London Buses Discussion

[Snow1964]

TfL have resumed the school extras today after the Easter Break

There is no published end date yet, but rumoured they might be thinned mid May, and end at half term. Generally school years 11 and 13 finish early May, and capacity limits might go back up soon.


On a separate subject, Metroline are scheduled to take over route 328 (from Tower Transit) on 1st May using buses released by the 20 hydrogen ones. Although most of these have been delivered, there is apparently some problem with installing / commissioning the hydrogen refuelling station by the Norwegian company who won tender for it. Not sure how many spare hybrid buses Metroline can muster for the route.

Also on 1st May, RATP takes over 28 using recently refurbished 2013 built VH Volvo Gemini2, the batch originally ordered by Transdev for route 13. They will operate from Wandsworth (with main maintenance at Stamford Brook).

Another 1st May change is GoAhead taking over route 69 with new BYD-ADL E400EV (fleet Ee50-69)

A few temporary changes have finally ended, routes at Heron Quay (Canary Wharf) gone back to normal, must be about 6 years. Route 148 returns to White City on 1st May

 

[Mikey C]

Feels really weird that none of the 28/31/328 will be operated by their "home" operator TT (and their predecessors), considering the history with Westbourne Park garage operating the routes and the ill fated minibus experiment 30 years ago

 

[chopperman21]

RLH buses returned to East London yesterday (Sunday 18th) for a recreation of the Route 178 from Clapton Pond to Stratford/Maryland through part of the Olympic Park. RLH71 is seen in Hackney Wick

 

[Busaholic]

Feels really weird that none of the 28/31/328 will be operated by their "home" operator TT (and their predecessors), considering the history with Westbourne Park garage operating the routes and the ill fated minibus experiment 30 years ago

Scant consolation, but a Wandsworth allocation again on the 28 is better than other alternatives.

 

[Goldfish62]

Feels really weird that none of the 28/31/328 will be operated by their "home" operator TT (and their predecessors), considering the history with Westbourne Park garage operating the routes and the ill fated minibus experiment 30 years ago

I wouldn't call 15 years of progressively larger midibus operation before loading required conversion back to double deck an ill-fated experiment however nasty the MAs were.

 

[Busaholic]

I wouldn't call 15 years of progressively larger midibus operation before loading required conversion back to double deck an ill-fated experiment however nasty the MAs were.

The history of bus services in London has been rewritten over the last few years to downplay the role of Peter Hendy, and Leon Daniels a little later, in making the bus an acceptable, even welcoming, viable form of public transport to a much larger segment of the population. They both proved that being an enthusiast does not preclude one from having a realistic and wide-ranging idea of bus operation: equally, a total non-enthusiast with a degree of intelligence and aptitude can achieve the same. Unfortunately, though, such people are in increasingly short supply in an organisation like TfL, and might well be the objects of suspicion and jealousy from the sort of people who get elected to run things and want tame acolytes to enforce their latest nonsensical policies.

 

[Mikey C]

I wouldn't call 15 years of progressively larger midibus operation before loading required conversion back to double deck an ill-fated experiment however nasty the MAs were.

The MAs were atrocious, but even the first single door Darts were inappropriate for the job. It was a nightmare trying to get off the buses through all the people squashed into the front

It's not as if the number of people travelling on that corridor is drastically different now from the 1990s, they should have realised the scheme wasn't working and brought back double deckers far sooner

 

[Snow1964]

A number of routes changed Operators this weekend :

69 was Tower Transit, now GoAhead with new BYD-ADL E400EV operating from a new base at North Woolwich (Henley Road), coded DS (for Docklands). I understand Newham haven’t granted planning permission for this. It was initially described in planning documents as electric bus garage, but then GoAhead tried to add hazardous substance (diesel fuel and fuelling)

28 from Tower Transit to RATP using 2013 Volvo Wrightbus hybrids (originally ordered by Transdev for route 13) from Wandsworth garage (now coded JE for Jews Row), part is still used by sightseeing fleet. This garage started with horse trams 138 years ago

328 from Tower Transit to Metroline, it seems Metroline have taken on a batch of 2016 Volvo Wrightbus hybrids that were previously used by Tower Transit. Route 7 wasn’t able to release intended buses as the hydrogen fuelling at Perivale still not ready, although contract was announced by TfL 24 months ago (and was supposed to open late 2020)

315 changed from GoAhead to Abellio using short ADL E200s previously on K1 (which went to RATP last year)

 

[chopperman21]

Ex RATP London Streetdeck WH45252 has now been purchased by Ensignbus as a film bus, albeit it has been used on some of the extra TfL school services last week. pic: EBS1972. It also has received LED blinds like some of Stagecoach London E400's.

 

[MotCO]

Ex RATP London Streetdeck WH45252 has now been purchased by Ensignbus as a film bus, albeit it has been used on some of the extra TfL school services last week. pic: EBS1972. It also has received LED blinds like some of Stagecoach London E400's.

They expect to recover its cost by renting it to film companies to make guest appearances in films? I would not have thought that there was that much demand for buses, particularly if just restricting it to London.

 

[Mikey C]

Ex RATP London Streetdeck WH45252 has now been purchased by Ensignbus as a film bus, albeit it has been used on some of the extra TfL school services last week. pic: EBS1972. It also has received LED blinds like some of Stagecoach London E400's.

I'm surprised they're using something so new as a film bus, when for the purpose of TV or movies, a semi-retired E400 or Gemini 1 would surely be good enough?

I suppose though that they need something Euro VI compliant to be allowed to operate within the LEZ zone

They expect to recover its cost by renting it to film companies to make guest appearances in films? I would not have thought that there was that much demand for buses, particularly if just restricting it to London.

You regularly see scenes featuring a London bus, to let the audience know you're in London, even if the scene was filmed in Cardiff or Bristol

And of course the bus doesn't have to have genuinely operated in London, as long as it's a red double decker that's good enough!

 

[MotCO]

The London Omnibus Traction Society reports that route W15 has been won on tender by Go-Ahead from Tower Transit http://www.lots.org.uk/

Monday 10 May



1) LBSL intends to enter into a new contract for the following route with the operator listed below:

Route	Current Operator	New Operator	PVR​	Vehicles
W15	Tower Transit	London General	21​	Electric single deck

The above contract will commence on the 5th March 2022.

Over the last few months, Tower Transit has lost several routes, with routes 28, 69 and 328 recently changing hands. It will be left with about 200 buses operating out of two garages; will this be sustainable?

 

[90sWereBetter]

The London Omnibus Traction Society reports that route W15 has been won on tender by Go-Ahead from Tower Transit http://www.lots.org.uk/



Over the last few months, Tower Transit has lost several routes, with routes 28, 69 and 328 recently changing hands. It will be left with about 200 buses operating out of two garages; will this be sustainable?

Tower Transit are taking over the 414 from Abellio in October, which will add 20 buses to Westbourne Park's PVR (probably a good home for the ex-328 fleet currently on loan to Metroline), but I agree, it doesn't look particularly good for TT right now. I wonder if they overstretched themselves with all the east London work they took off Stagecoach a few years ago? Certainly things have gone into reverse after Stagecoach took the 25 and 425 away last summer...

In hindsight, I wonder if Tower Transit should have bought the rest of Centrewest's depots in 2013 instead of Metroline. It would have given them a slightly bigger footprint in the tender system (rather than two depots perched awkwardly either side of Zone 1), which may have helped them during the lean times (admittedly I'm speaking with zero knowledge of the inner workings of the tender system here!). On a enthusiast note, north-west London would be far more interesting instead of the Metroline/London United/Abellio triumvirate.

 

[Mikey C]

It does seem that TT "West" have lost a number of "core" routes like the 28/31/328, ones which run past the garage. And after the mess they initially made of the 13, it will be interesting if they retain that route.

 

[chopperman21]

It does seem that TT "West" have lost a number of "core" routes like the 28/31/328, ones which run past the garage. And after the mess they initially made of the 13, it will be interesting if they retain that route.

The 'mess' on the 13 has never improved, using the latest publically available TfL EWT performance data (26 periods from Period 11 2018 to Period 10 2020). The route 13 only passed its EWT target in 9 of those 26 periods, and of those 9 I would expect they would be peak lockdown periods.

 

[Mikey C]

The 'mess' on the 13 has never improved, using the latest publically available TfL EWT performance data (26 periods from Period 11 2018 to Period 10 2020). The route 13 only passed its EWT target in 9 of those 26 periods, and of those 9 I would expect they would be peak lockdown periods.

The obvious company to take back the 13 (or 82 as it was) is Metroline, but might TfL be worried about them becoming too dominant in the area?

 

[700007]

Tower Transit are taking over the 414 from Abellio in October, which will add 20 buses to Westbourne Park's PVR (probably a good home for the ex-328 fleet currently on loan to Metroline), but I agree, it doesn't look particularly good for TT right now. I wonder if they overstretched themselves with all the east London work they took off Stagecoach a few years ago? Certainly things have gone into reverse after Stagecoach took the 25 and 425 away last summer...

In hindsight, I wonder if Tower Transit should have bought the rest of Centrewest's depots in 2013 instead of Metroline. It would have given them a slightly bigger footprint in the tender system (rather than two depots perched awkwardly either side of Zone 1), which may have helped them during the lean times (admittedly I'm speaking with zero knowledge of the inner workings of the tender system here!). On a enthusiast note, north-west London would be far more interesting instead of the Metroline/London United/Abellio triumvirate.

If the 414 gets cut from Maids Hill to Marble Arch as consulted, then the PVR will be significantly lower than 20...possibly 6-7 less buses required. Word on the grape vine has it that the DNHs currently being released from the 23 will form the new 414 allocation and not the ex-328 VHs.

The 'mess' on the 13 has never improved, using the latest publically available TfL EWT performance data (26 periods from Period 11 2018 to Period 10 2020). The route 13 only passed its EWT target in 9 of those 26 periods, and of those 9 I would expect they would be peak lockdown periods.

The route may also be in line, alongside 113, for a significant PVR and frequency cut in the light of coronavirus changing the way people travel. Apparently PVR to be cut by as much as 25% on each route. Wonder how this will impact the poor reliability of the 13.

The obvious company to take back the 13 (or 82 as it was) is Metroline, but might TfL be worried about them becoming too dominant in the area?

Would like this, to be honest.

___

Other interesting news story is the current withdrawal most nights after 1800 lately of bus services in certain parts of Bromley (in particular the area around Leesons Hill, St. Paul's Cray) due to anti social behaviour and vandalism of multiple buses on the 273, R1 and R11. Does anyone know what the specifics are? This is a repeated incident involving various people with nothing better to do with their time.

 

[Snow1964]

The first London hydrogen double decker WHD2725 operated by Metroline appears to be in service today on route 7

 

[Deerfold]

The obvious company to take back the 13 (or 82 as it was) is Metroline, but might TfL be worried about them becoming too dominant in the area?

I don't think that's a factor they're allowed to consider when awarding tenders.

 

[smtglasgow]

Something I’ve wondered about for years, but never asked…

Is there any rhyme or reason behind which TfL cross-border services have survived and which have been lost. When I lived in Muswell Hill I had a friend who lived in Barnet and used to see the strictly non-TfL 84 heading out towards Potters Bar. But if I was in Cockfosters or Enfield, I could get to Potters Bar on my Oyster on the 298 or 313. So why are TfL supporting some links, but not others – it’s the same county they’re all heading into?

Elsewhere you’ve got TfL buses heading out to Brentwood, Slough or even Dorking, but somewhere like Waltham Cross is now a sort of bus Checkpoint Charlie. Is it all down to how much individual councils are prepared to contribute on each corridor – ie. not a blanket policy?

With bus provision in TfL-land still so much better than the surrounding areas, the drop in service levels once you leave their territory is stark – and, yes, I appreciate that the home counties have never been a happy hunting ground for buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that's a factor they're allowed to consider when awarding tenders.

It also doesn't really matter, because competition is at the point of tender and it has no effect on that. There is no competition at the point of use.

 

[Deerfold]

Something I’ve wondered about for years, but never asked…

Is there any rhyme or reason behind which TfL cross-border services have survived and which have been lost. When I lived in Muswell Hill I had a friend who lived in Barnet and used to see the strictly non-TfL 84 heading out towards Potters Bar. But if I was in Cockfosters or Enfield, I could get to Potters Bar on my Oyster on the 298 or 313. So why are TfL supporting some links, but not others – it’s the same county they’re all heading into?

Elsewhere you’ve got TfL buses heading out to Brentwood, Slough or even Dorking, but somewhere like Waltham Cross is now a sort of bus Checkpoint Charlie. Is it all down to how much individual councils are prepared to contribute on each corridor – ie. not a blanket policy?

With bus provision in TfL-land still so much better than the surrounding areas, the drop in service levels once you leave their territory is stark – and, yes, I appreciate that the home counties have never been a happy hunting ground for buses.

It's partly due to what other councils are prepared to support, but also some TfL services took over commercial services that stopped - whether this happened depended very much on the financial status and policies of TfL at the point.

The 84 isn't supported by TfL because it doesn't (or didn't) need to be. It used to be part of the ticketing agreement with TfL so you could use an Oyster card as far as Potters Bar (and you could only use Intalink tickets up to there, with a small overlap). Now it isn't it accepts Intalink tickets throughout.

The Dorking service was supported by Surrey Council. Waltham Cross has so many buses terminate there as it's a handy place to do it, so much as anything else.

The service to Slough used to be something of a money-spinner, but then TfL used to charge rather more on cross-boundary routes. Removing it now might be rather unpopular (and is likely to be used by Londoners travelling to work in Slough).

It is unfortunate that TfL doesn't participate in Plusbus or other counties' ticketing schemes so it's tricky to get multi-operator tickets in towns outside London where they have a presence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2021 ==

It also doesn't really matter, because competition is at the point of tender and it has no effect on that. There is no competition at the point of use.

I'm assuming that the inference was that if one company becomes too dominant, the number of tenderers may drop.

 

[MotCO]

It also doesn't really matter, because competition is at the point of tender and it has no effect on that. There is no competition at the point of use.

Is there any concern by TfL that a single company can take too dominant a position in London, for example, if Go-Ahead had won 75% of all routes? I think at one stage TfL were trying to encourage new entrants to the market.

 

[Mikey C]

It's partly due to what other councils are prepared to support, but also some TfL services took over commercial services that stopped - whether this happened depended very much on the financial status and policies of TfL at the point.

The 84 isn't supported by TfL because it doesn't (or didn't) need to be. It used to be part of the ticketing agreement with TfL so you could use an Oyster card as far as Potters Bar (and you could only use Intalink tickets up to there, with a small overlap). Now it isn't it accepts Intalink tickets throughout.

The Dorking service was supported by Surrey Council. Waltham Cross has so many buses terminate there as it's a handy place to do it, so much as anything else.

The service to Slough used to be something of a money-spinner, but then TfL used to charge rather more on cross-boundary routes. Removing it now might be rather unpopular (and is likely to be used by Londoners travelling to work in Slough).

It is unfortunate that TfL doesn't participate in Plusbus or other counties' ticketing schemes so it's tricky to get multi-operator tickets in towns outside London where they have a presence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2021 ==


I'm assuming that the inference was that if one company becomes too dominant, the number of tenderers may drop.

It still feels inconsistent that I can use my Oyster to get from Potters Bar all the way to Arnos Grove by the North Circular on the 298, but not use the 84 to go across the border to Barnet.

You wonder if the 84 JUST operated between Barnet and Potters Bar it would still be a TfL route, but because it continues north towards St Albans that it's this which is complicating things too much

 

[chopperman21]

The first London hydrogen double decker WHD2725 operated by Metroline appears to be in service today on route 7

A picture at Oxford Circus

 

[johncrossley]

It is unfortunate that TfL doesn't participate in Plusbus or other counties' ticketing schemes so it's tricky to get multi-operator tickets in towns outside London where they have a presence.

There is an exception: the Redhill Plusbus includes TfL bus 405.

 

[smtglasgow]

It still feels inconsistent that I can use my Oyster to get from Potters Bar all the way to Arnos Grove by the North Circular on the 298, but not use the 84 to go across the border to Barnet.

You wonder if the 84 JUST operated between Barnet and Potters Bar it would still be a TfL route, but because it continues north towards St Albans that it's this which is complicating things too much

It always seems quite arbitrary. The Potters Bar example always stood out for me because of the Metroline depot – obviously it was once an LT depot, so part of the network. Not sure when the 84 was dropped from Oyster, but I *think* that when I first moved to London (late 2000s) it was very recent. If you go back a bit, Barnet to Potters Bar was just another TfL/LRT route – did the 326 or 383 maybe do it for a while?

i'm sure there are other oddities elsewhere - it's just the part of London I know best.

 

[Deerfold]

There is an exception: the Redhill Plusbus includes TfL bus 405.

I didn't know that, thanks. I wonder if it's a requirement of local council funding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2021 ==

You wonder if the 84 JUST operated between Barnet and Potters Bar it would still be a TfL route, but because it continues north towards St Albans that it's this which is complicating things too much

Probably - and would probably see higher usage for this journey at TfL fares.

 

[Man of Kent]

Also turns out 465 accepts Dorking PlusBus, so may well be a condition of Surrey CC funding.

Watford PlusBus specifically exempts the 142 and 258. No mention at Slough.

 

[Deerfold]

Also turns out 465 accepts Dorking PlusBus, so may well be a condition of Surrey CC funding.

Watford PlusBus specifically exempts the 142 and 258. No mention at Slough.

Apart from this at https://plusbus.info/slough:

Additional Information:
Sorry, this ticket is not valid for travel on 'Transport for London' (red) bus route 81.