London Buses Discussion

[317 forever]

For the first time since October, a few route tenders were announced on Tuesday. With the possible exceptions of routes 142 & 339, they all specify existing buses. Admittedly some are more modern than the current vehicles on the route. Examples are route 186 staying with Metroline but upgraded from Volvo B9TL to Volvo B5LH; and route 248 lost by Stagecoach with Scanias to Arriva with New Routemasters.

 

[Busoccultation]

You've also got the X26. Not sure if the Northern Line 733 replacement is limited stop or not?

733 stops at every stop along the route which means the 733 isn't a limited stop route.

 

[Snow1964]

Did anyone manage to wade through the 94 pages of TfL's Bus Action Plan (released yesterday)?

I skipped through, but one point of note was a trial of express, limited stop, routes to increase bus speeds in the capital. It specifically mentions Old Kent Road.

As far as I remember there used to be/could still be an X68 and a 607 - would they be able to provide the evidence of faster journey times?

TfL sets out bold vision for buses in the capital

TfL sets out bold vision for buses in the capital

tfl.gov.uk

There have been a few over time
X15 from Becton- Trafalgar Square 1989-95 (until DLR extended)
X26 Croydon-Heathrow, a shortened former London country bus route 726 which ran Gravesend-Windsor
X30 from New Addington to Croydon (express part of route 130) from 1987 until it became T3 pending tram link
X43 from Finchley to London Bridge 1992-1998
53X from Plumstead to Oxford Circus 1988-92 and this one used the Old Kent Road
X68 from West Croydon to Russel Square, still runs peak hours
X71 from Hook to Ham, 1988-91
X72 from Thamesmead to Woolwich 1994-1998
X140 from Harrow to Heathrow started Dec 2019 by reducing frequency on 140 (so only did 3 months before covid reduced airport journeys)
607 is an oddity, retains a trolleybus route number along Uxbridge Road, and only serves about every third stop, it parallels the new western section of Elizabeth line so don’t know if it will survive

As can be seen most of the Express routes were fairly short lived, most people travelling that far prefer faster and more reliable rail based alternative.

No idea why 53 had a X suffix rather than prefix, but like most of them just got stuck in traffic, couldn’t even run fast along bus lanes as just got stuck behind other stopping buses

 

[NorthKent1989]

There was also the 177E and the 53X both of which were replaced by the X53 in the late 1980s or early 1990s, the X53 used to run non stop from Thamesmead to Woolwich stopping only at Plumstead then on to the A206 to Woolwich rather than running via Plumstead Common, skip every third stop up to New Cross where it ran non stop to Elephant & Castle then all stops to Oxford Street, that survived until the opening of the Jubilee line in 1999/2000

 

[Snow1964]

For the first time since October, a few route tenders were announced on Tuesday. With the possible exceptions of routes 142 & 339, they all specify existing buses. Admittedly some are more modern than the current vehicles on the route. Examples are route 186 staying with Metroline but upgraded from Volvo B9TL to Volvo B5LH; and route 248 lost by Stagecoach with Scanias to Arriva with New Routemasters.

Most of the announcements were for fixed 7 year contracts, but 2 of them 159 which already uses LT (new routemaster) and 248 which gains LT were 5 years. They expire in late 2027 by which time about the first 100 new routemasters will be 14 years old. Presumably this will free up some to allow the oldest to be withdrawn from late 2027

For completeness some school routes were also announced and they are mix of 5 and 7 year, appears to be based on age of buses allocated.

None of the awards were definitely getting new buses, there are number of routes overdue for announcement whose buses will be over 9 years old, so logically should get new buses, in total will be about 110-130 new buses (although few might come from frequency cuts on routes). TfL now only accept zero emission new buses so these might be awaiting financial sign off as costs would also include garage chargers.

Award delays also mean that no one could get electric buses by contract start date, unless they have done a speculative order in advance. If upto 15% of a contract might be worked by old diesel buses then there is a risk anyone with a speculative electric bus order (or even build options) is going to cry foul if another Operator can’t deliver new buses for a year and is chosen instead. Would rather undermine tender system which is supposed to allow any operator time to source buses before contract to give a level playing field to bidders.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There have been a few over time
X15 from Becton- Trafalgar Square 1989-95 (until DLR extended)
X26 Croydon-Heathrow, a shortened former London country bus route 726 which ran Gravesend-Windsor
X30 from New Addington to Croydon (express part of route 130) from 1987 until it became T3 pending tram link
X43 from Finchley to London Bridge 1992-1998
53X from Plumstead to Oxford Circus 1988-92 and this one used the Old Kent Road
X68 from West Croydon to Russel Square, still runs peak hours
X71 from Hook to Ham, 1988-91
X72 from Thamesmead to Woolwich 1994-1998
X140 from Harrow to Heathrow started Dec 2019 by reducing frequency on 140 (so only did 3 months before covid reduced airport journeys)
607 is an oddity, retains a trolleybus route number along Uxbridge Road, and only serves about every third stop, it parallels the new western section of Elizabeth line so don’t know if it will survive

As can be seen most of the Express routes were fairly short lived, most people travelling that far prefer faster and more reliable rail based alternative.

No idea why 53 had a X suffix rather than prefix, but like most of them just got stuck in traffic, couldn’t even run fast along bus lanes as just got stuck behind other stopping buses

I don't know whether this also applies to others, but the X68 isn't "limited stop" in the sense of running along the 68 route but skipping some stops along the way. It only serves the stops at the extremities of the route (indeed only about half a dozen stops at the northern end) - pick-up or set-down only according to which end and which peak. For miles in between it doesn't even run the same route as the regular 68.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I don't know whether this also applies to others, but the X68 isn't "limited stop" in the sense of running along the 68 route but skipping some stops along the way. It only serves the stops at the extremities of the route (indeed only about half a dozen stops at the northern end) - pick-up or set-down only according to which end and which peak. For miles in between it doesn't even run the same route as the regular 68.

The X26 doesn't follow the route of the 26, but its still a limited stop route

 

[Deerfold]

I don't know whether this also applies to others, but the X68 isn't "limited stop" in the sense of running along the 68 route but skipping some stops along the way. It only serves the stops at the extremities of the route (indeed only about half a dozen stops at the northern end) - pick-up or set-down only according to which end and which peak. For miles in between it doesn't even run the same route as the regular 68.

It's clearly a limited stop route. It has about 3 different routes it can take over the non-stop section, presumably based on traffic conditions on the day.

TfL has been trumpeting the success of the X140 recently.

Interestingly when I was at London buses there was research into limited stop buses which suggested they saved fewer passenger minutes than simply increasing frequencies on existing routes (this was London-specific, based on achievable speeds in London).

 

[Busaholic]

There was also the 177E and the 53X both of which were replaced by the X53 in the late 1980s or early 1990s, the X53 used to run non stop from Thamesmead to Woolwich stopping only at Plumstead then on to the A206 to Woolwich rather than running via Plumstead Common, skip every third stop up to New Cross where it ran non stop to Elephant & Castle then all stops to Oxford Street, that survived until the opening of the Jubilee line in 1999/2000

The 177 Express (I don't remember the letter E ever featuring on blinds) ran non stop from Elephant to Woolwich, so used Old Kent Road, but p.m. journeys at least often went via the 53 route to Woolwich, from my observations (I lived in Blackheath.)

 

[busesrusuk]

The 177 Express (I don't remember the letter E ever featuring on blinds) ran non stop from Elephant to Woolwich, so used Old Kent Road, but p.m. journeys at least often went via the 53 route to Woolwich, from my observations (I lived in Blackheath.)

The ex west Midlands PTE Titans which Selkent had, had four track number blinds and were used on the 177E and the "E" was displayed on these vehicles...

 

[Busaholic]

The ex west Midlands PTE Titans which Selkent had, had four track number blinds and were used on the 177E and the "E" was displayed on these vehicles...

Yes, I saw them a couple of times, but couldn't remember whether it was an ''E'' or an ''X'' that was displayed. I wonder whether they were specifically bought to service this route?

 

[busesrusuk]

Here is a bit of info on those 5 buses (T1126-30):

Countrybus.org

www.countrybus.org

and here is a pic I took of one at Peckham Garage whilst working a weekend excursion:

LT T1129

Peckham Bus Stn

www.flickr.com

 

[MotCO]

Yes, I saw them a couple of times, but couldn't remember whether it was an ''E'' or an ''X'' that was displayed. I wonder whether they were specifically bought to service this route?

I wonder if it was more of a case of finding a route to suit the buses?

 

[Mikey C]

Most of the announcements were for fixed 7 year contracts, but 2 of them 159 which already uses LT (new routemaster) and 248 which gains LT were 5 years. They expire in late 2027 by which time about the first 100 new routemasters will be 14 years old. Presumably this will free up some to allow the oldest to be withdrawn from late 2027

For completeness some school routes were also announced and they are mix of 5 and 7 year, appears to be based on age of buses allocated.

None of the awards were definitely getting new buses, there are number of routes overdue for announcement whose buses will be over 9 years old, so logically should get new buses, in total will be about 110-130 new buses (although few might come from frequency cuts on routes). TfL now only accept zero emission new buses so these might be awaiting financial sign off as costs would also include garage chargers.

Award delays also mean that no one could get electric buses by contract start date, unless they have done a speculative order in advance. If upto 15% of a contract might be worked by old diesel buses then there is a risk anyone with a speculative electric bus order (or even build options) is going to cry foul if another Operator can’t deliver new buses for a year and is chosen instead. Would rather undermine tender system which is supposed to allow any operator time to source buses before contract to give a level playing field to bidders.

With the lack of new buses other than zero emission ones, the fleet is definitely getting older

In my area, Metroline have a LOT of aging E200s, all over 12 years old. Another thing I've noticed is that double decker routes are getting a real mixture of buses, mixing up hybrids and non hybrids, ADL and Volvo, using up buses left over buses from service cuts I guess.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think the TfL decision to only specifies zero-emission buses from now is extremely short-sighted. Given that there are products on the market now which are classified as ultra low emission and the technology is both reliable and much cheaper than maybe we should be having another few years of those, perhaps up to 5 maximum to get the general fleet age profile down a bit more before we go totally zero-emission? Credit apart from anything else, you wonder how the infrastructure is going to cope with the number of buses being charged etc if this goes this way

 

[MotCO]

With the lack of new buses other than zero emission ones, the fleet is definitely getting older

In my area, Metroline have a LOT of aging E200s, all over 12 years old. Another thing I've noticed is that double decker routes are getting a real mixture of buses, mixing up hybrids and non hybrids, ADL and Volvo, using up buses left over buses from service cuts I guess.

I've questioned previously where second hand buses will come from to replace ageing buses on the Roundbout routes in Orpington, in the absence of small electric vehicles (although Mellor may be able to fill the void). Many hail from 2012 and 2013, and they will be knackered by the end of a 7 year contract which should soon be awarded.

 

[Snow1964]

With the lack of new buses other than zero emission ones, the fleet is definitely getting older

In my area, Metroline have a LOT of aging E200s, all over 12 years old. Another thing I've noticed is that double decker routes are getting a real mixture of buses, mixing up hybrids and non hybrids, ADL and Volvo, using up buses left over buses from service cuts I guess.

The last TfL fleet audit is now 11.5 months old (it is only published annually now, used to be quarterly).

The age by operator is the third section of table 6, and Metroline has an older than average fleet (as does Arriva). Neither have introduced many buses over last 24 months and don’t have much (if any) on order so their ages profiles are increasing. By this summer going to be nearer average 8 years.

With a fleet of 1532 buses on report (probably nearer 1450 currently) Metroline are going to need about 200 new buses to get their fleet back to the average London age of 6.69 years

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2021.pdf

 

[busesrusuk]

The last TfL fleet audit is now 11.5 months old (it is only published annually now, used to be quarterly).

The age by operator is the third section of table 6, and Metroline has an older than average fleet (as does Arriva). Neither have introduced many buses over last 24 months and don’t have much (if any) on order so their ages profiles are increasing. By this summer going to be nearer average 8 years.

With a fleet of 1532 buses on report (probably nearer 1450 currently) Metroline are going to need about 200 new buses to get their fleet back to the average London age of 6.69 years

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2021.pdf

And that fleet replacement will only happen if/when Metroline win or retain tenders that specify new buses. It is highly unlikely that there would be any age related fleet replacement at any TfL operator unless the tender awards dictate oit.

It is possible that tenders could be won on secondhand buses if such suitable buses were available (as has been mentioned previously). Such buses could have been, or about to be, returned to lessors following a tender loss. IIRC the first example was Abellio taking some ALX400's that started life with Armchair and ended up working on the 172. Another example was the recent purchase by GAL of E200MMC's from Abellio when the C10 was converted to electric.

 

[Mikey C]

And that fleet replacement will only happen if/when Metroline win or retain tenders that specify new buses. It is highly unlikely that there would be any age related fleet replacement at any TfL operator unless the tender awards dictate oit.

It is possible that tenders could be won on secondhand buses if such suitable buses were available (as has been mentioned previously). Such buses could have been, or about to be, returned to lessors following a tender loss. IIRC the first example was Abellio taking some ALX400's that started life with Armchair and ended up working on the 172. Another example was the recent purchase by GAL of E200MMC's from Abellio when the C10 was converted to electric.

I'd be surprised if there were many suitable London spec secondhand buses available now, as any operator with spare "newer" buses like E200MMCs or B5LHs would almost certainly need to use them themselves to replace older vehicles

The last TfL fleet audit is now 11.5 months old (it is only published annually now, used to be quarterly).

The age by operator is the third section of table 6, and Metroline has an older than average fleet (as does Arriva). Neither have introduced many buses over last 24 months and don’t have much (if any) on order so their ages profiles are increasing. By this summer going to be nearer average 8 years.

With a fleet of 1532 buses on report (probably nearer 1450 currently) Metroline are going to need about 200 new buses to get their fleet back to the average London age of 6.69 years

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2021.pdf

That's a really interesting report thanks

What strikes me is that Metroline has 125 "upgraded to Euro VI" Euro IV single deckers, almost half of London's total, which backs up my concerns about their elderly E200s

Indeed without any significant Metroline single deck routes being converted to electric soon, they'll be struggling to find suitable existing vehicles for new contracts

 

[Busoccultation]

I've questioned previously where second hand buses will come from to replace ageing buses on the Roundbout routes in Orpington, in the absence of small electric vehicles (although Mellor may be able to fill the void). Many hail from 2012 and 2013, and they will be knackered by the end of a 7 year contract which should soon be awarded.

Optare does offer the 8.7m version of the Metrocity EV with Abellio have 11 of them on order for the 322 when they gain the route from Go-Ahead next month. I believe ADL are currently working on making a 9m version of the E200EV which should hopefully be available not too far in the future.

 

[Edsmith]

I don't know whether this also applies to others, but the X68 isn't "limited stop" in the sense of running along the 68 route but skipping some stops along the way. It only serves the stops at the extremities of the route (indeed only about half a dozen stops at the northern end) - pick-up or set-down only according to which end and which peak. For miles in between it doesn't even run the same route as the regular 68.

The 68 is non stop between Waterloo and West Norwood so is probably an express rather than limited stop although that's not really important. It can take the normal 68 route although the route via Brixton is slightly quicker, as it's non stop on that section it doesn't really matter.

 

[Deerfold]

The 68 is non stop between Waterloo and West Norwood so is probably an express rather than limited stop although that's not really important. It can take the normal 68 route although the route via Brixton is slightly quicker, as it's non stop on that section it doesn't really matter.

As of 2016 when I last had access to the data, the X68 had 3 permitted routes. If it doesn't take any of them, iBus is liable to lose track of it and it will stop announcing stops.

 

[duncombec]

As of 2016 when I last had access to the data, the X68 had 3 permitted routes. If it doesn't take any of them, iBus is liable to lose track of it and it will stop announcing stops.

Quite a lot of current routes have their route records accessible by the "public" on Ian Armstrong's londonbuses.co.uk site. According to https://www.londonbuses.co.uk/route-records/X68.pdf, it looks like there are only two routes now (the main route and the drivers discretion route).

STREETS TRAVERSED Towards Russell Square: West Croydon Bus Station, Station Road, Wellesley Road, St James's Road, Hogarth Crescent, Whitehorse Road, Whitehorse Lane, South Norwood Hill, Beulah Hill, Knights Hill, Norwood Road, Half Moon Lane, Herne Hill, Denmark Hill, Camberwell Green (West Side), Camberwell Road, Walworth Road, Elephant And Castle, London Road, St George's Circus, Contra-Flow Bus Lane, Waterloo Road, Tenison Way Bus Station, Tenison Way, Waterloo Road, Waterloo Bridge, Lancaster Place, Aldwych, Kingsway, Southampton Row, Russell Square.

Special Journey towards Russell Square between Norwood Road and Waterloo Road: at Drivers' Discretion operate from Norwood Road, then via Tulse Hill, Effra Road, St Matthew's Road, Brixton Hill, Brixton Road, Kennington Park Road, Kennington Road, Baylis Road rejoining line of route at Waterloo Road.

Towards West Croydon Bus Station: Southampton Row, Kingsway, Aldwych, Strand, Lancaster Place, Waterloo Bridge, Waterloo Road, St George's Circus, London Road, Elephant And Castle, Walworth Road, Camberwell Road, Camberwell Green (West Side), Denmark Hill, Herne Hill, Half Moon Lane, Norwood Road, Norwood High Street, Rothschild Street, Knights Hill, Beulah Hill, South Norwood Hill, Whitehorse Lane, Whitehorse Road, St James's Road, Newgate, Wellesley Road, Station Road.

Special Journey towards West Croydon Bus Station between Waterloo Road and Norwood Road: at Drivers' Discretion operate from Waterloo Road, then via Baylis Road, Kennington Road, Kennington Park Road, Brixton Road, Camberwell New Road, Brixton Road, Effra Road, Tulse Hill rejoining line of route at Norwood Road.

 

[Class465pacer]

The TfL consultation on the future of route 497 has ended. The route will be extended to Dagnam Park Square but the Sunday service will be withdrawn.

Proposed changes to bus route 497

Consultation update 14 March 2022 We are now able to publish our report on the outcomes of our public consultation on our proposals to either extend route 497 to serve bus stops between Gooshays Drive and a new terminus at Dagnam Park Square or withdraw the

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

Consultation has concluded

Consultation update 14 March 2022

We are now able to publish our report on the outcomes of our public consultation on our proposals to either extend route 497 to serve bus stops between Gooshays Drive and a new terminus at Dagnam Park Square or withdraw the service entirely.

The consultation ran between 6 September and 17 October 2021, and we received 437 responses. You can find the consultation report in the ‘Documents’ section of this web page.

Having considered all responses carefully, we have made some amendments to the proposals. We intend to extend route 497 to Dagnam Park butContinue reading

 

[Statto]

Quite a lot of current routes have their route records accessible by the "public" on Ian Armstrong's londonbuses.co.uk site. According to https://www.londonbuses.co.uk/route-records/X68.pdf, it looks like there are only two routes now (the main route and the drivers discretion route).

The last few occasions i've been on the X68, the drivers discretion route via Brixton, that way did feel a bit quicker than going via Elephant & Castle, & Walworth Road

i've often thought whether drivers working the X68 change the blinds to, not in service, when past the last picking up stop, or used to before the ibus system.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The last few occasions i've been on the X68, the drivers discretion route via Brixton, that way did feel a bit quicker than going via Elephant & Castle, & Walworth Road

i've often thought whether drivers working the X68 change the blinds to, not in service, when past the last picking up stop, or used to before the ibus system.

Southbound, I've only ever seen them going down the Kennington Road and Brixton route in recent times. But maybe I happen to be more often near that route than near Elephant at that time of day.

 

[Roger1973]

I wonder whether they were specifically bought to service this route?

I wonder if it was more of a case of finding a route to suit the buses?

I think it's more the latter, the 177 Express had at least a couple of special liveried but internally standard Titans (TE 113 photograph on this page)

I understand there was a suggestion (not sure if it was much more than the rumour mill) that the WM Titans would go to Catford for their small allocation on route 180, but that was (in effect) converted to one-person operation as the 181 in late 1984.

 

[Busaholic]

I think it's more the latter, the 177 Express had at least a couple of special liveried but internally standard Titans (TE 113 photograph on this page)

I understand there was a suggestion (not sure if it was much more than the rumour mill) that the WM Titans would go to Catford for their small allocation on route 180, but that was (in effect) converted to one-person operation as the 181 in late 1984.

I agree it's probably more the latter! Living in the area then, I understood Catford conductors were very unhappy about the reversing movement at Lower Sydenham when their allocation went briefly from Routemaster to Titan and, in any case, it was a nonsense that the station at Lower Sydenham couldn't be connected to the wider area of that name for want of a single decker route. The 181 should have happened years earlier.

 

[Snow1964]

When the London Mayor visited Wrightbus as Ballymena last week, it was stated in press release that there are already 750 electric buses in London. 30 Electroliners buses (already ordered by Abellio) will be delivered by October for route 111 Kingston-Heathrow by October.

The high specification buses, ordered by Abellio London, are the first electric double deckers to be manufactured for London in Northern Ireland and will be rolled out in October on the route 111, linking Kingston to Heathrow - adding another 30 double decker electric buses to the capital’s roads.

Mayor visits Northern Ireland bus factory, highlights TfL funding risk

Mayor highlights risk to jobs across the country if TfL isn’t properly funded with visit to Northern Ireland bus factory

www.london.gov.uk

By October should be about 880 electric (and hydrogen) buses, as routes 295 and 226 are due to transfer to RATP in October and gain electric buses too. This will take RATP electric fleet to 304

GoAhead will have about 300 electric buses (routes 132, 119, 264 get BYD ADL E400EVs and route 358 is getting Irizar e-tram)

Abellio will have most variety with its 132 buses, having opted for Caetano e-city, BYD ADL E400EV, Wrightbus electroliners, and some short 8.7m Switch (Optare) metrocities for route 322

The other about 150 electric buses are with the remaining Operators (Arriva, Metroline, Stagecoach), none of which will have reached 100 zero emission buses in their London fleets.

A couple of prototypes are due, Metroline is getting a Volvo BZL with MCV body, and GoAhead is getting a short 10.3m BYD ADL E400EV which apparently has only 20 seats downstairs (less than shortest single decks in London)

Until TfL sort out their funding, it appears all bus tenders involving new buses are on hold. Based on routes out to tender with buses which will be 10 years old, there is around 140 new buses needed (although few might get buses from cuts to other routes).

 

[Statto]

Mike Harris has released the latest versions of The Greater London Bus Map, & separate Night Bus Map, printed version is pre order, i've ordered the download version which i much prefer.