London Buses Discussion

[Thirteen]

You mean the BYD BD11?

I quickly realised my error and edited it!

 

[Busoccultation]

I assume the BL1 won't be using the BYD 11s that was used for publicity purposes.

I wouldn't rule that completely as Go Ahead won the route and I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered BYD BD11s for the BL1 or even Wright Streetdeck Electroliners.

 

[Thirteen]

I wouldn't rule that completely as Go Ahead won the route and I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered BYD BD11s for the BL1 or even Wright Streetdeck Electroliners.

Given the route starts in late September, I do wonder if they might be a few temporary buses used or will they manage to get 10 BYDs or Electroliners ordered by then.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The contract for the BL1 has been awarded to Go-Ahead.
Starting 27th September

Don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. Go Ahead were the ones who got to use a BYD BD11 on a press tour featuring "Bakerloop" vinyls for the run. Would've been surprised had Go Ahead not won the contract to be honest.

 

[Intro298]

I wouldn't rule that completely as Go Ahead won the route and I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered BYD BD11s for the BL1 or even Wright Streetdeck Electroliners.

Go Ahead have a framework agreement with Wrightbus, so I'd be surprised if BD11s are ordered for the BL1. However there is a chance that since the contract start date is so soon, BD11s intended for other garages that are waiting to get wired up, are diverted to give it a full allocation from Day 1.

 

[PGAT]

Given the route starts in late September, I do wonder if they might be a few temporary buses used or will they manage to get 10 BYDs or Electroliners ordered by then.

No way the new buses would be built and delivered in 3 months. The BD11s EBD100-113 aren't needed for their intended route at the moment so could be used on the BL1 while a permanent order awaits

 

[DaveLondon]

Go Ahead have a framework agreement with Wrightbus, so I'd be surprised if BD11s are ordered for the BL1. However there is a chance that since the contract start date is so soon, BD11s intended for other garages that are waiting to get wired up, are diverted to give it a full allocation from Day 1.

Athough there is a framework agreement with Wright there is no exclusivity as far as I understand it. Volvo BZL are on order as well at present. Time will tell what eventually is ordered although BYD do have a very quick delivery time.

 

[Intro298]

Athough there is a framework agreement with Wright there is no exclusivity as far as I understand it. Volvo BZL are on order as well at present. Time will tell what eventually is ordered although BYD do have a very quick delivery time.

There is no exclusivity, but there is no GB Kite in the same length as the BZLs and the Enviro 100EVs that have been procured, and the other orders since the initial BYD BD11 order have been for Wright Kite/Streetdeck Electroliners. I'd be surprised if Go Ahead don't go down the standardisation route with Wright, as they did up until recently with the BYD Enviro 200/400 EV.

 

[700007]

A couple of other bus websites, carrying story that 3 routes have been awarded tenders including BL1 today

route 149 same operator (Arriva) 2.5 years to 21 April 2028
route 275 same operator (Stagecoach) 7 years (new electric buses)
route BL1 GoAhead at Waterloo for 7 years starting 27 Sept (10 electric buses)

Will look for link that doesn't require registering, and update

The key phrasing just has it as 'electric buses' so the scope is quite open to it being existing electrics that may be refurbished to a high standard. It doesn't explicitly say that it is new.

10 buses actually quite neatly fits the amount of buses being released off the route 230 currently using 20-plate EV buses over at Northumberland Park, which a while ago was retained with brand new electric buses although they have yet to be introduced. I don't think a public (being the key word here!) order has been made yet for what the new 230 buses are but if they have only 3 months to go, they may divert some new/er EVs to Northumberland Park to release the 230s Ee type buses to go under a refurbishment and re-vinyling programme ready for the end of September to use on the Bakerloop. Just my guess, however. Could be very wrong.

 

[Semys12]

At one of my local bus stops, 4 buses call at it. The bus stop has an information board showing the times. It cycles between 4 pages, showing 4 buses at a time on each page, but the next bus is always shown, leaving the other three rows free for times of the other buses. I find that it seems to stay longer on page 2 to 4 rather than page 1, making it extremely frustrating to figure out when the next bus is due.

Why does the information board behave in this way? What is the value of showing that a bus is 30 mins away (page 4) if there are other buses of the same route 5 or 10 mins away?

Pinner Station

Live arrivals for Pinner Station stop.

tfl.gov.uk

O

 

[Simon75]

So how many garages have electric charging, and how easy it to upgrade older buildings?

 

[Edvid]

So how many garages have electric charging

Going by Robert Munster's LBR site, I'd say just over half of the 75-80 garages (inc. outstations) that TfL-contracted operators use have some degree of charging capability. Fully electrified garages or those approaching that state - Edgware (Metroline), for instance - are still few and far between, though.

 

[PGAT]

Going by Robert Munster's LBR site, I'd say just over half of the 75-80 garages (inc. outstations) that TfL-contracted operators use have some degree of charging capability. Fully electrified garages or those approaching that state - Edgware (Metroline), for instance - are still few and far between, though.

I believe Sutton is the only garage that only has electrics

 

[renegademaster]

South Croydon has charging capabilities but since 312 changes, doesn't actually use them

 

[Railguy1]

I've noticed that recently. It's a change from how they used to work when all pages stayed on for the same amount of time.

If you don't have a lot of buses it'll only show those due in the next 30 minutes.

There was discussion within TfL about not showing routes with earlier buses predicted but that option wasn't chosen.

Citymapper's app seems a nice way of doing it, listing routes then the number of minutes away for up to 3 buses on each.

Sorry for the late reply. Yes, I use Citymapper but sometimes I don’t feel safe or it’s raining and the bus stop (which has cover) is busy. I wonder why they picked that option. At least using equal times I can be assured of when the first page will be shown.

The advantage of having more than one bus on the same route showing is that if the first bus turns up full & standing and you know there’s a second bus close behind you can wait for a less crowded bus.

There are evidently better ways of displaying the information without making it harder to see when the next bus is.

 

[Thirteen]

Was reading the TfL Investment Board meeting notes and the card readers are being replaced alongside the introduction of iBus2, seems well overdue as those card readers must be around 22 years old.

 

[Edvid]

Was reading the TfL Investment Board meeting notes and the card readers are being replaced alongside the introduction of iBus2

Speaking of iBus2, completion of its detailed design has been delayed again (Programmes and Investment Committee papers for 2 July 2025, page 31):

The interface for the on-bus card reader (critical interface for payments on buses) was not delivered which led to an overall delay to the project. The milestone was not met in Q4 2024/25 due to time lost in the design phase. The mitigation to the card reader is now being delivered through an alternative solution and is forecast for Q2 2025/26

The project to put these new card readers in buses and gatelines (Hina) is also being held up, with no updated timeline given at present. iBus2 / Hina seem interdependent to a degree so I'm wondering if that's a reason for the former being delayed; Hina is also connected to the next revenue collection contract (Proteus), awarding of which is weeks away according to Mobility Payments.

 

[Thirteen]

Speaking of iBus2, completion of its detailed design has been delayed again (Programmes and Investment Committee papers for 2 July 2025, page 31):


The project to put these new card readers in buses and gatelines (Hina) is also being held up, with no updated timeline given at present. iBus2 / Hina seem interdependent to a degree so I'm wondering if that's a reason for the former being delayed; Hina is also connected to the next revenue collection contract (Proteus), awarding of which is weeks away according to Mobility Payments.

I wonder if they'll make the card readers have colour screens or at least LED?

 

[Snow1964]

There are about 40 brand new BYD double deckers in London red at Southampton docks, in a compound alongside Ocean Road. Some have Arriva names, some have Metroline names, others didn't appear to have names (but as they are parked in rows couldn't see sides of many of them).

I think there are now about 2100 electric buses operating in London, and a few hundred more (including these) built, but not yet in service. There are about 8800 buses in London fleet, so getting on for a quarter are now electric.

 

[Edvid]

Recent tender results on LOTS include new electrics for the 200, so one wonders where GAL's Metrodeckers will go.

Meanwhile some of their new Streetdeck Electroliners are on Wimbledon shuttle duty.

 

[Thirteen]

Recent tender results on LOTS include new electrics for the 200, so one wonders where GAL's Metrodeckers will go.

Meanwhile some of their new Streetdeck Electroliners are on Wimbledon shuttle duty.

Didn't the 200 have its original electric buses removed due to the fire?

 

[PGAT]

Didn't the 200 have its original electric buses remove due to the fire?

For about a year or so and have since been gradually entering service again. Though as they are so unreliable, and Merton’s charging facilities are struggling with the heat at the moment, many haven’t seen service in a while. 100% going to the scrap god when their time comes in a year or so.

 

[Mikey C]

There are about 40 brand new BYD double deckers in London red at Southampton docks, in a compound alongside Ocean Road. Some have Arriva names, some have Metroline names, others didn't appear to have names (but as they are parked in rows couldn't see sides of many of them).

I think there are now about 2100 electric buses operating in London, and a few hundred more (including these) built, but not yet in service. There are about 8800 buses in London fleet, so getting on for a quarter are now electric.

An impressive number of electric buses in such a short length of time, and also impressive how mainstream the technology has quickly become.

Have TfL ever stated the criteria they use for converting routes, as it always surprised me how few central London routes have been converted. For example where I live in Golders Green there are 3 bus routes which enter Zone 1 (13, 139 and 328), and none of them have electric buses yet (all have hybrid double deckers).

 

[PGAT]

An impressive number of electric buses in such a short length of time, and also impressive how mainstream the technology has quickly become.

Have TfL ever stated the criteria they use for converting routes, as it always surprised me how few central London routes have been converted. For example where I live in Golders Green there are 3 bus routes which enter Zone 1 (13, 139 and 328), and none of them have electric buses yet (all have hybrid double deckers).

TfL don't really have a criteria for converting routes, they just choose the bid from operators which is the best value for money. Many hybrid routes are perfectly compliant to keep using them for another full 7 year contract and that usually ends up cheaper than one where it converts to electrics.

 

[Snow1964]

Have TfL ever stated the criteria they use for converting routes, as it always surprised me how few central London routes have been converted. For example where I live in Golders Green there are 3 bus routes which enter Zone 1 (13, 139 and 328), and none of them have electric buses yet (all have hybrid double deckers).

It tends to be dependent upon alternative bids by operators. TfL default tender is nowadays 7 years with electric buses, and operators can offer cheaper alternatives if they have suitable buses.

A number of tenders are being won with diesel (single deckers) or hybrid (double decks) using buses that are 7-10 years old, with a tender term of 3 years.

Of course this saves TfL money short term by utilising part life buses, however it will increase the number of routes whose contract expires 2029. So will be creating a problem of bunching of tenders in the future.

The 3 year awards were expiring 2028, now into 2029 as contracts ideally start around 7-11 months after award. Many of the electric conversions take upto 15 months from contract start date due to delays in equipping garages, and until recently the long lead time of electric buses (the delivery timescale has reduced).

TfL still would like to fully electrify the fleet by 2030 (if the Government pays big subsidies), otherwise will be 2032-2034 (target date seems to vary over time, and multiple vague years have appeared in the past). This muddle of years when buses might be converted seems to be the reason for the interim 3 year awards, so not stuck with diesel buses mid contract if earlier date becomes achievable.

 

[MotCO]

TfL don't really have a criteria for converting routes, they just choose the bid from operators which is the best value for money. Many hybrid routes are perfectly compliant to keep using them for another full 7 year contract and that usually ends up cheaper than one where it converts to electrics.

Recent tender awards for hybrid buses are only for three years, ending in 2029.

 

[Mikey C]

It tends to be dependent upon alternative bids by operators. TfL default tender is nowadays 7 years with electric buses, and operators can offer cheaper alternatives if they have suitable buses.

A number of tenders are being won with diesel (single deckers) or hybrid (double decks) using buses that are 7-10 years old, with a tender term of 3 years.

Of course this saves TfL money short term by utilising part life buses, however it will increase the number of routes whose contract expires 2029. So will be creating a problem of bunching of tenders in the future.

The 3 year awards were expiring 2028, now into 2029 as contracts ideally start around 7-11 months after award. Many of the electric conversions take upto 15 months from contract start date due to delays in equipping garages, and until recently the long lead time of electric buses (the delivery timescale has reduced).

TfL still would like to fully electrify the fleet by 2030 (if the Government pays big subsidies), otherwise will be 2032-2034 (target date seems to vary over time, and multiple vague years have appeared in the past). This muddle of years when buses might be converted seems to be the reason for the interim 3 year awards, so not stuck with diesel buses mid contract if earlier date becomes achievable.

I'm assuming most of the garages are converted now. Would it be correct to assume that when a garage gets its first electric bus, the garage is electrified with enough charging capacity to power all the buses in it, even if only a fraction are actually electric at the time. Thus introducing new electric buses is as easy as new diesel ones now.

Clearly new electric buses are more expensive than reusing existing buses, and London has a lot of midlife hybrid double deckers, which are less transferable elsewhere than E200 type single deckers. Plus there are still the Borismasters which presumably will be used until more or less life expired.

But it does mean that central London seems to be getting fewer electric routes than you might expect. From an air pollution pov, I'd want to get diesel buses out of Oxford Street, Regent Street, Piccadilly, Euston Road, Trafalgar Square more quickly.

 

[Snow1964]

I'm assuming most of the garages are converted now. Would it be correct to assume that when a garage gets its first electric bus, the garage is electrified with enough charging capacity to power all the buses in it, even if only a fraction are actually electric at the time. Thus introducing new electric buses is as easy as new diesel ones now.

No most garages that have gained chargers, only have enough to cover the routes being converted with few spares. In many cases well over half the overnight parking spaces cannot be used for charging electric buses.

There are problems with insufficient power supply in parts of London, and accordingly minimum was done in many cases over last 5 years to avoid cost of running new big feeder cables from a main substation location. More recently upgrades to London area grid are now started eg new big substation at Uxbridge Moor (Iver)

 

[DGP]

No most garages that have gained chargers, only have enough to cover the routes being converted with few spares. In many cases well over half the overnight parking spaces cannot be used for charging electric buses.

There are problems with insufficient power supply in parts of London, and accordingly minimum was done in many cases over last 5 years to avoid cost of running new big feeder cables from a main substation location. More recently upgrades to London area grid are now started eg new big substation at Uxbridge Moor (Iver)

An there's the unfortunate situation with Hackney Garage where electric buses for the D7 were supposed to start in November 2023 (yep, 20 months ago) but have still to see service on that route - they are temporarily allocated to the D8, I think - whilst TfL/Stagecoach try to resolve whatever issues have so far prevented their introduction at this garage.

 

[Intro298]

I'm assuming most of the garages are converted now. Would it be correct to assume that when a garage gets its first electric bus, the garage is electrified with enough charging capacity to power all the buses in it, even if only a fraction are actually electric at the time. Thus introducing new electric buses is as easy as new diesel ones now.

Chargers are installed on a route by route basis, and costs to install charging equipment will be considered when bidding for a route. The main limitation to adding new chargers is grid capacity, which can take up to a year for UKPN to resolve, which leaves some electric buses to gather bus, or operate on other routes until a garage is wired up.

A recent example is the P12 which is operated by Go-Ahead from Peckham (PM) garage, which has been on an electric contract since October 2023, yet is still mostly diesel operated.

Clearly new electric buses are more expensive than reusing existing buses, and London has a lot of midlife hybrid double deckers, which are less transferable elsewhere than E200 type single deckers. Plus there are still the Borismasters which presumably will be used until more or less life expired.

But it does mean that central London seems to be getting fewer electric routes than you might expect. From an air pollution pov, I'd want to get diesel buses out of Oxford Street, Regent Street, Piccadilly, Euston Road, Trafalgar Square more quickly.

For the past few years (since 2020 if memory serves right) TfL have mandated that all their bus routes that operate in the congestion charge zone are fully hybrid or zero-emission, so those areas that you've listed have already operated with cleaner buses for some years. Occasionally non-compliant buses do operate on routes that enter the zone, but in these instances operators are fined.