London Buses Discussion

[galwhv69]

No BYD logo on the front - do these not have BYD involvement, or have Stagecoach just not wanted the logo there?

They're on a BYD chassis so would be pretty hard to have a bus with no chassis :P . Believe it's just a decision, just like with the TfL logo on Arriva's E400 H City's

 

[py_megapixel]

They're on a BYD chassis so would be pretty hard to have a bus with no chassis . Believe it's just a decision, just like with the TfL logo on Arriva's E400 H City's

Yes, that's what I suspected.

I wondered if ADL might have partnered with someone else to produce them though for some reason and the new manufacturer didn't want their branding on the front
The BYD partnership does seem to have worked out quite well for them though doesn't it!

 

[TitanMike]

No BYD logo on the front - do these not have BYD involvement, or have Stagecoach just not wanted the logo there?

I believe that Stagecoach buses (In London anyway) rarely display a manufacturer badge.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, that's what I suspected.

I wondered if ADL might have partnered with someone else to produce them though for some reason and the new manufacturer didn't want their branding on the front
The BYD partnership does seem to have worked out quite well for them though doesn't it!

ADL are still happily working with BYD, though chassis production will be taken inhouse and produced in Scotland

 

[Surreyman]

https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https://www.route-one.net/environment/4000-zero-emission-buses-plan-to-start-delivery-in-2021/&title=4,000+zero-emission+buses+plan+to+start+delivery+in+2021

"The government will invest £120m in 2021 to begin the introduction of its promised 4,000 zero-emission buses. It will also publish the long-anticipated National Bus Strategy earlynext year.
Both developments were confirmed in the 10 Point Plan for anIndustrial Revolution. That document was published on 18 November. Each of the above schemes will be funded through the £5bn that was committed to buses and cycling earlier in 2020. Despite some concern that the sum available to buseswould be cut as a result of the coronavirus COVID-19 pandemic, the Plan confirms that a commitment to provide funding towards at least 4,000 zero-emission examplesremains intact".

A reminder of the Government commitment to invest in 4000 zero emission buses over the next 4 years.
I note that the phrase "begin the introduction of" may mean that the funding is only currently committed to the first £120M.
It may not(?) apply to Scotland who have their own Zero Emission funding programme.

Assuming the Government follows through then if London only receives 10% of the funding then that equals 400 buses, so aprox 100 a year, I would hazard a guess that the London (Red Bus fleet) comprises maybe @15% of the total UK bus fleet?
I am open to correction on this by anyone who has more precise info?
https://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https://www.route-one.net/environment/4000-zero-emission-buses-plan-to-start-delivery-in-2021/
https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=4,000+zero-emission+buses+plan+to+start+delivery+in+2021&url=https://www.route-one.net/environment/4000-zero-emission-buses-plan-to-start-delivery-in-2021/&via=@routeoneteam

https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https://www.route-one.net/environment/4000-zero-emission-buses-plan-to-start-delivery-in-2021/&title=4,000+zero-emission+buses+plan+to+start+delivery+in+2021

 

[matt_world2004]

https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https://www.route-one.net/environment/4000-zero-emission-buses-plan-to-start-delivery-in-2021/&title=4,000+zero-emission+buses+plan+to+start+delivery+in+2021
"The government will invest £120m in 2021 to begin the introduction of its promised 4,000 zero-emission buses. It will also publish the long-anticipated National Bus Strategy earlynext year.
Both developments were confirmed in the 10 Point Plan for anIndustrial Revolution. That document was published on 18 November. Each of the above schemes will be funded through the £5bn that was committed to buses and cycling earlier in 2020. Despite some concern that the sum available to buseswould be cut as a result of the coronavirus COVID-19 pandemic, the Plan confirms that a commitment to provide funding towards at least 4,000 zero-emission examplesremains intact".


A reminder of the Government commitment to invest in 4000 zero emission buses over the next 4 years.
I note that the phrase "begin the introduction of" may mean that the funding is only currently committed to the first £120M.
It may not(?) apply to Scotland who have their own Zero Emission funding programme.

Assuming the Government follows through then if London only receives 10% of the funding then that equals 400 buses, so aprox 100 a year, I would hazard a guess that the London (Red Bus fleet) comprises maybe @15% of the total UK bus fleet?
I am open to correction on this by anyone who has more precise info?
https://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https://www.route-one.net/environment/4000-zero-emission-buses-plan-to-start-delivery-in-2021/
https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=4,000+zero-emission+buses+plan+to+start+delivery+in+2021&url=https://www.route-one.net/environment/4000-zero-emission-buses-plan-to-start-delivery-in-2021/&via=@routeoneteam

https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https://www.route-one.net/environment/4000-zero-emission-buses-plan-to-start-delivery-in-2021/&title=4,000+zero-emission+buses+plan+to+start+delivery+in+2021

The London bus fleet comprises of about 50% of the UK bus fleet. There are a lot more buses per head of population in London than anywhere elsem

 

[duncombec]

The London bus fleet comprises of about 50% of the UK bus fleet. There are a lot more buses per head of population in London than anywhere elsem

The DfT statistics for bus use 2019/20, published in October 2020, state at the bottom of page 2 that 29% of buses are in London (our of a total of 32,300, which would equate to ca. 9370): https://assets.publishing.service.g...ual-bus-statistics-year-ending-march-2020.pdf.

There are various other sources available that suggest a similar number - TfL (https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/number-buses-type-bus-london) state 9,102 as at March 2020, a decrease of a few dozen over 2019, but about 200 over March 2018. Stagecoach (https://m.stagecoachgroup.com/~/med...roup/Attachments/pdf/bus-industry-faqs-v2.pdf) state a total of 32,000, of which they operate ca. 8.500.

However, the DfT do say that approx. 51% of journeys take place in London.

 

[busesrusuk]

No BYD logo on the front - do these not have BYD involvement, or have Stagecoach just not wanted the logo there?

These buses are BYD chassis. Not everyone wants badges on their vehicles...

 

[Surreyman]

duncombec - thanks for the info update, so London has 29% of total Uk bus fleet = @9370.

I had a look at the Dft site, for clarity I quote the following: -

"The figures in this release relate to local bus services. These are timetabled services using public service vehicles to carry passengers over relatively short distances, and are usually eligible for Bus Services Operators Grant. Long distance coach services, private hire work and closed contracts are excluded but school services accessible to the general public are included".

So the figures for total Uk buses specifically exclude Coaches including natexpress & Megabus and presumably operations like Scottish Citylink and buses used on 'Closed Contracts'.

 

[Robertj21a]

The London bus fleet comprises of about 50% of the UK bus fleet. There are a lot more buses per head of population in London than anywhere elsem

Way overstated!!

 

[duncombec]

duncombec - thanks for the info update, so London has 29% of total Uk bus fleet = @9370.

I had a look at the Dft site, for clarity I quote the following: -

"The figures in this release relate to local bus services. These are timetabled services using public service vehicles to carry passengers over relatively short distances, and are usually eligible for Bus Services Operators Grant. Long distance coach services, private hire work and closed contracts are excluded but school services accessible to the general public are included".

So the figures for total Uk buses specifically exclude Coaches including natexpress & Megabus and presumably operations like Scottish Citylink and buses used on 'Closed Contracts'.

I did find another US website that suggested over 39,000 "buses" in the UK - this could include coaches and other buses not caught by the DfT... I wasn't paying $39 to find out their data sources!

I presume DfT's figures wouldn't include things like operators who have exclusively closed-door, pass only school contracts, although I would estimate the reality of the situation is it would be quite difficult to tell the actual number of vehicles, in the case of an operator who may have PSVs used on public bus services and half a dozen that only go out of contracts. That will skew the figures in areas that use closed-door contracts more than others, so I'd suggest that lowers the % figure for London slightly.

As an example, how would they count a fleet like Heyfordian (Ox/Bucks, but an example I always recall), which certainly a few years ago had coaches, "regular" bus services, and at least closed-door, if not close and open school contracts in a pretty sizeable fleet. Or Greenline & Commuter services, which are registered bus services but operated with coaches? (Largely hypothetical questions, to avoid going off topic!)

 

[Surreyman]

I did find another US website that suggested over 39,000 "buses" in the UK - this could include coaches and other buses not caught by the DfT... I wasn't paying $39 to find out their data sources!

I presume DfT's figures wouldn't include things like operators who have exclusively closed-door, pass only school contracts, although I would estimate the reality of the situation is it would be quite difficult to tell the actual number of vehicles, in the case of an operator who may have PSVs used on public bus services and half a dozen that only go out of contracts. That will skew the figures in areas that use closed-door contracts more than others, so I'd suggest that lowers the % figure for London slightly.

As an example, how would they count a fleet like Heyfordian (Ox/Bucks, but an example I always recall), which certainly a few years ago had coaches, "regular" bus services, and at least closed-door, if not close and open school contracts in a pretty sizeable fleet. Or Greenline & Commuter services, which are registered bus services but operated with coaches? (Largely hypothetical questions, to avoid going off topic!)

The website 'London Bus Routes' gives a current peak vehicle requirement for Tfl run routes of 7810 (add in whatever you think the % of spare vehicles should be, it will be higher than 'normal' due to the number of Night/24 hour routes).

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm sure the number of buses allocated to TfL routes is something like 8,700-ish. That might be a bit out, but it's been that sort of number for a while.

 

[cnjb8]

No BYD logo on the front - do these not have BYD involvement, or have Stagecoach just not wanted the logo there?

They're on a BYD chassis so would be pretty hard to have a bus with no chassis :P . Believe it's just a decision, just like with the TfL logo on Arriva's E400 H City's

Yes, that's what I suspected.

I wondered if ADL might have partnered with someone else to produce them though for some reason and the new manufacturer didn't want their branding on the front
The BYD partnership does seem to have worked out quite well for them though doesn't it!

ADL will now make their own electric chassis with BYD components as stated, but these particular vehicles have a BYD chassis.

ADL are still happily working with BYD, though chassis production will be taken inhouse and produced in Scotland

 

[Snow1964]

Couple of London updates :
Some of the buses loaned to Stagecoach 804xx have now been stood down, and presumably will be returned to RATP soon

TfL have still not advised the public (or schoolchildren) if the school bus extras will return Monday (when schools restart). It is rumoured that TfL are going to resume them (known internally as V prefix). However the introduction of LEZ means some of the buses used before schools closed are no longer compliant, so would be subject to a daily charge

 

[FlambeGarlic14]

Couple of London updates :
Some of the buses loaned to Stagecoach 804xx have now been stood down, and presumably will be returned to RATP soon

TfL have still not advised the public (or schoolchildren) if the school bus extras will return Monday (when schools restart). It is rumoured that TfL are going to resume them (known internally as V prefix). However the introduction of LEZ means some of the buses used before schools closed are no longer compliant, so would be subject to a daily charge

We (at a London bus operator) have been informed the red and yellow boards and ‘V’ routes as well as all the dedicated 6xx series routes are returning from Mon 8th.

 

[Snow1964]

We (at a London bus operator) have been informed the red and yellow boards and ‘V’ routes as well as all the dedicated 6xx series routes are returning from Mon 8th.

TfL have now published list on their website, but it wasn’t there at lunchtime when I posted. 4.5 days to find extra drivers (that are not already working or on a rota) isn’t lot of time

Bus changes

Permanent changes to TfL bus routes including new routes and changes to first and last stops.

tfl.gov.uk

Some routes like 108 , 162, 170, 191, 226, 251, 256, 393, 484, 493, B12, H22, and K3 etc gains extra buses AND school priority buses.

Wonder how many non LEZ compliant buses will be used (which presumably means daily charge needs to be paid).

 

[busesrusuk]

TfL have now published list on their website, but it wasn’t there at lunchtime when I posted. 4.5 days to find extra drivers (that are not already working or on a rota) isn’t lot of time

Bus changes

Permanent changes to TfL bus routes including new routes and changes to first and last stops.

tfl.gov.uk

Some routes like 108 , 162, 170, 191, 226, 251, 256, 393, 484, 493, B12, H22, and K3 etc gains extra buses AND school priority buses.

Wonder how many non LEZ compliant buses will be used (which presumably means daily charge needs to be paid).

TfL can exempt the vehicles if it is necessary to do so. It is, after all their ULEZ scheme...

 

[Snow1964]

TfL can exempt the vehicles if it is necessary to do so. It is, after all their ULEZ scheme...

How ?

The scheme went through a public consultation, had some enabling legislation, so can’t just change the rules to suit themselves.

Of course paying a £100 (£300 if not euroIV ) daily charge can be factored in to price charged to operate a bus. Probably a max of 3-4 weeks this side of Easter, which is lot less than a£10k emissions upgrade. No guarantee will continue after Easter break if distancing rules get eased

 

[matt_world2004]

How ?

The scheme went through a public consultation, had some enabling legislation, so can’t just change the rules to suit themselves.

Of course paying a £100 (£300 if not euroIV ) daily charge can be factored in to price charged to operate a bus. Probably a max of 3-4 weeks this side of Easter, which is lot less than a£10k emissions upgrade. No guarantee will continue after Easter break if distancing rules get eased

£100 to run a bus for one return trip a day is a significant cost particularly when no one kn that bus is paying.

 

[Robertj21a]

£100 to run a bus for one return trip a day is a significant cost particularly when no one kn that bus is paying.

Smoke and mirrors. If any charges have to be made TfL can find a way to just adjust it internally.

 

[Surreyman]

With all this talk of running non-euro 6 buses on school routes, perhaps we should ask the questions:-
1. Are there any non euro 6 buses left in the red bus fleet?
2. If there are, how long would they have to run in service?
There can only be a handful left, which would be quickly replaced by cascade when new buses arrive or contracts are lost. (Tower Transit for example will see a reduction in PVR of @54 'deckers from the loss of routes 28/n28/69 & 328n in early May).
Tfl have already confirmed that all the 'current' bus fleet is Euro 6 compliant.
We have also recently seen companies lending buses short term to other operators to cover for late arrival of new vehicles.

 

[700007]

With all this talk of running non-euro 6 buses on school routes, perhaps we should ask the questions:-
1. Are there any non euro 6 buses left in the red bus fleet?
2. If there are, how long would they have to run in service?
There can only be a handful left, which would be quickly replaced by cascade when new buses arrive or contracts are lost. (Tower Transit for example will see a reduction in PVR of @54 'deckers from the loss of routes 28/n28/69 & 328n in early May).
Tfl have already confirmed that all the 'current' bus fleet is Euro 6 compliant.
We have also recently seen companies lending buses short term to other operators to cover for late arrival of new vehicles.

As you say yourself, all TfL service buses are now Euro 6 as of last month. I believe the last two buses to be done were a pair of Abellio Enviro 400s at Battersea.

 

[90sWereBetter]

I believe route 318 now has the oldest average fleet of any London bus route. It's dominated by 57-reg Enviro 200s. I'm not quite certain how Arriva or any operator who wins the route (it must be up for tender soon) plan to replace the fleet, given you won't get anything but the smallest E200 or Streetlite around some of the roads in Tottenham. Certainly wouldn't be able to get a BYD around it.

On a similar tangent, the nearby 192 must be the most nightmarish route in London to operate. Before COVID almost every daytime service was crush-loaded within two or three stops, but as with the 318, the roads it uses between Enfield and Tottenham are a squeeze even for the smallest E200, and the frequency of the route is ludicrously high already.

 

[jacksmithyton]

I believe route 318 now has the oldest average fleet of any London bus route. It's dominated by 57-reg Enviro 200s. I'm not quite certain how Arriva or any operator who wins the route (it must be up for tender soon) plan to replace the fleet, given you won't get anything but the smallest E200 or Streetlite around some of the roads in Tottenham. Certainly wouldn't be able to get a BYD around it.

On a similar tangent, the nearby 192 must be the most nightmarish route in London to operate. Before COVID almost every daytime service was crush-loaded within two or three stops, but as with the 318, the roads it uses between Enfield and Tottenham are a squeeze even for the smallest E200, and the frequency of the route is ludicrously high already.

The reason the 192 gets so busy is because it's the only service to run between Tottenham and the IKEA store, maybe extend the 76 or 41 there and cut the 192 to between Enfield and Edmonton?

 

[700007]

The reason the 192 gets so busy is because it's the only service to run between Tottenham and the IKEA store, maybe extend the 76 or 41 there and cut the 192 to between Enfield and Edmonton?

The mooted suggestion which has repeatedly fallen on deaf ears at TfL towers for the last few years has been to swap the W8 and 192 south/west Monmouth Road, so that the 192 goes to Lea Valley Leisure Complex and the double decker W8 goes to Tottenham Hale via the existing 192 route. The W8 is lightly used past Edmonton Green but the swap would ensure that broadly speaking the same links are retained (from Tottenham/IKEA/Lea Valley Leisure Complex) to Edmonton, Bush Hill Park and Enfield.

 

[Snow1964]

As expected, the V prefix school extras restarted today
(V is internal code, not displayed on bus destination blind)

Oldest bus returning (and on LVF) is RATPs VLE40516, a 2004 bus

Some of the buses used are not LEZ compliant (euroVI minimum has applied Londonwide since 1st March), but presumably operator just pays daily charge, adds it to cost they bill to TfL for operating the extra.

HCT seem to have borrowed some buses from Arriva
RATP has borrowed 3 short buses for Kingston routes from Abellio
Abellio has borrowed 3 longer single decks from RATP in exchange

 

[chopperman21]

As expected, the V prefix school extras restarted today
(V is internal code, not displayed on bus destination blind)

Oldest bus returning (and on LVF) is RATPs VLE40516, a 2004 bus

Some of the buses used are not LEZ compliant (euroVI minimum has applied Londonwide since 1st March), but presumably operator just pays daily charge, adds it to cost they bill to TfL for operating the extra.

HCT seem to have borrowed some buses from Arriva
RATP has borrowed 3 short buses for Kingston routes from Abellio
Abellio has borrowed 3 longer single decks from RATP in exchange

And Ensignbus have pressed some blue buses into service on some East London school routes, such as 149 on the Route (V)667

 

[Mikey C]

I believe route 318 now has the oldest average fleet of any London bus route. It's dominated by 57-reg Enviro 200s. I'm not quite certain how Arriva or any operator who wins the route (it must be up for tender soon) plan to replace the fleet, given you won't get anything but the smallest E200 or Streetlite around some of the roads in Tottenham. Certainly wouldn't be able to get a BYD around it.

On a similar tangent, the nearby 192 must be the most nightmarish route in London to operate. Before COVID almost every daytime service was crush-loaded within two or three stops, but as with the 318, the roads it uses between Enfield and Tottenham are a squeeze even for the smallest E200, and the frequency of the route is ludicrously high already.

I assume if they tendered on the basis of "existing" buses, they could use newer "existing" buses. Whether from within their fleet or elsewhere?

Indeed what will happen with routes using smaller buses like Solos? Will electric versions of the Solo or Streetlite be up to the job?

Walking around today, I saw 58-reg Metroline E200s on the 268 plus several 59 reg ones on other routes, in the not too distant future they will have to invest significantly in replacements

 

[Snow1964]

Replacing the 8.9m and 9m buses is a short term problem as there are currently no electric buses made in that size. However some more recent buses have become free such as those used on K1. But remains to be seen if the secondhand and lease market can get these to another London Operator.

Metroline might now have the oldest average fleet age, it has had negligible new buses in 2019-2021. It has a large number of buses that will need replacing in 2022-2024, including loads they inherited from First.