London Buses Discussion

[Intro298]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2025 ==

Also saw a picture from a friend of mine showing one of the new BYD BD11 electrics already received ‘Bakerloop’ branding, so the timeframe may not be overly optimistic after all.
View attachment 173701

That bus is likely in the livery just for a press release as was done with a bus when the first SUPERLOOP consultations were released.

 

[Goldfish62]

That bus is likely in the livery just for a press release as was done with a bus when the first SUPERLOOP consultations were released.

Absolutely. It's off the 320 allocation and been temporarily vinyled. The advert frames are a giveaway. All stuff delivered in Superloop livery have arrived without frames. . Also, do I see Bakerloo line moquette on the lower deck?

 

[PTR 444]

I believe London United had them refitted with Cummins engines and some had their concertina doors swapped for the more modern ones. I also believe they were known as the Dart variants after the popular midibus of the time. This YouTube video showed them in action:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2025 ==

In other news, TFL have made plans to launch the Superloop 2 add-on to the existing network, with a potential to introduce them by the end of this year: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e1pj8v50xo



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2025 ==

Also saw a picture from a friend of mine showing one of the new BYD BD11 electrics already received ‘Bakerloop’ branding, so the timeframe may not be overly optimistic after all.
View attachment 173701

Looking at the livery. it appears that the “Bakerloop” Route will be numbered BL1 but remain part of the wider Superloop network. How might this fit in with the other existing and proposed routes? Will North Greenwich - Thamesmead be numbered JL1 (Jubiloop) and Hammersmith - Hounslow PL1 (Piccaloop) to relfect which Tube lines they connect to?

As for the orbital routes, would I be right in thinking that they will be allocated SL11-SL20 to follow on from the SL1-SL10 numbering pattern.

 

[Goldfish62]

Looking at the livery. it appears that the “Bakerloop” Route will be numbered BL1 but remain part of the wider Superloop network. How might this fit in with the other existing and proposed routes? Will North Greenwich - Thamesmead be numbered JL1 (Jubiloop) and Hammersmith - Hounslow PL1 (Piccaloop) to relfect which Tube lines they connect to?

As for the orbital routes, would I be right in thinking that they will be allocated SL11-SL20 to follow on from the SL1-SL10 numbering pattern.

The BL1 is essentially part of a political campaign to get the Bakerloo line extension funded. The brown line diagram and route number emphasise the intention. Think of the route as a long-term rail replacement service.

 

[Dstock7080]

BL1 Bakerloop bus consultation on TfL website:

BL1 – Proposed express bus route between Waterloo and Lewisham town centre

We have now published our consultation report, which includes a decision on the future of the new BL1 bus route, and our response to the key issues raised during consultation. You can see the results of the consultation at glance, or you can click on the Latest news

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

 

[stevieinselby]

The Richmond to Wimbledon Superloop service sounds like a faster 493 and Ealing Broadway to Kingston sounds like a faster 65.

Sure, there will be plenty of Superloop routes that are covering the same territory as existing services, because those are journeys that people want to make, so it shouldn't be a surprise that in many cases there are already routes running that way.

 

[PGAT]

BL1 Bakerloop bus consultation on TfL website:

BL1 – Proposed express bus route between Waterloo and Lewisham town centre

We have now published our consultation report, which includes a decision on the future of the new BL1 bus route, and our response to the key issues raised during consultation. You can see the results of the consultation at glance, or you can click on the Latest news

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

Interesting update on the SL5 in the FAQs:

When will route SL5 operate with a double deck service?

The necessary tree pruning work on South Eden Park Road, that would allow double decking the service has now between completed. We are planning further route test but expect double deck buses to enter service this year.

There are also mentions of the SL11 and 12

What other new routes are planned as part of Superloop expansion?

Our plans for new route BL1 form the first of three further bus routes we would like to add to the Superloop network. During 2025, public consultations are planned proposing routes between:

• Lewisham, Elephant & Castle and Waterloo, via the Old Kent Road (BL1)

• North Greenwich and Abbey Wood, via Woolwich (SL11)

• Gants Hill and Rainham (Ferry Lane), via Romford (SL12)

This information remains subject to the outcome of each public consultation.

 

[LUYMun]

Also, do I see Bakerloo line moquette on the lower deck?

From Geoff Marshall's Flickr account, yes!

BL1 Bus Moqeutte

Same as the Bakerloo Line!

flickr.com

 

[Bishopstone]

BL1 Bakerloop bus consultation on TfL website

I'm not convinced of the need to run the BL1 up to Waterloo given the Bakerloo line, and other bus routes, already cover the section from Elephant & Castle well. I'd add some mileage at the southern end, instead - Catford, maybe.

 

[MotCO]

I'm not convinced of the need to run the BL1 up to Waterloo given the Bakerloo line, and other bus routes, already cover the section from Elephant & Castle well. I'd add some mileage at the southern end, instead - Catford, maybe.

Maybe the Bakerloo line does not have the capacity to absorb more passengers at Elephant & Castle, in which case how would an extended Bakerloo Line cope?

 

[dmncf]

It's a shame that the Bakerloo line doesn't have any stations with step-free access in that area, because that would be a good criterion for choosing the interchange point from Bakerloo line to BL1 Bakerloop bus.

 

[Thirteen]

Sure, there will be plenty of Superloop routes that are covering the same territory as existing services, because those are journeys that people want to make, so it shouldn't be a surprise that in many cases there are already routes running that way.

The 493 can be deadly slow especially during peak hours when it hits Barnes and East Sheen, I wonder if the Superloop could follow the 493 from Richmond to Putney Heath but then take the same route as the 93 via Wimbledon from Tibbet's Corner onwards? My guess for a route for would be Richmond Station, Roehampton, Putney Heath, Wimbledon Village and Wimbledon Bus Station.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm not convinced of the need to run the BL1 up to Waterloo given the Bakerloo line, and other bus routes, already cover the section from Elephant & Castle well. I'd add some mileage at the southern end, instead - Catford, maybe.

The Bakerloo line extension isn't planned to go to Catford.

 

[PGAT]

The Bakerloo line extension isn't planned to go to Catford.

Well TfL have proposed extending it beyond Lewisham to Hayes and Beckenham Junction which would go through Catford Bridge. Leaving that aside, if it’s a cost effective way to boost patronage and provide new links then why not extend it to Catford? The BL1 was originally proposed to run as far as Elephant & Castle in the manifesto but it later got extended to Waterloo even though it isn’t part of the Bakerloo line “extension”

 

[Mikey C]

Well TfL have proposed extending it beyond Lewisham to Hayes and Beckenham Junction which would go through Catford Bridge. Leaving that aside, if it’s a cost effective way to boost patronage and provide new links then why not extend it to Catford? The BL1 was originally proposed to run as far as Elephant & Castle in the manifesto but it later got extended to Waterloo even though it isn’t part of the Bakerloo line “extension”

It would make no sense to kick everyone off the bus at the building site which is Elephant, with its pokey Bakerloo Line station, rather than continuing to the far more useful Waterloo, along the Bakerloo route.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well TfL have proposed extending it beyond Lewisham to Hayes and Beckenham Junction which would go through Catford Bridge. Leaving that aside, if it’s a cost effective way to boost patronage and provide new links then why not extend it to Catford? The BL1 was originally proposed to run as far as Elephant & Castle in the manifesto but it later got extended to Waterloo even though it isn’t part of the Bakerloo line “extension”

The BL1 is effectively a rail replacement service until the Bakerloo line extension is built. Funding is currently being sought for the extension as far as Lewisham. That is what the BL1 is replicating.

I see no problem whatsoever in having an overlap between the existing Bakerloo line and the BL1 at the northern end. In fact with the better interchange facilities at Waterloo it seems throughly sensible to me. And it's not creating new links which would be removed once the extension is eventually open.

 

[PTR 444]

Well TfL have proposed extending it beyond Lewisham to Hayes and Beckenham Junction which would go through Catford Bridge. Leaving that aside, if it’s a cost effective way to boost patronage and provide new links then why not extend it to Catford? The BL1 was originally proposed to run as far as Elephant & Castle in the manifesto but it later got extended to Waterloo even though it isn’t part of the Bakerloo line “extension”

The issue with extending it to Catford is that the initial phase of the Bakerloo Line Tube extension is only planned to go to Lewisham. Build the Tube extension and the case for the Bakerloop bus route falls off a cliff. This leaves you with the situation where passengers once had a direct bus link between Elephant & Castle and Catford, but now have to change modes at Lewisham.

Besides, most passengers wishing to travel between Elephant and Catford will just hop on a direct Thameslink train, which only takes 22 minutes.

 

[LUYMun]

It's a shame that the Bakerloo line doesn't have any stations with step-free access in that area, because that would be a good criterion for choosing the interchange point from Bakerloo line to BL1 Bakerloop bus.

If the new platforms for the Bakerloo's Elephant & Castle do go ahead, the BL1 would certainly be a partial replacement service when the section south of Waterloo or Lambeth North is closed for the duration of the works. Terminating the BL1 at Waterloo also gives step-free access to the Jubilee line, which parallels the Bakerloo for most of the West End and has more stations with step-free access than the Bakerloo could potentially be.

 

[Dr_Paul]

The 493 can be deadly slow especially during peak hours when it hits Barnes and East Sheen, I wonder if the Superloop could follow the 493 from Richmond to Putney Heath but then take the same route as the 93 via Wimbledon from Tibbet's Corner onwards? My guess for a route for would be Richmond Station, Roehampton, Putney Heath, Wimbledon Village and Wimbledon Bus Station.

That would seem to be most likely route. But would it go from Roehampton via the Green Man at the top of Putney Hill to Tibbet's Corner, or along to the A3 and directly there? The South Circular can indeed get clogged badly, so for that part of the route the SL won't be much faster than the 493, even with a small number of stops, say at The Bull at East Sheen and at the north end of Roehampton Avenue (what used to be the Red Rover).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2025 ==

The Richmond to Wimbledon Superloop service sounds like a faster 493 and Ealing Broadway to Kingston sounds like a faster 65.

That's what it seems to be. The 65 is a reasonably quick route, albeit slowed down by the constant 20mph limit, at least from Kingston to Richmond, but it can get horribly clogged at Kew Bridge through Brentford up to the Great West Road. Either way, the SL won't be much faster than the 65, again even with a small number of stops, say at Ham, Richmond, Victoria Gate (Kew Gardens), Kew Bridge, Brentford, South Ealing.

 

[sprunt]

I think the BL1 is a great idea in principle - when I lived in Lewisham I used to visit Burgess Park quite a bit so I'd have loved an express bus there - but in practice there are a lot of stopping buses along Old Kent Road, will it not just get held up in the bus lanes behind them?

 

[nick291]

BL1 Bakerloop bus consultation on TfL website:

BL1 – Proposed express bus route between Waterloo and Lewisham town centre

We have now published our consultation report, which includes a decision on the future of the new BL1 bus route, and our response to the key issues raised during consultation. You can see the results of the consultation at glance, or you can click on the Latest news

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

So they can fund vanity projects like this when they are supposedly hemorrhaging money, but don't have any budget for operators like Sullivan Buses. Also, I highly doubt passengers are going to use the bus between Waterloo and Lewisham when the train is faster.

 

[johncrossley]

So they can fund vanity projects like this when they are supposedly hemorrhaging money, but don't have any budget for operators like Sullivan Buses. Also, I highly doubt passengers are going to use the bus between Waterloo and Lewisham when the train is faster.

Which train runs between Burgess Park and Waterloo, or between Burgess Park and Lewisham?

Why should TfL bankroll Sullivan Buses and other small operators when the big operators are cheaper and better?

 

[Goldfish62]

So they can fund vanity projects like this when they are supposedly hemorrhaging money, but don't have any budget for operators like Sullivan Buses. Also, I highly doubt passengers are going to use the bus between Waterloo and Lewisham when the train is faster.

It was in the Mayor's manifesto.

As for Sullivan's, long-suffering users of their former routes are now getting a much better quality service (not difficult). Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[PGAT]

So they can fund vanity projects like this when they are supposedly hemorrhaging money, but don't have any budget for operators like Sullivan Buses. Also, I highly doubt passengers are going to use the bus between Waterloo and Lewisham when the train is faster.

1) This route is mostly funded by S106 money and Southwark council
2) Sullivan Buses weren't able to make bids that were competitive, why should TfL and by extension the taxpayer be paying extra for a worse operator? Bear in mind they always performed poorly with regards to things like reliability and blind presentation, they also called quits with less than a days notice!
3) Waterloo to Lewisham specifically can be done by train yes (at a price) but along the Old Kent Road and Burgess Park better connectivity is desperately needed

 

[johncrossley]

Should TfL tighten up journey times and reduce recovery time? The prevailing view on the Bee Network thread is that increasing running times and PVR is undesirable as it costs money and increased journey times makes buses less attractive to passengers. They would prefer buses to run late and/or have long waits between buses.

 

[MotCO]

Should TfL tighten up journey times and reduce recovery time? The prevailing view on the Bee Network thread is that increasing running times and PVR is undesirable as it costs money and increased journey times makes buses less attractive to passengers. They would prefer buses to run late and/or have long waits between buses.

Or maybe there shouldn't be so many 20mph zones in London?

 

[johncrossley]

Or maybe there shouldn't be so many 20mph zones in London?

That is besides the point. Let's say we remove the 20 mph zones so we can reduce the PVR and increase speed. There would still be further potential for removing recovery time etc. to further reduce PVR.

For the purpose of this discussion, I'm assuming that all other factors remain the same.

The argument on the Bee Network thread is basically saying we should give up trying to run a bus service unless there is comprehensive bus priority.

 

[route101]

Is there any Mercedes Citaros still in service in London?

 

[Intro298]

Is there any Mercedes Citaros still in service in London?

There are very few still soldering on the 108 (not for long), and the 117 I believe has a full allocation

 

[Busoccultation]

Is there any Mercedes Citaros still in service in London?

Yes the short 10.5 Citaro K batch with RATP on the 117 and the few of the 108 batch with Go Ahead still surviving on the route for now at least.