London Buses Discussion

[citybus2500]

If there were batteries there there'd be no stairs!

None of the post 2021 E400EVs, Electroliners or BZLs have glazed staircases.

As I said earlier, it's to allow fitting of the T-advert frame.

Actually, the additional batteries for the maximum range BD11 would go under the stairs. However, I doubt any London operator would need to operate the maximum range option.

 

[Goldfish62]

Actually, the additional batteries for the maximum range BD11 would go under the stairs. However, I doubt any London operator would need to operate the maximum range option.

Yes, I'm aware of that. The batteries go under the stairs where the fuel tank would normally, as per on the BYD E400EV, Electroliner etc. But not actually in place of the glazed staircase section as the poster was implying. The batteries are also at the rear of the bus and under the floor. On BZLs there are also some located under the front nearside wheelarch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2024 ==

Several photos at the factory of BYD BD11s for GoAhead and Metroline:

Sina Visitor System

I have no idea who the single decker is for. The handrails suggest it's GoAhead, but maybe it's a demonstrator.

 

[Hophead]

TfL buses are back on bustimes.org/map. A mixed blessing, as you have to zoom in more to see detail of anything in the areas around London once again.

Upcoming bus changes on TfL's web pages are still stuck on the Woodford area changes though.

 

[Goldfish62]

TfL buses are back on bustimes.org/map. A mixed blessing, as you have to zoom in more to see detail of anything in the areas around London once again.

Upcoming bus changes on TfL's web pages are still stuck on the Woodford area changes though.

I think it's just because the specific feed that Bustimes.org uses has been reinstated. Some of the trip information is complete nonsense and non-tracking routes aren't showing.

None of this will be resolved until staff can regain access to Adiona and update all the out of date schedules, plus that Adiona can regain its interface with iBus.

 

[londonbridge]

Last night I was outside Fairfield Halls Croydon and the 154 and 403 were diverting through the underpass and heading off without stopping. Other passengers were wondering what was going on until someone pointed out a notice on the stop saying they were unable to serve the stop due to emergency works in Wellesley Road. I walked down to the Whitgift Centre and boarded my bus there. What I’m wondering is, rather than skipping Fairfield Halls, could they not have sent the busses right round the flyover and back towards the Whitgift before doing a u-turn at the George Street junction to get back on the line of route? Or else diverted them along Dingwall road and down George Street and then turn left at the Sainsburys local and back on route that way?

 

[busesrusuk]

Today saw a running day take place based on Archway. Star of the show (to me at least!) was the first outing for the fully restored Bristol LH, BS5. This batch of 17 vehicles were used to replace the Ford Transit FS class used on LT's first "minibus" services but they didn't last to long in service with LT. Surprisingly, two have just been restored to original condition and BS5 made its debut today; its hoped that sister BS4 will hit the road very shortly to.

A few pics from today focussing on vehicles other than RT and RM types:

Keith Wood

Explore Keith Wood’s 9,630 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

HTIOI

 

[Mikey C]

I just don't think they can be bothered with appearance. Just spray the whole thing red, job done. Just look at the interiors of Metroline's new buses compared with that of other London operators - minimum done to meet the spec.

I commented on the "all red " Metroline E400MMCs a while ago, as it looks cheap.

It's like when Routemasters were repainted all red, including the radiator grille and the brightwork surrounding the grille which looked awful.

 

[Goldfish62]

I commented on the "all red " Metroline E400MMCs a while ago, as it looks cheap.

It's like when Routemasters were repainted all red, including the radiator grille and the brightwork surrounding the grille which looked awful.

I seem to recall that in the NBC days Crosville did that with Lodekkas and they of course looked awful.

 

[Ghostbus]

Anyone know if the proposed "London Bus Company" (taking tenders in house as and when they expire, pursuant to full public control of London's buses) announced in April by the Mayor, has been abandoned?

I note tenders are still being awarded, but that's no biggie. Unlike the railways, once begun, a tipping point is surely soon reached where private operators would voluntarily give up their remaining tenders rather than run a handful of buses from half empty depots.

Is it a dead duck? Killed off by a lack of backing by central government? Unforeseen issues with depot/vehicle financing or union power? Could they be waiting for forthcoming planning system changes to get depots on the cheap? Or is Khan waiting for the municipal operator legislation currently headed through Parliament, so he doesn't even have to go through the sham of London tendering to itself via an arms length company?

On a quick Googling I can't see any public announcements newer than six months old.

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyone know if the proposed "London Bus Company" (taking tenders in house as and when they expire, pursuant to full public control of London's buses) announced in April by the Mayor, has been abandoned?

There's no such plan. Khan pledged to review the possibility of setting up a publicly owned bus operation. End of.

 

[Edvid]

LOTS update on electrics, from yesterday:

Go-Ahead London has placed several large orders, including 38 more BYD B11E02s (for routes 129 and 320), 131 Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliners and 53 Wrightbus GB-Kites. Routes for the latter types are to be announced.

Arriva London has also ordered some of the new BYD double-decker (the B11E02), with 66 due for routes 34, 141 and SL1. A further order is for 30 ADL Enviro 400EVs for routes 196 and SL6.

Stagecoach has ordered 13 StreetDeck Electroliners for route 247 (NS), which will be numbered 82083-82095. The 17 ADL Enviro 400EVs for the SL3 (TB) are expected to be numbered 80401-80417.

On that same theme, Arriva Group issued a press release on the recent electrification of Thornton Heath depot:

07 Nov 2024

Arriva electrifies third London bus depot​

• Thornton Heath to service 109 zero-emission vehicles.
• Work underway at further four London bus depots.
• Arriva’s entire bus operation in London to be emission-free by 2030.

Arriva has electrified a third London bus depot, marking a significant milestone in its journey towards a zero-emission future in the capital.

The operator’s Thornton Heath site in south London will run 109 zero-emission vehicles from spring 2025 following the successful installation of a new electricity substation and advanced charging facilities.

Thornton Heath is the third depot to benefit from Arriva’s £730m modernisation programme, which will see all 14 of its depots in the capital electrified by 2030 – supporting Transport for London (TfL) in its goal to fully decarbonise the city’s bus fleet by the same year. Arriva operates around 100 contracted routes on behalf of TfL, with a fleet of 1,500 buses.

Jens Abromeit, Managing Director, Arriva UK Bus, said: “I’m proud that our programme of depot electrification is gathering pace in London with this third depot now ready to serve a substantial fleet of zero-emission buses. This represents a significant investment for Arriva and a commitment to working in partnership with TfL to deliver on their decarbonisation agenda. With each depot we electrify, we are reducing emissions and improving air quality, whilst also setting new standards in passenger comfort.”

A new electricity substation was installed at Thornton Heath with 5km of underground cabling required to handle the increased demand from charging multiple buses simultaneously. The depot will initially service 22 electric buses, increasing to 109 once the project completes in spring next year, following the removal of diesel refuelling tanks from the site.

Thornton Heath is the third of Arriva’s depots in London to be electrified after Brixton Tramshed and Enfield were connected to the grid in 2021, servicing a fleet of 54 electric buses.

Work to electrify Arriva’s depots in Tottenham, Palmers Green, Croydon and Norwood is currently underway, with the remainder to follow.

Arriva UK Bus is one of the market leaders in London, operating around 17% of all bus services in the capital.

 

[Snow1964]

The recent electric bus order announcements and tender wins (where bus will be EV, but type on order is not yet known) takes the total of electric buses in London to over 3000

Roughly 8800 buses in the fleet, so now know over third will be electric by end of 2025 (although some deliveries might be early 2026)

TfL moved away from diesel after about 2018 (there are just 187 diesel single decks and 333 hybrid double decks delivered 2019, or early 2020), nothing since. So coming up to 5 years since anything with diesel engine was ordered.

 

[MotCO]

The recent electric bus order announcements and tender wins (where bus will be EV, but type on order is not yet known) takes the total of electric buses in London to over 3000

Roughly 8800 buses in the fleet, so now know over third will be electric by end of 2025 (although some deliveries might be early 2026)

TfL moved away from diesel after about 2018 (there are just 187 diesel single decks and 333 hybrid double decks delivered 2019, or early 2020), nothing since. So coming up to 5 years since anything with diesel engine was ordered.

Also of note is that there are 104 BYD double deckers, 131 Wright double deckers and only 17 ADL EV 400s on order. Is this the start of a worrying trend for ADL?

 

[Goldfish62]

Also of note is that there are 104 BYD double deckers, 131 Wright double deckers and only 17 ADL EV 400s on order. Is this the start of a worrying trend for ADL?

I noticed that as well. Not just the start of the trend - the lack of orders for the E400EV this year so far has been concerning, as is the fact that ADL aren't even launching the E200EV until next year.

 

[Ghostbus]

The recent electric bus order announcements and tender wins (where bus will be EV, but type on order is not yet known) takes the total of electric buses in London to over 3000

Roughly 8800 buses in the fleet, so now know over third will be electric by end of 2025 (although some deliveries might be early 2026)

TfL moved away from diesel after about 2018 (there are just 187 diesel single decks and 333 hybrid double decks delivered 2019, or early 2020), nothing since. So coming up to 5 years since anything with diesel engine was ordered.

That's not the whole story though is it? There are 2009 built ex-London diesel buses still belching out smoke up and down the country, on schools contracts no less. So if nothing changes about the way the UK procures buses, those 2019 hybrids will be around past 2040.

I can't help wonder what might have been, had Mayor Khan not turned away from the major change in philosophy represented by the New Routemaster. A wholly owned full life bus fleet, fully supporting a UK manufacturer, the only one out of all other UK/European builders who as early as 2009 seemed to have decided to invest heavily and fully commit to a future where the wheels of a bus are driven by an electric motor, whether as a hybrid or full electric. Wrightbus 2.0 are unsurprisingly still pursuing this strategy, albeit having lost much ground in the mean time.

Speaking of which, are there any plans to convert the New Routemasters to full electric? Apparently it can be done, as you would have thought given who built it and why, and for significantly less than the cost of a new bus. What's the theoretical maximum life span of an electric NRM, I wonder?

Nobody seems to want to keep an Enviro400 in front line service much beyond fifteen years, whether it's a full diesel or a hybrid. Especially when it's an ex-London vehicle. But unlike London, operators like Lothian seem fine with working a 2011 diesel bus for almost its full life, and I've not heard any reports of those buses belching black smoke in their final years.

Only once it can no longer give sterling service on intensive city work, is it replaced with a brand new bus, in pursuit of a clear policy of transitioning the fleet as fast as manufacturers can facilitate. Had Mayor Khan not made that fateful decision, I can well imagine that new Lothian bus would be an all electric Wrightbus integral by now, and by no means their first. As it stands, Lothian only has only a handful of electrics, and they're only coming into squadron service literally as I type.

 

[Goldfish62]

I can't help wonder what might have been, had Mayor Khan not turned away from the major change in philosophy represented by the New Routemaster. A wholly owned full life bus fleet, fully supporting a UK manufacturer, the only one out of all other UK/European builders who as early as 2009 seemed to have decided to invest heavily and fully commit to a future where the wheels of a bus are driven by an electric motor, whether as a hybrid or full electric. Wrightbus 2.0 are unsurprisingly still pursuing this strategy, albeit having lost much ground in the mean time.

Speaking of which, are there any plans to convert the New Routemasters to full electric? Apparently it can be done, as you would have thought given who built it and why, and for significantly less than the cost of a new bus. What's the theoretical maximum life span of an electric NRM, I wonder?

The NRMs are junk, hated by engineers. Their fuel consumption is worse than similarly aged other hybrids and the batteries need replacing more often. They're an obsolete design which should never have seen the light of day - you can blame Johnson for that.

One was converted a couple of years ago but has hardly ever been used. Range is apparently impractical. So I think that idea's dead. With the first of the NRMs coming up to 14 years old (and getting very rattly) I'll be glad to see their numbers start being depleted, although I doubt if many if any find a second life elsewhere.

 

[PGAT]

The ie Trams have entered service on the 358 with 8 of them currently out now

 

[Snow1964]

The ie Trams have entered service on the 358 with 8 of them currently out now

Finally they get used.

The 358 contract started 19/09/20, so has taken 4 years and 2 months for its electric bus conversion.

 

[Goldfish62]

Finally they get used.

The 358 contract started 19/09/20, so has taken 4 years and 2 months for its electric bus conversion.

Just now needs TfL's planners to restructure the 358 and for GoAhead to lose the contract upon retender.

 

[MotCO]

Not sure if there any issues, but one is currently turning short at Bromley North, and another at Green Street Green.

 

[Kay_M]

Not sure if there any issues, but one is currently turning short at Bromley North, and another at Green Street Green.

There seems to be some road works around the Langley Park area which could be affecting the service.

 

[MotCO]

There seems to be some road works around the Langley Park area which could be affecting the service.

That's probably it. Some Citaros are also being turned early.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Also of note is that there are 104 BYD double deckers, 131 Wright double deckers and only 17 ADL EV 400s on order. Is this the start of a worrying trend for ADL?

They are the only ADL E400EVs *announced*. It's understood that more have been ordered, just not announced officially yet.

 

[Edsmith]

The NRMs are junk, hated by engineers. Their fuel consumption is worse than similarly aged other hybrids and the batteries need replacing more often. They're an obsolete design which should never have seen the light of day - you can blame Johnson for that.

One was converted a couple of years ago but has hardly ever been used. Range is apparently impractical. So I think that idea's dead. With the first of the NRMs coming up to 14 years old (and getting very rattly) I'll be glad to see their numbers start being depleted, although I doubt if many if any find a second life elsewhere.

They're not hated by engineers at all, you might hate them but don't assume that everyone else does.

 

[MotCO]

I've taken some photos of the new Irizar iE trams on route 358 in Orpington. Apologies for poor quality due to failing light.

Irizar iE11 The Crescent Orpington 20 No 2024

First day of operation of the new Irizar iE Trams on route 358. (Apols for poor quality due to failing light.)

www.flickr.com

Irizar iE11 The Crescent Orpington 20 No 2024 Rear

First day of operation of the new Irizar iE Trams on route 358. (Apols for poor quality due to failing light.)

www.flickr.com

iE 16 Orpington The Crescent 20 Nov 2024

First day of operation of the new Irizar iE Trams on route 358. (Apols for poor quality due to failing light.)

www.flickr.com

 

[JD2168]

At long last for the Irizar IE Trams to see service. Will be interesting to see what the passengers & drivers make of them & whether the wait was worth it or not.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Finally they get used.

The 358 contract started 19/09/20, so has taken 4 years and 2 months for its electric bus conversion.

Though the contract for the ie trams was only signed in October 2022.

 

[PGAT]

Though the contract for the ie trams was only signed in October 2022.

Two different things. 2020 was when GoAhead retained the route

 

[Deerfold]

They're not hated by engineers at all, you might hate them but don't assume that everyone else does.

There's good reasons they didn't manage to sell a single one to anyone outside London and why TfL had to buy them as no operator wanted them left on their hands.

 

[Mikey C]

There's good reasons they didn't manage to sell a single one to anyone outside London and why TfL had to buy them as no operator wanted them left on their hands.

They were a bespoke bus with 3 doors and 2 staircases. It's hardly a surprise that operators outside London didn't buy them.