London Buses Discussion

[Edvid]

The main limitation to adding new chargers is grid capacity, which can take up to a year for UKPN to resolve

Or SSE, who are responsible for the majority (perhaps) of west London.

Distribution grid capacity does seem to be the primary pinch point, though I'd be surprised if transmission grid capacity (NGET) isn't an issue on occasion.

 

[Kay_M]

An there's the unfortunate situation with Hackney Garage where electric buses for the D7 were supposed to start in November 2023 (yep, 20 months ago) but have still to see service on that route - they are temporarily allocated to the D8, I think - whilst TfL/Stagecoach try to resolve whatever issues have so far prevented their introduction at this garage.

The buses on the D8 is not temporary as Stagecoach wanted to go down the standard approach which meant the B9TLs allocated to that route was able to get withdrawn. It was confirmed on another forum that the D7 will have another set of buses allocated.

 

[Mikey C]

No most garages that have gained chargers, only have enough to cover the routes being converted with few spares. In many cases well over half the overnight parking spaces cannot be used for charging electric buses.

There are problems with insufficient power supply in parts of London, and accordingly minimum was done in many cases over last 5 years to avoid cost of running new big feeder cables from a main substation location. More recently upgrades to London area grid are now started eg new big substation at Uxbridge Moor (Iver)

Thanks. TfL have been asking for funds to electrify all London's buses by an accelerated 2030, but could the infrastructure match this aspiration anyway?

 

[3rd rail land]

Thanks. TfL have been asking for funds to electrify all London's buses by an accelerated 2030, but could the infrastructure match this aspiration anyway?

Wouldn't that require replacing over half of London's buses? There is no way that the grid could handle the volume of buses that would need charging and upgrading so that this is possible would take considerable time. Plus I would be surprised if there was the physical space to install enough charging points.

 

[Kite159]

Whenever I walk towards Euston/Kings Cross in the mornings and see the peak time limited stop West Croydon - Russell Square 'Superloop' buses heading south empty, it makes me wonder if those buses are the least used in the capital considering they have route branding for that SL route.

(As I would imagine some will only work a West Croydon - Russell Square service in the morning, head empty to wherever arriva parks then, then returns to Russell Square to work a single service to West Croydon, maybe some returning to central London for a 2nd trip)

 

[SteveHFC]

Whenever I walk towards Euston/Kings Cross in the mornings and see the peak time limited stop West Croydon - Russell Square 'Superloop' buses heading south empty, it makes me wonder if those buses are the least used in the capital considering they have route branding for that SL route.

(As I would imagine some will only work a West Croydon - Russell Square service in the morning, head empty to wherever arriva parks then, then returns to Russell Square to work a single service to West Croydon, maybe some returning to central London for a 2nd trip)

The SL6 requires 10 buses to operate the service, with 12 trips to Central London in the morning, and 12 back to West Croydon in the evening. The first two trips in each peak do two trips, obviously running out of service back to the start point. During the day the buses are stabled back at Norwood garage. It also needs 10 drivers, all of whom are on split shifts, and do a maximum of 3 trips in a day.

The working timetable can be found here --> https://www.timetablegraveyard.co.uk/Schedules/prefixed/Schedule_SL6-20250329-65499-MT-SL-1.pdf

So yes, they are among the least used buses on the London network, particularly as they are branded.

 

[Statto]

I've been on the SL6, or rather when it was the X68 a few times, & Southbound buses have been well loaded once they get past Aldwych, & Northbound buses are full once they get past West Norwood, the core passengers on the SL6 are Beulah Hill & South Norwood Hill which is some distance from a Rail station, & just because the poster sees buses empty from Russell Square doesn't mean there empty further down the route.

 

[SteveHFC]

I've been on the SL6, or rather when it was the X68 a few times, & Southbound buses have been well loaded once they get past Aldwych, & Northbound buses are full once they get past West Norwood, the core passengers on the SL6 are Beulah Hill & South Norwood Hill which is some distance from a Rail station, & just because the poster sees buses empty from Russell Square doesn't mean there empty further down the route.

They are empty heading south in the mornings. There is no southbound service in the mornings, just as there is no northbound service in the evenings. The poster stated that he saw the empty buses in the Euston/Kings Cross areas in the mornings.

 

[Marcus Fryer]

They are empty heading south in the mornings. There is no southbound service in the mornings, just as there is no northbound service in the evenings. The poster stated that he saw the empty buses in the Euston/Kings Cross areas in the mornings.

Yes, he meant empty as in ‘out of service’ (returning to Norwood garage).

 

[Kite159]

I've been on the SL6, or rather when it was the X68 a few times, & Southbound buses have been well loaded once they get past Aldwych, & Northbound buses are full once they get past West Norwood, the core passengers on the SL6 are Beulah Hill & South Norwood Hill which is some distance from a Rail station, & just because the poster sees buses empty from Russell Square doesn't mean there empty further down the route.

Empty as in 'not in service', the bus equivalent to ECS moves on trains.

 

[Edirim]

They used to go to Waterloo garage during the peak I thought?

 

[SteveHFC]

They used to go to Waterloo garage during the peak I thought?

They did, until Arriva won the contract to start operating the SL6 earlier this year.

 

[MotCO]

They did, until Arriva won the contract to start operating the SL6 earlier this year.

Yes, Waterloo is a Go-Ahead depot.

 

[DGP]

The buses on the D8 is not temporary as Stagecoach wanted to go down the standard approach which meant the B9TLs allocated to that route was able to get withdrawn. It was confirmed on another forum that the D7 will have another set of buses allocated.

OK, thank you. Are you able to share which other forum this news was posted on?

My understanding was that these buses could only be temporarily allocated to the D8 because:
* the contract for the D8 was awarded with "new buses"
* that the definition of "new buses" was "buses built AFTER the contract award date"
* these buses were built before that date and therefore were non compliant with the contract

Really happy to be corrected.

 

[PGAT]

They used to go to Waterloo garage during the peak I thought?

Now goes to Norwood since Arriva have won the route

 

[Kay_M]

OK, thank you. Are you able to share which other forum this news was posted on?

My understanding was that these buses could only be temporarily allocated to the D8 because:
* the contract for the D8 was awarded with "new buses"
* that the definition of "new buses" was "buses built AFTER the contract award date"
* these buses were built before that date and therefore were non compliant with the contract

Really happy to be corrected.

No worries

Go to this link as its been confirmed that the BZLs will stay at LI. https://tangytango.proboards.com/thread/11436/stagecoach-london?page=837

It also involves other bus routes within stagecoach as there's a few changes that will take place in terms of batches of new buses.

 

[Statto]

I missread the post, Arriva operate the SL6, so pity they can't then operate 468, think TFL have stipulated Superloop branded buses can't interwork/work with any other route, Transport UK operate the 68/N68.

 

[Mikey C]

The new BYD double deckers were on the 210 today.

 

[Kay_M]

The new BYD double deckers were on the 210 today.

It has been for the last few days. They rolled out around mid week.

 

[Statto]

The old X68 when it was operated by Go Ahead did interwork with a few routes, those interworkings stopped when it became part of the Superloop & renumbered to SL6, & TFL state buses can only be used on the SL6 so it creates that situation were buses run dead back to the depot.

Incidently Roger French has written a blog on the SL6.

 

[Mikey C]

It has been for the last few days. They rolled out around mid week.

They're still a rarity though, with most 210s still diesels.

 

[Statto]

I paid a visit to London a couple of days ago, did most of the Superloop but gave up at Croydon, however one thing has occured to me, a few routes have depots at the end of the route, i know controllers have been ordered to maintain headway but what happens when a change of driver is happening on that route, & at the terminus, controllers can't maintain headway then?

 

[PGAT]

I paid a visit to London a couple of days ago, did most of the Superloop but gave up at Croydon, however one thing has occured to me, a few routes have depots at the end of the route, i know controllers have been ordered to maintain headway but what happens when a change of driver is happening on that route, & at the terminus, controllers can't maintain headway then?

You could ask the same question when there’s bumper to bumper traffic, an obstruction or temporary traffic lights. The drivers just have to do their best with what they are able to do. If the service falls apart then buses usually get turned around earlier to restore the headway

 

[Statto]

You could ask the same question when there’s bumper to bumper traffic, an obstruction or temporary traffic lights. The drivers just have to do their best with what they are able to do. If the service falls apart then buses usually get turned around earlier to restore the headway

True enough.

Speaking of bumper to bumper, how long is the Piccadilly Underpass at Hyde Park Corner going to be closed for, went through there a few days ago & everything is gridlocked, certainly comming from the Hammersmith direction, this was around 10am, the bus (although it was not a TFL service, was the 701/702) i was on ended up 30 minutes late at Victoria because of it, even though it got to Hammersmith 10 minutes early.

 

[FOH]

1800 18th July was the last date I saw for reopening. It'll reopen as a single lane carriageway

 

[DGP]

I see that electric buses are slipping out on the D7. 86214 was the first out - it did an evening shift on Tuesday 8th July, since when 86202 and 86205 have also ventured out and 86199 and 86200 are currently battling their way between Poplar and Mile End. These buses are from the 242 batch aren't they?

 

[Edvid]

Today's tender news on LOTS includes Arriva gaining the 96 from Stagecoach and retaining the 229/428/492, all with electric deckers from January 2026. Looks like Dartford garage will be kept for the foreseeable.

I see that electric buses are slipping out on the D7. 86214 was the first out - it did an evening shift on Tuesday 8th July, since when 86202 and 86205 have also ventured out and 86199 and 86200 are currently battling their way between Poplar and Mile End. These buses are from the 242 batch aren't they?

I believe those BZLs were originally ordered for route 277 (except 214; nominally route 58). Route 242 is due Streetdecks (82***) instead.

In any case electrification of Ash Grove garage is still in progress.

 

[Snow1964]

TfL has published its annual bus fleet audit (as at 31 March 2025)
Some snippets from the figures :

Overall fleet size up to 8797 (2024 was 8776)

Electric buses upto 1951 (2024 was 1397)
hybrid buses decreased by 50

Oldest buses, 10 single decks from 2008
Next oldest 63 single, 97 double deck from 2009

438 buses joined fleet in 2024 (2023 was 541)

Average age increased to 8.42 years (was just 5.70 years in 2019)

Biggest Operator Go Ahead at 26.92%, followed by Stagecoach 17.10%, Metroline at 17.01% and Arriva at 16.66%

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2025.pdf

 

[Edvid]

438 buses joined fleet in 2024 (2023 was 541)

Audits do not include buses that were yet to enter service at the time, even if they were registered.

As of the previous audit (31 March 2024) 424 buses in service were registered in 2023. For 541 to be listed this audit means another 117 (net) joined them thereafter, such was the impact of grid capacity etc.

It also depends on when the operators / manufacturers choose to register new builds; Metroline, for instance, opt to register theirs early even if delayed infrastructure work would likely require 12+ months storage before commissioning and entry into service. Ergo year of registration tallies now take 2, possibly 3 years after the audit year to fill up.

 

[bb21]

I've been on the SL6, or rather when it was the X68 a few times, & Southbound buses have been well loaded once they get past Aldwych, & Northbound buses are full once they get past West Norwood, the core passengers on the SL6 are Beulah Hill & South Norwood Hill which is some distance from a Rail station, & just because the poster sees buses empty from Russell Square doesn't mean there empty further down the route.

I must say my experience differs quite a lot from yours. I was led to believe that the X68 loaded quite well evenly in the mornings, but in the afternoon having travelled quite often on it across the first two and the last 3-4 departures of the day (never in the high peaks granted) I have very rarely found the bus to be even half full, and was always able to grab myself a pair of seats downstairs. I actually anecdotally found them much better loaded with people heading for West Norwood up to the Crown Point crossroads than Beulah Hill. I've had little need to travel on it since the migration to the Superloop network so maybe patronage had picked up since then but it was still a very odd use of resources to me at a time when TfL are struggling with finance, especially now with dedicated vehicles.

The old X68 when it was operated by Go Ahead did interwork with a few routes, those interworkings stopped when it became part of the Superloop & renumbered to SL6, & TFL state buses can only be used on the SL6 so it creates that situation were buses run dead back to the depot.

Incidently Roger French has written a blog on the SL6.

Most recently quite heavily with the 188 I believe. The schedules on the 188 used to make very interesting reading.