaks and Biggin Hill? Also, a bus serves a different purpose to a train, you are forgetting locations in between (Polhill Centre, Knockholt village which is far from the train station and Green street Green)
I repeat my earlier statement - usage through tiny, comparatively affluent villages is tiny. I know Polhill is more than just a garden centre, but the OAP-for-tea market is covered by the existing service. My one journey may or may not be representative, but the regular driver did say it's rare to get more than half a dozen people on any journey. These really aren't passenger generators.
It's not just the locals.. It would bring people from other areas, in particular Greater London to potentially shop in Sevenoaks (the high street is struggling).
It would bring them to shop in a struggling high street... when they could just shop at their local town's equally or less-struggling high street... Not sure I'm following the logic there. I suspect the R-routes to Oprington get a much, much higher use from Biggin Hill than a bus to Sevenoaks ever would.
I am a recent arrival to the area but the road where I live has a couple of care homes and talking to a couple of staff, they would welcome a regular bus to Orpington or Biggin Hill.
TFL monthly bus pass is cheaper than the train.
There are people commuting from Greater London to Sevenoaks to work in the care, hospitality and local shops...
I used Lewisham as an example...
You forget those travelling the other way, the ones commuting from Greater London to Sevenoaks. I can tell you that a high percentage of those working in the care homes dotted around Sevenoaks live in London.
A TFL bus pass would work out a lot cheaper for those.
Sorry, but this really isn't TfL's problem. I struggle to see how a bus service would work well for the likely shift-change times at a care home either, at least not compared to a 15 minute train service. I don't deny there are some people who come the other way, but this simply isn't the area it's likely to work.
Bus services around Sevenoaks should be improved. It’s quite a skeleton service at the moment. But how much it could improve is limited, due to many reasons highlighted here. Sevenoaks is a fairly small town, it is very rich (that doesn’t mean there arn’t people in social housing, low incomes etc) but its comparatively rich compared to nearby areas. A lot of the working population are London commuters, so like most commuter towns, it is very quiet during the day. Also, it has an excellent train service, which while isn’t ideally located for the town centre, does give residents fast, frequent links at most hours of every day into Orpington, central London, and the other way to Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells. So, most people who rely on public transport are covered to most useful destinations. There arn’t exactly going to be many people wanting to get to/from Westerham, Gravesend and other surrounding areas not accessible by train.
And for people wanting to visit Sevenoaks - while it is a lovely town, it doesn’t offer that much for tourists or shoppers.
That said, the local routes should ideally have a few more journeys a day, as they are very limited at the moment. The 308 should have its Saturday service back, and maybe the Orpington bus should have more than 3 journeys. After all, the train is not suitable for everybody, such as the elderly and disabled and those who are a long walk from the station. But any vast improvements , such as a TfL bus coming to Sevenoaks, is very wishful thinking. Any extra funding sourced would be better suited to other areas of London and Kent which have poor or average bus services as well as more deprivation.
Also, it might have been more useful for Go Bus to use their spare off-peak bus on improving other services, instead of introducing a competing service with Arriva’s half-hourly 402! The 402 is very lucky to have a half-hourly service in the area, and is lightly loaded outside of peak times, so having another service undermining it is not going to be helpful for anyone.
As with dodecahedron67's comments above, who clearly knows the town, this sums up the situation well, from my experiences. The service was more frequent, but did not bounce back after Covid - primarily because the largely ENCTS or school-based users did not return. Go-Coach had some issues with overcapacity on school buses immediately after Covid, because the work-from-home crows took them by car - a number are or were propped up by BSIP funds. Then, a year or two later, once office work restarted, all of a sudden they were back on the bus, and that double-now-single-deck route needed to go back to double again.
The 308 Saturday service was withdrawn at last tender owing to the very high cost of provision (based on low users). It's noticeable that it remains on the northern section to Vigo. Borough Green parish Council, the lead authority for the 'Parish Alliance' Nu-Venture shoppers buses has also not sought to reintroduce the service, which says something.
I may be an outlier here, but I'm not entirely convinced the Go-Bus 4 is as nakedly competitive as some make out. It runs broadly hourly with the tendered 5 via Weald, and is quite possible that passengers have encouraged a "more reliable service" to Tonbridge, rather than being stuck in traffic through Tunbridge Wells, and Arriva's then driver shortages. It's a marginal service between schools, where the town services already operate.
Tell me how many trains per hour there are between Sevenoaks and Biggin Hill? Also, a bus serves a different purpose to a train, you are forgetting locations in between (Polhill Centre, Knockholt village which is far from the train station and Green street Green)
Clearly there is no rail station at Biggin Hill, and people generally decide to live where they can access bus or rail services. So someone who works in Sevenoaks is unlikely to move to Biggin Hill - they would live in Bat & Ball for example.
People in Biggin Hill do have a chance to get to Bromley by bus, and thence to London, or to New Addington, then tram to Croydon. Biggin Hill is not a traffic objective in its own right - there isn't much there.
I think Go-Bus serve Polhill Garden Centre; the Arriva 402 used to serve it, but presumably there was not enough demand for the service to support it.
I think the phrase the internet uses here is "Tell me you don't know Sevenoaks without telling me you don't know Sevenoaks". It's the only place I know where Tesco has closed down! I can't think of anything in Croydon that would attract residents from Sevenoaks, or in Sevenoaks that would attract those from Croydon, Knole tourist attraction aside.
Sevenoaks had more public transport. It was withdrawn because of limited use! The town area is one of the few where DRT seems to work.
Biggin Hill needs, or you've looked at a London Country map and thinks it fills in a gap? If you set up your petition table outside the pub in Biggin Hill (land of the blown up ULEZ cameras), how many signatures would you estimate getting?
The Bus Station is in the town. The rail station is in a convenient place for the railway.
Not really. Only the southern side of town is far away - much of the north is reasonably well served by Dunton Green, Bat and Ball, and Sevenoaks itself. Large numbers of people stream out of Sevenoaks station in the evenings, and walk off in all manner of different directions. The car park is actually reasonably small in comparison to some, seemingly "better" placed locations.
There is a town route - Go-Bus service 8. It is not the low density of the town that is the problem, but the significantly higher than average incomes, and associated car use.
Which also suggests this is where people want to go... the 402 also serves the important community of Hildenborough, as well as linking through to Southborough and Tunbridge Wells.
The chances of a night bus in Sevenoaks are even lower than one to Biggin Hill! I think you overestimate the liklihood of people "going out" for the evening further than the local pub.
Exactly! See also below...
I repeat my earlier statement - usage through tiny, comparatively affluent villages is tiny. I know Polhill is more than just a garden centre, but the OAP-for-tea market is covered by the existing service. My one journey may or may not be representative, but the regular driver did say it's rare to get more than half a dozen people on any journey. These really aren't passenger generators.
It would bring them to shop in a struggling high street... when they could just shop at their local town's equally or less-struggling high street... Not sure I'm following the logic there. I suspect the R-routes to Oprington get a much, much higher use from Biggin Hill than a bus to Sevenoaks ever would.
Sorry, but this really isn't TfL's problem. I struggle to see how a bus service would work well for the likely shift-change times at a care home either, at least not compared to a 15 minute train service. I don't deny there are some people who come the other way, but this simply isn't the area it's likely to work.
As with dodecahedron67's comments above, who clearly knows the town, this sums up the situation well, from my experiences. The service was more frequent, but did not bounce back after Covid - primarily because the largely ENCTS or school-based users did not return. Go-Coach had some issues with overcapacity on school buses immediately after Covid, because the work-from-home crows took them by car - a number are or were propped up by BSIP funds. Then, a year or two later, once office work restarted, all of a sudden they were back on the bus, and that double-now-single-deck route needed to go back to double again.
The 308 Saturday service was withdrawn at last tender owing to the very high cost of provision (based on low users). It's noticeable that it remains on the northern section to Vigo. Borough Green parish Council, the lead authority for the 'Parish Alliance' Nu-Venture shoppers buses has also not sought to reintroduce the service, which says something.
I may be an outlier here, but I'm not entirely convinced the Go-Bus 4 is as nakedly competitive as some make out. It runs broadly hourly with the tendered 5 via Weald, and is quite possible that passengers have encouraged a "more reliable service" to Tonbridge, rather than being stuck in traffic through Tunbridge Wells, and Arriva's then driver shortages. It's a marginal service between schools, where the town services already operate.
I also live in the area and I have a different opinion.
I do agree that there are a lot of NIMBYs in Sevenoaks, car centric and resistant to change. But like my family, there are also other recently arrived families and people from London, who have a different outlook regarding buses and public transport in general.
We should aim for car usage reduction in general, as it's good for the environment, and Sevenoaks is a good example of a heavy car centric town.
I also have a car, but as in London, I would much rather take the bus or train given the choice.
Also, I am sure you are familiar with the "build it and they will come" concept.
The Go 3 between Orpington and Sevenoaks is poorly utilised because there are only 3 buses a day, none in the late afternoons/evenings, none on weekends, and it's not connected to the TFL Oysters/monthly pass system.
I do believe that a TFL bus, reliable, with an hourly frequency, weekends included to the likes of Biggin Hill or Orpington would eventually change some mentalities and attract users. I will repeat, there are a number of commuters into Sevenoaks that work in the care and hospitality sector (those are far from rich and on mega wages).
FYI, the monthly cost of a season ticket between Orpington and Sevenoaks is £201 vs a monthly TFL bus pass of £94. A TFL link would benefit those Londoners.
Chatting to older neighbours, some did protest and recall some meetings and protests when the 402 to Bromley was withdrawn a few years ago, so clearly there were residents in Sevenoaks and the areas it connected to, who valued the 402 to Bromley.
P.S - There is a big Tesco in Riverhead/Dunton Green area and a big Sainsburys in Bat & Ball, so not quite sure what you mean by Tesco closing down. Lidl is quite popular here.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Sevenoaks has no bus network because people in Sevenoaks wouldn’t be seen dead on a public bus. I grew up around there and the only times buses were busy were the school run and then the OAPs at 0930.
Look at the cuts there for evidence that it’s dead territory for buses - 402 used to be hourly to Bromley and then every 15min to Tunbridge Wells, 306/308 used to be hourly Sevenoaks - Bluewater, 401 used to be hourly to Westerham, there used to be a 403 to Swanley & Dartford (or something like that), all dead or cut back massively now
Perhaps when you lived there but the demographics are changing/have changed. A lot more former Londoners there now, who don't have that stigma attached to buses that the older residents seem to have.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
