London bus route ideas

[LO_commuter]

My first thread on this forum
I don't think I've found a thread like this so I've made one myself. Just wanted to see people's ideas on new bus routes in London. I would propose one that links Russell Square and East London. Something like a Camden Town to Limehouse route

 

[Busaholic]

My first thread on this forum
I don't think I've found a thread like this so I've made one myself. Just wanted to see people's ideas on new bus routes in London. I would propose one that links Russell Square and East London. Something like a Camden Town to Limehouse route

Welcome to the forum. London bus routes have always been something of an obsession with me even though it's many years since I lived there, but I keep abreast with developments from afar.

I'm not quite sure why you think Russell Square is specifically in need of a connection to East London, perhaps Limehouse as you suggest. The 205 route that was instigated a few years ago at the time of the introduction of the Congestion Charge provides a useful link from Euston, a short way north of Russell Square, to Mile End and Bow Church in East London, a little north of Limehouse, granted, but not so very different as to require an entirely new route, I would have thought. What the 205 would benefit from imo is a garage allocation from each end of the route to even up the service during times of bad traffic congestion, but this would not be possible under the current tendering system.

Mention of Limehouse, though, leads me to my own thoughts of a gap in the bus network these last few years, namely a connection from London Bridge to points east of Aldgate down the Commercial Road as far as Poplar. This was provided for decades by the 40 through from Camberwell and Elephant, now cut back to Aldgate, and is a journey difficult to do by other means of public transport, especially in peak hours. If re-introduced, perhaps the 15 could be pushed on once more as far as Canning Town from Blackwall Tunnel and bridge the comparative bus desert between those two points these days.

Elephant and London Bridge also used to have a direct connection to Bow and Stratford in the former route 10, but with the Jubilee Line now it might be too much to expect a revival along those lines!

 

[Antman]

Welcome to the forum. London bus routes have always been something of an obsession with me even though it's many years since I lived there, but I keep abreast with developments from afar.

I'm not quite sure why you think Russell Square is specifically in need of a connection to East London, perhaps Limehouse as you suggest. The 205 route that was instigated a few years ago at the time of the introduction of the Congestion Charge provides a useful link from Euston, a short way north of Russell Square, to Mile End and Bow Church in East London, a little north of Limehouse, granted, but not so very different as to require an entirely new route, I would have thought. What the 205 would benefit from imo is a garage allocation from each end of the route to even up the service during times of bad traffic congestion, but this would not be possible under the current tendering system.

Mention of Limehouse, though, leads me to my own thoughts of a gap in the bus network these last few years, namely a connection from London Bridge to points east of Aldgate down the Commercial Road as far as Poplar. This was provided for decades by the 40 through from Camberwell and Elephant, now cut back to Aldgate, and is a journey difficult to do by other means of public transport, especially in peak hours. If re-introduced, perhaps the 15 could be pushed on once more as far as Canning Town from Blackwall Tunnel and bridge the comparative bus desert between those two points these days.

Elephant and London Bridge also used to have a direct connection to Bow and Stratford in the former route 10, but with the Jubilee Line now it might be too much to expect a revival along those lines!

Yes I remember when the 40 provided a useful south/east London link.

How about extending the 115 to London Bridge?

 

[Andyh82]

One gap I always find when I'm a tourist is a bus along the embankment and then up back into the main west end shops bit.

I would extend the 388 from Blackfriars to Trafalgar Square via Northumberland Avenue

The fact there is only one route past The Tower I find odd as well, you can only get the 15 which only takes you to Trafalgar Square, there are no other routes back into Central London which is unusual.

 

[Busaholic]

One gap I always find when I'm a tourist is a bus along the embankment and then up back into the main west end shops bit.

I would extend the 388 from Blackfriars to Trafalgar Square via Northumberland Avenue

The fact there is only one route past The Tower I find odd as well, you can only get the 15 which only takes you to Trafalgar Square, there are no other routes back into Central London which is unusual.

TfL seems not to want a route along the Embankment: the 388 got extended along it from Blackfriars as far as Temple Station when Blackfriars Station was closed for a long period, and then a bit further 'in service' to Charing Cross tube (this had been a 'dead' operation at first) but as soon as Blackfriars reopened it got cut back again.

The 15 has been cut so much over the last few years, including so-called 'temporary' cuts like terminating at Trafalgar Square rather than Regent Street, which looks like it may become permanent by osmosis. The 'heritage' Routemaster part of the 15 when originally mooted was going to terminate at Piccadilly Circus, but in reality this would have been in Lower Regent Street a couple of hundred yards short of the Circus, which would not have been a huge PR success. Lack of suitable layover space was probably the official reason for it not going ahead.

 

[Antman]

TfL seems not to want a route along the Embankment: the 388 got extended along it from Blackfriars as far as Temple Station when Blackfriars Station was closed for a long period, and then a bit further 'in service' to Charing Cross tube (this had been a 'dead' operation at first) but as soon as Blackfriars reopened it got cut back again.

The 15 has been cut so much over the last few years, including so-called 'temporary' cuts like terminating at Trafalgar Square rather than Regent Street, which looks like it may become permanent by osmosis. The 'heritage' Routemaster part of the 15 when originally mooted was going to terminate at Piccadilly Circus, but in reality this would have been in Lower Regent Street a couple of hundred yards short of the Circus, which would not have been a huge PR success. Lack of suitable layover space was probably the official reason for it not going ahead.

Lack of layover space is a common problem in Central London largely due to the way routes have been shortened over the years

 

[Busaholic]

Yes I remember when the 40 provided a useful south/east London link.

How about extending the 115 to London Bridge?

Your latter suggestion, while more likely to happen than mine, would have to incorporate an increased frequency, I feel, especially in the rush hours. Maybe a compromise would be for the 40 to be extended to Stepney, Arbour Square, assuming the latter is still a suitable terminal - a lot of 40s used to terminate there, a few scheduled but mostly traffic casualties.

Now what about extending the 254 from Aldgate to LB? That would provide some useful connections. Every second bus extended should be enough, although this is frowned upon.

 

[edwin_m]

I was frequently visiting a client in Victoria last year and was rather surprised that there was no bus to my employer's nearest office near Holborn (but not within easy walk of Oxford Circus). It's rather an awkward journey by Tube with two stops, a change and one more stop, not to mention negotiating the hellhole that is the Victoria station rebuilding.

 

[Busaholic]

I was frequently visiting a client in Victoria last year and was rather surprised that there was no bus to my employer's nearest office near Holborn (but not within easy walk of Oxford Circus). It's rather an awkward journey by Tube with two stops, a change and one more stop, not to mention negotiating the hellhole that is the Victoria station rebuilding.

For virtually all of the last century and a good few years into this one there was a link, for decades by the 25 and latterly by the 8. A combination of two factors put paid to the connection, firstly the construction of Crossrail which meant the closure of Davies Street next to Bond Street tube and secondly the slightly obsessive (imo) desire of TfL to reduce the number of routes using Oxford Street. After Berkeley Square, Oxford Circus is the only place still served by the successor to the 25 and 8, the C2, now from the Regent Street direction. Some bus passengers to Victoria from North London may have switched to the C2 from the 24, but I'd agree with you that what was a very useful link to Holborn, Chancery Lane and Holborn Viaduct has been lost.

 

[PermitToTravel]

TfL having said that all the "paths" on Oxford Street freed up were filled with taxis, they should reverse their decision and run all the buses again - most of these taxis are far more polluting than buses are!

 

[matt_world2004]

In west London there needs to be some more north to south London semi circle routes. Getting from say Southall/Hayes to Kingston is a nightmare busses linking Uxbridge with the northern branch of the metropolitan line would also be really helpful.

 

[Antman]

TfL having said that all the "paths" on Oxford Street freed up were filled with taxis, they should reverse their decision and run all the buses again - most of these taxis are far more polluting than buses are!

I think that there are too many buses and taxi's in Oxford Street and it's subsequently often gridlocked.

In the long term I suspect it will be pedestrianised with buses rerouted around the back streets.

 

[edwin_m]

I think that there are too many buses and taxi's in Oxford Street and it's subsequently often gridlocked.

In the long term I suspect it will be pedestrianised with buses rerouted around the back streets.

I agree there are too many, but from what I've seen of the back streets (including on bus diversions) they aren't really useable either. The nearest parallel streets either side with even vaguely straight through routes are between 100m and 300m away. East of Regent Street there isn't really one at all on the south side (through Soho) and Mortimer Street (one way) gets further away to the north.

Hence getting rid of the buses would probably just make things worse because people would be more likely to use taxis. Three taxis use about the same amount of road as a but when nose to tail, and more in the unusual even that they are moving, but carry no more than a fifth of the passengers.

However in my (admittedly rather limited) experience the Oxford Street buses do often have plenty of seats available, so possibly it is a question of having too many routes each of which needs a certain frequency but perhaps Oxford Street isn't the busiest part of the route. This would be unsurprising with the Central Line providing an alternative - and it's probably often quicker to walk anyway. Crossrail will provide another option in a few years time.

Perhaps the solution is to reduce the number of routes on Oxford Street by terminating some at Marble Arch and TCR Tube, or linking them together there to make more north-south routes? This would need two things: timed transfer at no extra cost on London buses, and stop layouts that allow "same platform" interchange between the routes without having to cross busy roads.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It would be far nicer and more efficient to lose the taxis than lose the buses, though.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I never go to London often. But when I do visit I use London Underground zones 1&2 which covered everywhere I wanted to go so no bus use needed.
The exception was on the Thames where a replica of Drake's ship was. We had to walk to get to see it, it was near Globe threatre rebuild. It must be hard for tourists who struggle walking to get there. Could a bus run there?

 

[Antman]

I agree there are too many, but from what I've seen of the back streets (including on bus diversions) they aren't really useable either. The nearest parallel streets either side with even vaguely straight through routes are between 100m and 300m away. East of Regent Street there isn't really one at all on the south side (through Soho) and Mortimer Street (one way) gets further away to the north.

Hence getting rid of the buses would probably just make things worse because people would be more likely to use taxis. Three taxis use about the same amount of road as a but when nose to tail, and more in the unusual even that they are moving, but carry no more than a fifth of the passengers.

However in my (admittedly rather limited) experience the Oxford Street buses do often have plenty of seats available, so possibly it is a question of having too many routes each of which needs a certain frequency but perhaps Oxford Street isn't the busiest part of the route. This would be unsurprising with the Central Line providing an alternative - and it's probably often quicker to walk anyway. Crossrail will provide another option in a few years time.

Perhaps the solution is to reduce the number of routes on Oxford Street by terminating some at Marble Arch and TCR Tube, or linking them together there to make more north-south routes? This would need two things: timed transfer at no extra cost on London buses, and stop layouts that allow "same platform" interchange between the routes without having to cross busy roads.

I think trams would be the ideal solution for Oxford Street.

Buses are often nearly empty as people often find it quicker to get off and walk.

 

[ainsworth74]

It must be hard for tourists who struggle walking to get there. Could a bus run there?

There are already a plethora of bus routes which link the Globe to Blackfriars Bridge, Cannon Street, Mansion House, Southwark Street, Southwark Bridge Road. These either link into other bus routes or to Underground stations.

 

[telstarbox]

I'm surprised there isn't a direct link between Canary Wharf and City Airport (as a limited stop route). Changing on the DLR at Westferry is the fastest route but this involves going down to street level and back up.

 

[edwin_m]

It would be far nicer and more efficient to lose the taxis than lose the buses, though.

It would, but for the same reason the buses have to stay on Oxford Street I suggest there is still a need for taxis to have access, annoying though they are!

According to London Reconnections, Tottenham Court Road is going to have taxi access to virtually its full length but taxis will only be allowed to travel along it for short distances. Another solution for Oxford Street might be several "bus plugs" so that only taxis picking up and dropping off close by will be able to use any part of it. But do many through taxis use it today considering how slow it is, and are the side streets up to it?

 

[Busaholic]

There'll be one less bus route using Oxford Street if a current TfL consultation exercise comes to pass. The venerable 13 route will cease to exist, with only limited coverage by extensions of other routes (the 113 back to Oxford Circus, but the 189 does the reverse move to Marble Arch). The only bit of route that gains is the 139 extended in service from West Hampstead to Golders Green, which used to happen when it was Routemaster operated anyway.

As mentioned in previous posts, lack of alternative routes and limited stand capacity is the negative side to reducing the number of buses using Oxford Street, but use could be made of Wigmore Street for buses to/from Baker Street, as used to happen with the 59 and 159.

 

[Antman]

There'll be one less bus route using Oxford Street if a current TfL consultation exercise comes to pass. The venerable 13 route will cease to exist, with only limited coverage by extensions of other routes (the 113 back to Oxford Circus, but the 189 does the reverse move to Marble Arch). The only bit of route that gains is the 139 extended in service from West Hampstead to Golders Green, which used to happen when it was Routemaster operated anyway.

As mentioned in previous posts, lack of alternative routes and limited stand capacity is the negative side to reducing the number of buses using Oxford Street, but use could be made of Wimpole Street for buses to/from Baker Street, as used to happen with the 59 and 159.

The proposal to withdraw the 13 is ridiculous, Abbey Road is overbussed but Finchley Road gets the reductions:cry:

 

[Deerfold]

I think trams would be the ideal solution for Oxford Street.

Where would these trams go to once you're past Oxford Street? Would other bus passengers have to change at each end of the Street?

Buses are often nearly empty as people often find it quicker to get off and walk.

Some buses are very quiet (often those near the end of their route), others very busy in my experience.

 

[Busaholic]

The proposal to withdraw the 13 is ridiculous, Abbey Road is overbussed but Finchley Road gets the reductions:cry:

There'll be some long gaps on Finchley Road with only the 82 and 113, forcing more people on to the Jubilee Line. I know the Year of the Bus was 2014 but surely this is a move too far. An estimated reduction in the PVR of seven will be achieved at a time of rising bus use. London Sovereign will be the big loser, the 13 being their only trunk route, and for a while the only Routemaster route with Sunday operation. It was also the route with the longest continuous operation by Routemaster. I can't see it going to its demise without a fight by the locals. As a kid, I used to stand outside London Bridge Station and watch 13s come in and then work in service to Rye Lane Garage, destination read 'Peckham via Peckham Hill Street', not that I ever got to travel on one.

I've posted on other threads about Oxford Street and trams, echoing what Deerfold says but also imo it would be a minimum three or four years of disruption with the Oxford Street Traders' Association or whatever they're called calling for its scrapping after about three months and becoming more and more vocal in opposition. No incumbent Mayor would earn another term and, in short, the Edinburgh tram and Princes Street would be a vicarage tea party by comparison. No-one has ever answered my question as to where the depot would be built either!

 

[philjo]

I think trolleybuses would be better than a tram as the buses can then be diverted - there is often a need in Centrla London to do this for various reasons. and no disruption in laying tracks.

Start by wiring Oxford Street and probably later extend up to Euston via Gower St/tottenham Court Road - 73/390/10 etc all covered and another wired route via piccadilly. The bus can use its own batteries/engine when off the wires but it removes the emissions/noise from the central area.

It would be useful to have a bus from St john's wood (for Lord's) that goes to Euston/Kings Cross - maybe an extension of the 63 & route it past the Zoo?

 

[Deerfold]

I never go to London often.

Eh?

But when I do visit I use London Underground zones 1&2 which covered everywhere I wanted to go so no bus use needed.
The exception was on the Thames where a replica of Drake's ship was. We had to walk to get to see it, it was near Globe threatre rebuild. It must be hard for tourists who struggle walking to get there. Could a bus run there?

There's 11 day routes stop within 100 metres at the bottom of London Bridge (the bridge, not the station).

It can be nice to get a few buses so you actually see some of London outside the spots you're visiting.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Perhaps the solution is to reduce the number of routes on Oxford Street by terminating some at Marble Arch and TCR Tube, or linking them together there to make more north-south routes? This would need two things: timed transfer at no extra cost on London buses, and stop layouts that allow "same platform" interchange between the routes without having to cross busy roads.

The gyratories at Marble Arch and St Giles Circus would permit same platform interchange between buses in different directions, but I suspect that flooding either with buses wouldn't do capacity any favours. Neither, unfortunately, would permit pedestrian access to Oxford Street itself without having to use an unsatisfactory crossing.

It would, but for the same reason the buses have to stay on Oxford Street I suggest there is still a need for taxis to have access, annoying though they are!

According to London Reconnections, Tottenham Court Road is going to have taxi access to virtually its full length but taxis will only be allowed to travel along it for short distances. Another solution for Oxford Street might be several "bus plugs" so that only taxis picking up and dropping off close by will be able to use any part of it. But do many through taxis use it today considering how slow it is, and are the side streets up to it?

It will be very interesting to see how they sign (and enforce - I can't imagine a single cabbie obeying something as inconsequential as a turn restriction voluntarily!) the new taxi rules at Tottenham Court Road; I wonder if whatever provisions are made could be carried over to Oxford Street. I'm not quite sure that the balance on Oxford Street is presently correct: there used to be more buses and less taxis, and I get the impression that the buses carried more passengers then - presumably the difference is now people getting off at the terminus of their newly curtailed route and walking the length of Oxford Street.

 

[edwin_m]

It will be very interesting to see how they sign (and enforce - I can't imagine a single cabbie obeying something as inconsequential as a turn restriction voluntarily!) the new taxi rules at Tottenham Court Road; I wonder if whatever provisions are made could be carried over to Oxford Street.

How about ANPR (extra cameras on the system already in place for the congestion charge) enforced by immediate loss of cab license unless there is a very good excuse.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The signage still sounds interesting. I suppose one method that would work would be the Left Turn Only sign being placed at every junction or every other junction, with supplementary plate "Except buses and cycles". I like your enforcement idea

 

[jopsuk]

Careful now, if you're man to those poor downtrodden cabbies by suggesting they actually have to comply with the law you'll be accused of being worse than Stalin or something.

 

[Busaholic]

There'll be one less bus route using Oxford Street if a current TfL consultation exercise comes to pass. The venerable 13 route will cease to exist, with only limited coverage by extensions of other routes (the 113 back to Oxford Circus, but the 189 does the reverse move to Marble Arch). The only bit of route that gains is the 139 extended in service from West Hampstead to Golders Green, which used to happen when it was Routemaster operated anyway.

As mentioned in previous posts, lack of alternative routes and limited stand capacity is the negative side to reducing the number of buses using Oxford Street, but use could be made of Wigmore Street for buses to/from Baker Street, as used to happen with the 59 and 159.

I gather Boris has vetoed these changes while he remains mayor i.e. word has got round in the Hampstead constituency which is a Labour-held marginal!