London Buses Discussion

[TWBG]

A route actually converts to electric on the contract start date! It rarely happens in a post Covid world. (To be fair its only like the 214, 444 and W15 prior to the D3 contract starting which is today)

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

This was close to happening with the retention of the 64

 

[MasterSpenny]

First look at single deck Volvo BZLs for London, VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen in Eastleigh.
Not my pictures, but here is the front:

Eastleigh VMS2822 + VMS2830

Metroline electric MCV/ Volvo BZL, fleet numbers VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen at Barton Park, No registration numbers shown.

www.flickr.com

The back:

Eastleigh VMS2822 + VMS2830

Metroline electric MCV/ Volvo BZL, fleet numbers VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen at Barton Park, No registration numbers shown.

www.flickr.com

Thoughts on these?

 

[Goldfish62]

First look at single deck Volvo BZLs for London, VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen in Eastleigh.
Not my pictures, but here is the front:

Eastleigh VMS2822 + VMS2830

Metroline electric MCV/ Volvo BZL, fleet numbers VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen at Barton Park, No registration numbers shown.

www.flickr.com

The back:

Eastleigh VMS2822 + VMS2830

Metroline electric MCV/ Volvo BZL, fleet numbers VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen at Barton Park, No registration numbers shown.

www.flickr.com

Thoughts on these?

They look like proper heavyweight beasts.

 

[Notchapple]

This was close to happening with the retention of the 64

Not close at all, almost 4 weeks on and none of the Electroliners have entered service...

 

[London Trains]

A route actually converts to electric on the contract start date! It rarely happens in a post Covid world.

Also happened with the 213 (in fact the conversion started about 3 months early), but that was a special case as the electrics for the 151 and 213 were swapped due to issues with the 151's Worcester Park stand.

It should also happen very soon with the 450 as I believe GAL (Go Ahead London) don't have any other buses that could temporarily be used on the route.

 

[dmncf]

Is there any progress on the installation of pantograph charging equipment for route 358 at Orpington and Crystal Palace?

 

[Notchapple]

Also happened with the 213 (in fact the conversion started about 3 months early), but that was a special case as the electrics for the 151 and 213 were swapped due to issues with the 151's Worcester Park stand.

It should also happen very soon with the 450 as I believe GAL (Go Ahead London) don't have any other buses that could temporarily be used on the route.

It will be happening with the 450, theres one at Croydon being used for route learning, with the majority of the rest scattered across London in storage, eg SEe25* batch are at BYD Hounslow and part of SEe24* batch are at River Road.

 

[MotCO]

It will be happening with the 450, theres one at Croydon being used for route learning, with the majority of the rest scattered across London in storage, eg SEe25* batch are at BYD Hounslow and part of SEe24* batch are at River Road.

Are these the former Red Arrows?

 

[Notchapple]

Are these the former Red Arrows?

No, I used the asterisks to show 1-9 so SEe251-259 etc.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Why does the W7 have such a high peak vehicle requirement for how short it is? I mean buses can also take like 15 minutes. Here is a literal example.
I would not be surprised if it got a decrease on the new contract though, although the tender stated TBC for its PVR

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

Current stop/time predictions for ML VW1292 (LK12ARO)​

On route W7 to Finsbury Park Station​

Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
21:03	59282	Finsbury Park Station

On route W7 to Muswell Hill​

Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
21:11	58636	Finsbury Park Station
21:13	49004	Tollington Park
21:14	58736	Hanley Road/Stapleton Hall Road
21:15	50322	Crouch Hill Station
21:15	53750	Shaftesbury Road
21:16	71092	Heathville Road
21:17	52731	Dickenson Road
21:19	76985	Crouch End Broadway
21:20	53785	Wolseley Road
21:21	57505	Hornsey Central Health Centre
21:23	76016	Priory Road
21:24	51451	Grosvenor Gardens
21:25	52465	Muswell Hill Broadway

Todays tenders look interesting, my opinion is mainly routes W7 and W8. Both are being electrified as expected. If Alexander Dennis order logbook for orders drop significantly it could get BDEs for common fleet with 17 and 43. For W8, to keep a native common fleet at PB, they could go with MetroDeckers (despite their unreliability on the 134 and 317)
Link to the message I got of them:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/716761129849978920/1140973156413231225/IMG_9917.png

 

[duncombec]

Why does the W7 have such a high peak vehicle requirement for how short it is? I mean buses can also take like 15 minutes. Here is a literal example.

According to the excellent londonbusroutes.net, the W7 almost doubles in frequency at peak times, whilst the journey time taken also nearly doubles.

Rte Vehicle Type Op. PVR Length Frequencies Timetable Contract
nr. Gar. km mi minutes Mo-Sa Sun eve date specification
---- ----------------------------- --- --- -- -- ------- ------- ------- ------- -------- -- - --------
W7 B9TL 10.4m/Gemini 2 2D HT 17 4 3 12-23 6* 7-8 10 19/08/17 TQ 5+19/08/17
* 3-4 Monday to Friday peak hours.

17 doesn't seem unreasonable for a bus running every 4 minutes taking up to 23 minutes. (Quick calculation: 3-4 minutes is between 20 and 16 departures an hour. With a scheduled return journey time of up to 46 minutes, plus stand time... it's perfectly plausible).

What would perhaps show it better would be the off-peak vehicle requirement - the "OPVR", if you like - to show the difference. 6 minutes gives 10 departures an hour, but with a journey time of as low as 24 minutes, you could use as few as 5 buses an hour (but wouldn't, owing to traffic and TfL's liking for extensive off-peak layovers in some locations).

(In edit view, the table headings line up perfectly, but they contract once posted - see here if you can't make it out! http://www.londonbusroutes.net/details.htm#W3)

 

[90sWereBetter]

The W7 is basically the tube service for Muswell Hill and Crouch End, hence why it's so frequent.

London Vehicle Finder doesn't cope well with the W7, often buses will just disappear from it

 

[Busaholic]

The W7 is basically the tube service for Muswell Hill and Crouch End, hence why it's so frequent.

London Vehicle Finder doesn't cope well with the W7, often buses will just disappear from it

When it was converted from conventional double decker route 233 to flat fare single deck route W7 in the very late 1960s it had regular scheduled peak workings between Finsbury Park and Stroud Green, the afternoon ones a minute or two before the through service to encourage those who were going the shorter distance not to crowd out Muswell Hillians. An express service was also worked at one time under the 233 number with blue 'EXPRESS' blinds.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Video credit to Plasma UKTransport but here is the Stagecoach Electroliner interior:

Confirms Transport for London interior

 

[TWBG]

Video credit to Plasma UKTransport but here is the Stagecoach Electroliner interior:

Confirms Transport for London interior

Why did they order it to TfL interior when they are supposed to order it in the “Blue Beachball” interior (because they are Stagecoach London duh)

 

[Goldfish62]

Why did they order it to TfL interior when they are supposed to order it in the “Blue Beachball” interior (because they are Stagecoach London duh)

Blue beachball has been defunct outside London for a few years and I guess Stagecoach have decided to kill it off in London as well. Simple as that.

 

[Mikey C]

Blue beachball has been defunct outside London for a few years and I guess Stagecoach have decided to kill it off in London as well. Simple as that.

So what's the standard Stagecoach interior now outside London, and why haven't these Electroliners got it?

 

[MasterSpenny]

So what's the standard Stagecoach interior now outside London, and why haven't these Electroliners got it?

Plain grey seats (which I believe are leather, and I don’t think Transport for London allow that). Some existing buses have been seemingly refurbished with it. Example (not my video - credit to LJ07Ray)

 

[Joe Paxton]

Plain grey seats (which I believe are leather, and I don’t think Transport for London allow that). Some existing buses have been seemingly refurbished with it. [...]

I'm not really a fan of leather or faux-leather seating on buses - it can get sticky and unpleasant in hot weather.

 

[Goldfish62]

Plain grey seats (which I believe are leather, and I don’t think Transport for London allow that). Some existing buses have been seemingly refurbished with it. Example (not my video - credit to LJ07Ray)

Yes, I don't know how Stagecoach got away with that. It looks horrible as well.

 

[Mikey C]

Very strange, as no London buses have that sort of seat covering, so it's presumably against the vehicle spec rules?

 

[matt_world2004]

Very strange, as no London buses have that sort of seat covering, so it's presumably against the vehicle spec rules?

The triaxle trial.bus had leather seats iirc.

 

[Goldfish62]

The triaxle trial.bus had leather seats iirc.

The triaxle had moquette seats - a blue version of TfL moquette.

The vehicle spec specifically bans e-leather/leather/vinyl and specifically requires moquette, but there's nothing stopping TfL varying it - their spec, their say. The ie Trams have full stitched e-leather seats, but this may just be because when they ordered they were specified very much as a test-bed for an enhanced vehicle specification. As we know, the delays have resulted in events overtaking this!

 

[MasterSpenny]

Transport for London are proposing to change routes B14, R1 and R3, and withdraw routes R2 and R6.

R1, R2, R3, R6 and B14 – Orpington bus proposals

Update 29 May 2024 Today we have published our decision and response to the key issues raised in relation to bus routes R6 and B14, which were proposed for restructure as part of the Orpington bus proposals consultation. We have decided to proceed with

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

R1, R2, R3, R6 and B14 – Orpington bus proposals​

We’re proposing changes to some Orpington bus services and would like to hear your views. These include changes to bus routes R1, R3, and B14 which would see them replace routes R2 and R6.
On this page you can find out more about the proposals, how they may impact you, and how you can have your say.

Bus routes serving Orpington town centre​

Route proposals in detail​

Equalities Impact Assessment​

Background​

How you can find out more​

Tell us your views​

What happens next​

​

Bus routes serving Orpington town centre​

Our proposals aim to provide some new and improved local bus connections in Orpington.
These could help encourage more use of public transport, while continuing to provide regular bus services to popular destinations in the area.
These include, between:

• The Princess Royal University Hospital (PRUH) and Petts Wood rail station
• Petts Wood and Green Street Green
• Biggin Hill Valley and Orpington rail station
• Biggin Hill Valley and St Mary Cray rail station
• Areas east of Orpington High Street, north towards Bexleyheath and Sidcup

Route proposals in detail​

These proposals are presented in three sections for quick access to the information that interests you. You can view the proposals for each section via the links below:

1. Proposal to reroute the R3 via Towncourt Lane in Petts Wood​

2. Proposal to withdraw the R2 and replace it with changes to the R1 and the R3​

3. Proposal to withdraw the R6 and replace it with changes to the B14​

The following map provides an overview of the proposed route changes. More maps can be viewed in detail via the mapssection to the right of this page.
(Click on the map for a larger image)

Equalities Impact Assessment​

We have undertaken an initial Equality Impact Assessment (EqIA) for these proposals. The EqIA identifies and examines in more detail what positive and negative impacts these proposals may have on individuals with protected characteristics together with our equality objectives and how we propose to mitigate any negative impacts.
The impacts and mitigations described within the full EqIA will be considered as part of the decision-making process to determine whether we will proceed with the proposals. The EqIA will be kept under review and updated to reflect any relevant new information, including information which comes in as part of the consultation process.
The full document is available to read and download from the document library.

Background​

We continuously review and adapt the bus network to reflect changing customer needs. This includes proposing adjustments to bus existing routes, to ensure services can continue to operate efficiently in areas where our customers need them most.
London’s bus network is our most affordable, accessible, and available form of public transport and offers the main sustainable alternative to cars for those journeys that can’t easily be walked or cycled. It is also London’s most flexible mode of public transport. You can read more about how we are increasing the number of bus journeys by making bus travel better, quicker, and greener in our Bus action plan(External link).

How you can find out more​

You can use the question tool on this page during the consultation period. We will respond your questions as soon as we can.
If you need to translate this page into another language, please use the ‘Select language’ button at the bottom of this page.
We have provided more information to help you respond. Visit the maps and document library for:

• Maps, diagrams and route guides
• A Word and PDF version of the consultation survey in case you would prefer to respond in writing
• An Easy Read version of our proposals
• An Easy Read version of our survey

Connecting with London's deaf community on our consultations​

• British Sign Language video and audio versions of the proposal and survey

To further enhance how we engage and consult with London's deaf community we are trialling a British Sign Language (BSL) consultation conversation service for this consultation. This service will allow the TfL consultation lead to have a two-way BSL translated discussion on any aspect of this consultation with a BSL speaker.
To request a BSL consultation conversation please contact us at haveyoursay@tfl.gov.uk and we will be in contact to arrange this at a convenient time. Following this trial, we will evaluate the service to determine if this is something we are able to offer on other consultations in the future.

What happens next​

These proposals are subject to the outcome of our consultation. Once consultation ends on Wednesday 1 November 2023, we will spend time considering all the responses we receive and will prepare a consultation report.
The consultation report will help us reach a decision about how bus routes R1, R2, R3, R6 and B14 may change in Orpington.
The report will be available to everyone that takes part in the consultation and a copy will be published on our website.

• Tell us your views
• Proposals
• Ask us a question

Tell us your views​

We are holding a six-week public consultation to hear what you think about these proposals. We want to know if you agree with them, if there is anything you do not agree with, and to understand the reasons why you feel this way.
You can reply by completing our survey, which should take no more than 10 minutes to complete. The closing date for comments is Wednesday 1 November 2023.
To take part in our online survey you will need to register with your email address. Your details will be kept secure and only used with your permission.
If you prefer, you can also:

• Email: haveyoursay@tfl.gov.uk
• Telephone: 020 3054 6037 to leave your name and contact number and we will call you back. Please quote ‘Orpington bus proposals’ when leaving your message
• Write to: Freepost TfL Have Your Say (no postage stamp required)

Please note responses to the survey may be made publicly available after the consultation has closed, this would typically be in the form of a report on the results of the consultation exercise, but any personal information will be kept confidential. Your personal information will be properly safeguarded and processed in accordance with the requirements of privacy and data protection legislation. For further information, please visit our privacy policy.

 

[MotCO]

Transport for London are proposing to change routes B14, R1 and R3, and withdraw routes R2 and R6.

R1, R2, R3, R6 and B14 – Orpington bus proposals

Update 29 May 2024 Today we have published our decision and response to the key issues raised in relation to bus routes R6 and B14, which were proposed for restructure as part of the Orpington bus proposals consultation. We have decided to proceed with

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

Withdrawing routes R2 and R6 will save 3 and 2 buses respectively (PVR). The swap of the southern end of R2 with R1 will increase PVR, maybe by +2; the swap of R3 for R1 will probably mean a PVR of +1; the B14 additional routing over the former R6 route will probably be +1 PVR. So overall, there may not be a significant saving. The most significant change is probably increasing the frequency of the Biggin Hill route, from 2 bph to 3 bph.

 

[TWBG]

These are the new tenders for our bus routes, the (*) has been replaced by (x) to indicate a route is eligible for a 2-year extension, none of the bus routes that have the (x) are operated by Sullivan Buses because they have been performing well meaning that a loss from Sullivan Buses is inevitable. (See pages 63-64 about the issues with Sullivan Buses)

The link to the tenders: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/uploads/forms/2025-2026-lbsl-tendering-programme.pdf

 

[Snow1964]

These are the new tenders for our bus routes, the (*) has been replaced by (x) to indicate a route is eligible for a 2-year extension, none of the bus routes that have the (x) are operated by Sullivan Buses because they have been performing well meaning that a loss from Sullivan Buses is inevitable. (See pages 63-64 about the issues with Sullivan Buses)

The link to the tenders: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/uploads/forms/2025-2026-lbsl-tendering-programme.pdf

I assume this is the base spec.
Interestingly some are shown as ZE (zero emission)
Presumably some not marked ZE will get electric buses due to lack of suitable buses.

It also appears that some are NRM (new routemaster), but possibly these will be issued for a short period. The vast majority were built 2013-2017 so even the youngest will be nearly 9 years old in 2026. If TfL sticks to its old 14 years old target, mass withdrawals of these will start in 2027 (2 have already gone due to damage)

 

[MasterSpenny]

SEe8 has been upseated

https://x.com/pompey4ever007/status/1705310114167566778?s=20

The first of next up-seat batch of SEe for
@Go_Ahead_London
with USB fitted sockets
@HDTrim

 

[Blindtraveler]

Wouldn't surprise me if an attempt was made to keep the new root masters running for 20 years

Nice to see an increasing number of vehicles getting USB sockets either from New or as part of refurbishments, is this part of TFL refurbishment spec now? n

 

[MotCO]

Wouldn't surprise me if an attempt was made to keep the new root masters running for 20 years

Nice to see an increasing number of vehicles getting USB sockets either from New or as part of refurbishments, is this part of TFL refurbishment spec now? n

Part of the problem is that the new Routemasters are a Boris invention - would Khan want to prolong them for longer than necessary, assuming he remains the Mayor next year, and I am not at all sure that he will.

Conversely, one of them has been converted to battery power - if successful, this could help extend their lives.