London Bridge

[Nick66]

Not a dispute as such, more just a question out of idle curiosity. I travel through London Bridge most days changing from a Southern service to the tube via the new low-level concourse. There are always a lot of Southeastern staff at the gatelines, many presumably RPIs, but never anyone from Southern. This morning a young lady left the Southern train I was on, went down the stairs in front of me and headed straight to the Excess Fares window where she was met by a Southeastern employee. I’ve no idea what was said but she handed him a piece of paper so presumably everything was above board, but it does raise the question as to whether an RPI from Southeastern has any authority to question a Southern passenger. If not, isn’t unfair that Southern passengers could conceivably get away with fare dodging as there are never any Southern RPIs there? Not anything I would ever condone of course, I have a Travelcard and believe in paying for the service I receive (and claiming Delay Repay when I don’t!)

 

[221129]

Any suitably trained TOC employee can question and report another TOCs passenger. However can't penalty fare unless there is an agreement in place.

 

[island]

As I understand it, Southern and Southeastern have reciprocal agreements for their Authorised Collectors to charge Penalty Fares to the other’s customers.

 

[tsr]

There are no Southern RPIs at London Bridge because there are no Southern RPIs...

As I understand it, Southern and Southeastern have reciprocal agreements for their Authorised Collectors to charge Penalty Fares to the other’s customers.

Basically, yes.

Southern Authorised Collectors have also historically been authorised to deal with customers of SWR, London Overground, GWR and routes formerly under the LM franchise. I believe there may be some variation amongst different staff now, in terms of who can collect for which TOC. And Southern Authorised Collectors are obviously part of GTR, and can swap between brands, just like staff from GX/TL/GN.

Southern still have Authorised Collectors - OBSs are being trained up and there are also Rail Enforcement Officers, although those are as rare as hen’s teeth.

 

[gray1404]

Totally wrong that OBS are being trained at Authorised Collectors. That could end up messy given they are lone workers.

I have been refused entry onto a Thameslink service using a Southern ticket (travelling to Brighton) by South Eastern gateline staff. I tried two different sets of gates and they both said I'd have to ask the Southern staff at the other gateline. This was on an evening when there was ongoing strike disruption with a reduced timetable and ticket acceptance was put in place across all GTR brands on an ongoing basis. When I explained that Southern tickets were being accepted on Thameslink both sets of gatelines said they didn't know and to go and ask at the Southern gateline.

When I got to the Southern gateline I was let through, and with a friendly smile and a thank you, after my ticket had been examined in great detail (look ages looking at it) - no discussion though.

Without opening a can of worms I personality regard GTR (Southern, Thameslink, Great Northern, Gatwick Express) as all the same train company.

 

[matt_world2004]

I hope southern RPIs are trained in the different ticket validities of London Overground and that they do not prosecute/pf people for using a valid ticket on the overground.The signs at peckham rye advising customers that freedom passes are not valid from this station before 9:30 makes me think otherwise though.

 

[tsr]

Totally wrong that OBS are being trained at Authorised Collectors. That could end up messy given they are lone workers.

I won't be going into great detail, but I do not believe there are any plans for OBSs to issue PFs whilst working alone... quite the opposite!

There are, however, precedents for lone-working employees to do PFs. I believe various Chiltern, EMT and DLR staff are able to do this at their discretion.

I hope southern RPIs are trained in the different ticket validities of London Overground and that they do not prosecute/pf people for using a valid ticket on the overground.The signs at peckham rye advising customers that freedom passes are not valid from this station before 9:30 makes me think otherwise though.

I can't comment on the exact specifications of the training for PFs.

I would reiterate that there are, however, no Southern RPIs, though ex-RPIs (now OBSs) based in the London area are bound to know this.

As for the others, Freedom Pass information is regularly re-briefed to staff at GTR.

 

[gray1404]

I won't be going into great detail, but I do not believe there are any plans for OBSs to issue PFs whilst working alone... quite the opposite!

There are, however, precedents for lone-working employees to do PFs. I believe various Chiltern, EMT and DLR staff are able to do this at their discretion.

If they think the customer is soft or if unlikely to put up a fight. Looking for easy targets.

 

[causton]

If they think the customer is soft or if unlikely to put up a fight. Looking for easy targets.

Because the alternative has no benefit. If they can't pay, won't pay, address doesn't check out, either call the BTP and wait an hour for them to say there is nothing they can do, or let them go, or send them back towards where they came from

 

[farleigh]

From the gist of the thread, is the best tactic if I am travelling without a ticket is to refuse to co-operate with any RPI or similar. Is this correct?

 

[Haywain]

Only if you are really keen on meeting with the police and getting charged with a more serious offence than you started by committing.

 

[Hadders]

From the gist of the thread, is the best tactic if I am travelling without a ticket is to refuse to co-operate with any RPI or similar. Is this correct?

The best tactic is to travel with a ticket valid for your journey.

 

[farleigh]

Yes - I did not mean to be flippant but it sounds from earlier comments that sometimes more truculent people just walk away whereas people who co-operate end up having their case put forward for possible prosecution. If the BTP do not come, then the guard or RPI seems to be in an impossible position?

 

[Haywain]

Maybe, but people are often surprised to find off-duty police travelling (especially around London) and offering assistance to rail staff in such situations. It's a lottery and the odds of winning are longer than many assume.

 

[matt_world2004]

The best tactic is to travel with a ticket valid for your journey.

Unless you are travelling on some TOCs that do not recognise valid tickets

 

[bb21]

Unless you are travelling on some TOCs that do not recognise valid tickets

Whom?

 

[matt_world2004]

Whom?

The several cases posted in disputes and prosecutions where a person has been reported/sold a new ticket when they hold a valid ticket, such examples include

Splitting travelcards on gat ex.
Southern only tickets on Gat ex.
Southend stations to zone 1-6 on C2C

 

[Muzer]

Hell, I had various CrossCountry guards tell me off for using a "Via London" ticket and then refusing to issue the (zero-fare) excess to which I was entitled (according to the Conditions of Travel).

 

[gray1404]

I've had Northern guards tell me that you cannot break your journey overnight using the return portion of both Off Peak and Anytime Returns. I have been told that although the return is valid for a month, once you start your return the journey must be finished that same day. I have also had them cross out the valid until date.

I have had TPE try to charge me for a new ticket when I was using a combination of a concessionary travel pass and an Off Peak Day Return because the train did not stop at the station at which I chance from one ticket to another. This is post the new National Rail Conditions of Travel.

I also have had Southern tickets refused on Gatwick Express and Thameslink tickets refused on both Southern and Gatwick Express. This includes having being unlawfully detained at the gateline at London Victoria having alighted from a GX service until I "paid a supplement" - which rightfully I refused to pay. They let me through in the end.

 

[pitdiver]

In response to the comments regarding lone workers issuing penalty fares. i used to be a Multi Functional Station Supervisor working on the Metropolitan line of the London Underground. We were trained to issue PFs but from a place of safety. In my case the booking office window. So after stopping someone at the barrier. (pre gates) I asked them to go to the ticket window. I then made my way to the door to the B/O. Guess what, by the time i got to the window the person had left the station. In our case PFs didn't work.