London Buses Discussion

[Intro298]

Should TfL tighten up journey times and reduce recovery time? The prevailing view on the Bee Network thread is that increasing running times and PVR is undesirable as it costs money and increased journey times makes buses less attractive to passengers. They would prefer buses to run late and/or have long waits between buses.

More slack with running times and increased recovery time helps routes recover from any disruption so reducing both would just make the network even more unreliable. More thought needs to be given to regulating buses however. Today I was on a 159 that regulated for a while in Brixton just to end up getting curtailed to Piccadilly Circus because it was so late and the one behind was only 2 mins away. Makes no sense to regulate a bus if it's already running late.

 

[Goldfish62]

Should TfL tighten up journey times and reduce recovery time? The prevailing view on the Bee Network thread is that increasing running times and PVR is undesirable as it costs money and increased journey times makes buses less attractive to passengers. They would prefer buses to run late and/or have long waits between buses.

Bee Network is a complete mess. They're trying to run high frequency services on an individual journey punctuality basis rather than by headway, plus the operators are not geared up for regulating services in a regulated environment. This often results in buses ending up running later and later, resulting in whole journeys chopped and large gaps in service. Bunching of buses late at night isn't unusual. Zero control and oversight!

Whoever has claimed that passengers would prefer late buses and long waits is talking nonsense. It's been consistently shown time and time again through research that it's the whole journey time metric that counts, including the walk to the bus stop and the length of the wait until the bus arrives as well as the actual length of the bus journey and the walk to reach the final destination. That's the metric that's used worldwide by transport authorities.

That's of course not to say that in London there are some schedules that are too slack at times, and sometimes poor regulation.

 

[MotCO]

Route 358 still has yet to see a full 100% Irizar ie operation. Today, only 12 Irizars have been out and about, out of a fleet of 20. Is there any reason why a full turn-out has not been achieved?

 

[PGAT]

Route 358 still has yet to see a full 100% Irizar ie operation. Today, only 12 Irizars have been out and about, out of a fleet of 20. Is there any reason why a full turn-out has not been achieved?

Loads of buses keep breaking down en-route. The reliability of these things is not looking good

 

[pieswick]

Currently witnessing an out of service Irizar broken down on crofton road, outside Orpington station (not even at the bus stop) causing minor mayhem, not good!

 

[MotCO]

Currently witnessing an out of service Irizar broken down on crofton road, outside Orpington station (not even at the bus stop) causing minor mayhem, not good!

I saw a Streetlite being towed back to Green Street Green today. Not a good day for that depot!

 

[LT586]

Noted whilst out and about today that a number of LT's have now been converted to camera mirrors - is this the start of a wholesale programme to replace the wing mirrors with cameras on these vehicles? Noted today were buses of both Transport UK and Stagecoach including this one:

SCoach London LT244 Aug24

Holborn Viaduct, Aug 2024. Note that this bus is now fitted with camera mirrors in place of the traditional wing mirrors.

www.flickr.com

It seems that refurb buses are also receiving digital destinations in place of traditional blinds to:

Arriva London HV283 Jul24

Terminus Place, Victoria. Jul 2024. Following a recent refurb this bus is now fitted with electronic destination displays.

www.flickr.com

If anyone here is a bus driver, would know the mirror arms give you a better perspective of your width as you had the nearside mirror overhand to gauge, as it’s part of the training before your test. But they need to update it to include camera mirrors as those projections, they call it in the theory modules, aren’t there. On the upside, it helps when pulling into a bus stop you can get a lot closer.

 

[MotCO]

Route 358 is being affected by emergency water works, such that it is terminating short at Elmers End, and will not be able to access the pantograph rechargers at Crystal Palace. i hope the buses have enough charge to last a return journey to Orpington, and that they have sufficient capacity / time to recharge at Orpington.

 

[talldave]

Route 358 is being affected by emergency water works, such that it is terminating short at Elmers End, and will not be able to access the pantograph rechargers at Crystal Palace. i hope the buses have enough charge to last a return journey to Orpington, and that they have sufficient capacity / time to recharge at Orpington.

It's a bad week for Crystal Palace, no buses and no water. Thames Water have a lot to answer for!

Ironic, also, that Thames Water decided that this was the week to send out our 2025 water bill - up 42% on last year .

 

[londonbridge]

I keep seeing and hearing complaints about the current level of service on Route 154, from West Croydon to Morden, with delays and other issues resulting in multiple busses terminating short. Apparently one proposal is to split it into two routes, splitting at Wallington?

 

[chopperman21]

VH45189 based at Stamford Brook has in a slightly surprising move now received new First Bus logos - picture

 

[Simon75]

VH45189 based at Stamford Brook has in a slightly surprising move now received new First Bus logos - picture

Has the RATP London takeover been completed now ?

 

[Edvid]

Papers for the Programmes and Investment Committee session on 5 March are now up.

TfL are now exploring another method of bus garage electrification (page 92):

3.25 On 3 December 2024, the Bus Garage Power project was initiated. It seeks to accelerate efforts to achieve a zero-emission bus fleet by overcoming time and cost barriers associated with converting garages to support electric buses. It is thought that some locations may take too long and could cost significantly more to secure power and install the necessary infrastructure if we rely on the ‘business as usual’ approach of installing power upgrades via the Distribution Network Operators. Instead, we are exploring whether the garages could source the required power directly from our private power network (i.e. LU), in the cases where it is deemed to represent better value for money and expedite the delivery of a zero-emission fleet. While initial activities are being funded by operational expenditure, capital funding will be sought within the Programme from 2025/26 until project completion.

On a related note, more than 20% of the bus fleet (1,800+) is now ZE at point of use.

An update on the Thamesmead Bus Transit scheme (pages 153-154):

4.7 In November 2023, the previous Government announced that, subject to business case approval, it would provide us with £23m capital funding from the BIL Fund to design and implement a bus transit between Thamesmead, Woolwich and Abbey Wood. A condition of this funding was that it had to be spent by the end of financial year 2025/26. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government has now agreed a programme extension to 2029.

4.8 The feasibility costs associated with the development of the Bus Transit scheme have been included in the draft TfL Budget for 2025/26. These costs do not require Programme and Project Authority. The capital costs associated with the scheme have not been included in the draft TfL 2025/26 Budget on the basis that funding from HE has not yet been confirmed and inclusion of this spend in the Budget could lead to TfL incurring significant cost at risk, i.e. before funding is confirmed.

4.9 Once funding from HE has been confirmed then we will seek Programme and Project Authority and Financial Authority at officer level, in accordance with Standing Orders. Procurement Authority will also be sought through separate requests at the time and in line with TfL Standing Orders.

4.10 During 2024, we have worked closely with HE to prepare the business case, which was submitted to the London BIL Board at the end of February 2025. In due course, TfL will work with HE to agree a funding agreement. We are currently spending on feasibility works at risk until this funding agreement is confirmed, because the feasibility work is required to determine the delivery costs for HE to incorporate into their business case and funding offer.

4.11 Feasibility design progressed last year, but delays were encountered due to the cyber security incident in September 2024. Access to key systems such as Computer Aided Design was limited, which put additional pressure on an already challenging programme, and is now due to complete in early 2025. The deadline extension is allowing more time to revisit the scope of the scheme and to deliver a more ambitious proposition.

4.12 Separate to the infrastructure improvements funded through the BIL Fund, we are proposing to introduce a Superloop service in Thamesmead, supporting the housing growth and regeneration aims in the area. A public consultation will be launched in March 2025 on the proposed service. A further public consultation is planned for autumn 2025 on the bus transit related infrastructure needed for the scheme.

In addition (see page 124) - Final user acceptance testing of Adiona 1.0, Countdown 3 contract award and completion of iBus2 detailed design are all scheduled for March.

Has the RATP London takeover been completed now ?

No. First will make a formal announcement when the sale is complete.

 

[Thirteen]

I wonder where the 25 Volvo BZL buses which Go Ahead has ordered will go? There's all single deckers but I'm not sure which route it will go to.

 

[PGAT]

I wonder where the 25 Volvo BZL buses which Go Ahead has ordered will go? There's all single deckers but I'm not sure which route it will go to.

They should be going to routes 299, 389, 399, R2 and R11

 

[Edvid]

The Silvertown Tunnel cyclist shuttle buses will have their own livery.

Can you spot the unusual feature of London's newest bus that only cyclists can use?

Only cyclists will be allowed to use the new bus through Sadiq Khan’s controversial road tunnel under the Thames

www.standard.co.uk

The latest addition to London’s bus fleet has been unveiled – and it’s not red.

The £2m Silvertown tunnel bike bus will feature a silver and blue livery to distinguish it from the rest of the capital’s 8,500-strong bus fleet.

This is because the shuttle service can only be used by people with a bike – and not by “foot” passengers.

 

[Thirteen]

It's interesting that TfL have started relaxing some of their own rules with the bus livery as well as moving towards LED signage whereas before it had to be blinds.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I suspect that they have not so much relaxed the livery where this is concerned as specified it. And I'll wager that the LED thing is more cost than anything else

 

[johncrossley]

as well as moving towards LED signage whereas before it had to be blinds.

Electronic blinds now offer extremely high resolution, almost indistinguishable from paper blinds. TfL stuck with paper blinds before because that wasn't the case.

 

[LUYMun]

The consultation into the SL11 route has opened today and will run until 13 April. It is essentially planning to replace the 472 with some deviation to avoid Woolwich town centre. Judging by the map provided, SL11 would make prominent stops at Millennium Village, Belmarsh Prison and Thamesmead as well as adjacent to Charlton, Woolwich/Woolwich Arsenal and Plumstead stations but not Woolwich Dockyard. No night service is planned for the SL11 so a night route N472 would operate with all stops observed.

Link to consultation: https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/sl11-superloop

 

[pdsilva]

Anyone know why Metroline buses tend to have no black borders around the windows and no black headlights? I just noticed this when I returned to London

 

[Intro298]

Anyone know why Metroline buses tend to have no black borders around the windows and no black headlights? I just noticed this when I returned to London

This is just on their repainted buses, they give their buses the 'tomato' treatment instead of retaining black borders like other companies.

 

[MotCO]

This is just on their repainted buses, they give their buses the 'tomato' treatment instead of retaining black borders like other companies.

Presumably on the basis of costs.

 

[Mikey C]

It looks rubbish on their repainted E400MMCs. Like when routemasters had their radiator grill brightwork painted as well, just lazy.

 

[Thirteen]

Go Ahead has newish buses for the 170 which now has the new logo and LED signage on the outside, the interior is the same as before but cleaner.

 

[Goldfish62]

Go Ahead has newish buses for the 170 which now has the new logo and LED signage on the outside, the interior is the same as before but cleaner.

10-year old E200s displaced from other routes. The interiors are refurbished.

 

[Edvid]

The cycle shuttle now has its own page, including exterior and interior shots of one of the repurposed buses.

Silvertown Tunnel cycle shuttle

Cyclists will be able to use our cycle shuttle bus to get through the Silvertown Tunnel

tfl.gov.uk

One week before that starts, Metroline's Hertfordshire operations will end as the PB1 follows the 242, 305 & 84 in being transferred to another (to be determined) operator.

March 2025

This is a summary of the forthcoming changes to local bus services in Hertfordshire in March 2025.

www.intalink.org.uk

PB1 Potters Bar to Rushfield (Circular)
Metroline
Service being withdrawn. Awaiting new bus operator registration.
From 30.03.25.

 

[LUYMun]

One week before that starts, Metroline's Hertfordshire operations will end as the PB1 follows the 242, 305 & 84 in being transferred to another (to be determined) operator.

UNO will be taking over the PB1.

 

[Edvid]

Redacted investigation reports on the pair of Go-Ahead electric buses that caught fire in January 2024 (Me12 / SEe232) were recently published by FoI request. Neither cause was battery-related.

Our Ref: FOI-3338-2425

Thank you for your request received on 19 January 2025 asking for information about the investigations into two bus fires.

Your request has been considered in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act and our information access policy. I can confirm that we do hold the information you require.

The safety of staff and customers is always our top priority, and together with our bus operators will not hesitate to take further action as appropriate to ensure the network remains safe. We regularly engage with bus operators, manufacturers, suppliers and the London Fire Brigade to address the potential of risk posed by bus fires.

Following the investigation into the Putney bus fire and working with the DVSA, the manufacturer has added an additional layer of protection, with new software introduced that ensures the heating system cannot activate when a bus is charging. In response to the Wimbledon fire, alterations have been made to the model of bus involved to improve the resilience of the electrical wiring and fuseboard.

Please find the requested information attached.

 

[Goldfish62]

Redacted investigation reports on the pair of Go-Ahead electric buses that caught fire in January 2024 (Me12 / SEe232) were recently published by FoI request. Neither cause was battery-related.

Correct. In both cases there's have likely been the same fire had they been diesels. Fortunately in the Putney case the fire took place nowhere near the batteries.