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London Bridge : Train hit buffers 13/12/24

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LowLevel

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Are there any TOCs that actually turn down rest day volunteers for fatigue reasons (assuming not breaching Hidden)?
Yes. My own TOC has an algorithm built into CrewPlan that takes into account things like individual commuting time as well as shift factors and it will refuse to roster the staff member if it exceeds the fatigue index. If excessive spare movement occurs it can even trip without doing overtime and it requires 2 consecutive rest days to reset the fatigue index of the staff member to zero.

If you fail the fatigue index and can't be rostered you'll be booked off with pay no questions asked, or your offer to work your rest day will be turned down.
 
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NSEWonderer

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Can we resolve the mountain of speculation at the first pages of the thread. Why was it necessary for the driver to be arrested?

Also, is it likely the driver is still driving for Southern today?
Probably was detained by police rather than arrested, drug and Alcohol tested and then let go of when it came clear. Sensationalism may have blown it up more than what it was. I assume they'd be more on edge about these things, more so after the London Overground driver that ended up taking a train through the station buffers at Enfield, on Coke.
 
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akm

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Can we resolve the mountain of speculation at the first pages of the thread. Why was it necessary for the driver to be arrested?
I have the same question, and this:
The fact that the driver appears to have had a fatigue-induced microsleep would explain why he was initially arrested.
doesn't clear anything up for me. He was arrested for what, deliberately falling asleep??
 

PLY2AYS

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Yes. My own TOC has an algorithm built into CrewPlan that takes into account things like individual commuting time as well as shift factors and it will refuse to roster the staff member if it exceeds the fatigue index. If excessive spare movement occurs it can even trip without doing overtime and it requires 2 consecutive rest days to reset the fatigue index of the staff member to zero.

If you fail the fatigue index and can't be rostered you'll be booked off with pay no questions asked, or your offer to work your rest day will be turned down.
This sounds extremely proactive from a TOC and a much more comprehensive and constructive policy compared to my anecdotal experience in the industry.

Everyone in the driving grade faces fatigue in some form, and this has restored my faith somewhat in the governance/implementation of policy around fatigue… hopefully similar terms and conditions spread and are adopted elsewhere!
 

NSEWonderer

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The arrest claims imo become more and more questionable when you see what half the media page titles are written as.
Screenshot_20251217_215356_Brave.jpg
Above shows a Google search of the discussed incident and the sensationalist media headlines.
 

RiverDon

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Probably was detained by police rather than arrested, drug and Alcohol tested and then let go of when it came clear.
Admittedly I'm more familiar with Scots Law but as I understand PACE (Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984) in England & Wales there is no legal power to 'detain'. You can be arrested and dearrested later but it is illegal for a police officer to 'detain' you pending investigations. If the BTP actually did this then the driver has a claim and needs to contact a solicitor ASAP.

Maybe another ex-job driver can confirm?
 

NSEWonderer

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Admittedly I'm more familiar with Scots Law but as I understand PACE (Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984) in England & Wales there is no legal power to 'detain'. You can be arrested and dearrested later but it is illegal for a police officer to 'detain' you pending investigations. If the BTP actually did this then the driver has a claim and needs to contact a solicitor ASAP.

Maybe another ex-job driver can confirm?
Depends of they were willingly detained.

If not then there very quirky "Endangering the safety of a person using the railway" would have been used as indeed as cause for arrest. But its quite rare for that to even have happened.
 

RiverDon

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I've seen probationers try this before and whenever it happens it needs to be stamped out because it is a total abuse of power. If you are considering preventing someone from walking away then the only legal option is to arrest them.
 

800301

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This sounds extremely proactive from a TOC and a much more comprehensive and constructive policy compared to my anecdotal experience in the industry.

Everyone in the driving grade faces fatigue in some form, and this has restored my faith somewhat in the governance/implementation of policy around fatigue… hopefully similar terms and conditions spread and are adopted elsewhere!

Indeed, proves that it can be done so should be implemented else where
 

physics34

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In an attempt to quash the speculation... the driver WAS arrested. The BTP were on site when the incident happened therefore took it upon themselves to get involved, and the driver in question is still employed by GTR.
 

357

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the driver in question is still employed by GTR.
Good.

Hopefully something will happen about BTP and their obsession with arresting railway staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Are there any TOCs that actually turn down rest day volunteers for fatigue reasons (assuming not breaching Hidden)?
I've worked for a TOC where management openly called drivers and shunters lazy for not doing RDW, and where Driver Managers would call people on their personal phones asking them to come in as it's more likely to get a positive response than an email.

We can't accuse drivers of working too much overtime until we stop the management pressuring them into doing it.
 

Merle Haggard

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This is not new. the driver of the local involved in the Wembley Central mishap 11.10.84 was - understandably - wandering around in a dazed state afterwards. A policeman approached him and, after he said certain words, arrested him.

This certainly changed attitudes of open-ness on the L.M..
 

MotCO

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We can't accuse drivers of working too much overtime until we stop the management pressuring them into doing it.
And that will presumably mean recruiting more drivers, and an acceptance by existing drivers that their earnings may reduce due to less overtime being available.
 

Harpo

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We can't accuse drivers of working too much overtime until we stop the management pressuring them into doing it.
Nobody should ever describe any member of staff of as ‘working too much overtime’.

Staff working overtime are covering jobs. Without them, something will be uncovered. The appearance of the ‘Martini Men’ has often got the railway open much faster in an emergency too.

Ever since Clapham/Hidden 35+ years ago, management of overtime/fatigue has been forcibly given to managers to control. They control T&Cs (e.g. Sundays), vacancies, recruitment, route knowledge, traction knowledge, etc.. Staff work, managers manage.
 

Tetchytyke

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I don't know if this is a red herring.
I'd say it's fairly loose wording, perhaps it should say 'were up to date at the time of the incident.'

As an aside, obviously there is some focus on GTR and their rostering, but there is an element of personal responsibility and almost anyone who works shifts will know that working essentially 27-28 days in a month is a very bad move. That is a lot of RDW to do
There has to be some self-awareness when volunteering for extra work, someone needs to be able to recognise when they are getting fatigued. They also need to work in a culture where they can acknowledge that they are fatigued and not face repercussions for it (N.B. I am not saying that GTR doesn't have such a culture).

But it seems that, in this case, the driver had done the RDW without issue, the incident occurred on one of his standard rostered days. It's a brave man who takes the extra money for RDW then admits fatigue for their normal shift. Taking the overtime money then being too tired for your normal shift looks bad no matter how supportive an employer you have, so you can see why someone would try and power through. I've done it when I was working shifts, I felt fine doing the overtime then hit a wall on the last couple of days of the following normal week. Sorting the Christmas mail isn't safety critical and so industrial quantities of Red Bull got me through it.

But, for me, this is where a duty of care kicks in. The RAIB report says that the ORR guidance specifically cautions that some staff will want to work every hour that God sends and to be aware of the consequences. Sometimes an employer really does have to say no before you get into a situation where the cumulative effect of RDW means you're too fatigued to do your normal shift.

It sounds like the TOC where @LowLevel works seem to have processes in place to recognise this. I suppose this is why RAIB made a point of stating that, in their opinion, GTR's processes fell below industry best practice. If nobody in the industry was taking these things into account then RAIB would have worded their recommendation as applying to all TOCs and FOCs.
Hopefully something will happen about BTP and their obsession with arresting railway staff.
This is not new. the driver of the local involved in the Wembley Central mishap 11.10.84 was - understandably - wandering around in a dazed state afterwards. A policeman approached him and, after he said certain words, arrested him.

This certainly changed attitudes of open-ness on the L.M..
It's a tough one. If you have a microsleep and crash your car then there's a pretty good chance that the police will arrest you for careless or dangerous driving. There only has to be a suspicion for them to arrest you. It doesn't mean they will charge you or that the CPS will prosecute you. It's hard to argue that train drivers shouldn't be held to the same standard.

But on the other hand, unless a drug or alcohol test comes back positive, it does seem like an overreaction to stick someone in handcuffs and march them off for an interview.

I think the lesson for everyone is that the police are not your friends and they are not there to help you.
 

michael74

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Sure, then maybe they should have permission to increase establishment from the DfT?

As an aside, obviously there is some focus on GTR and their rostering, but there is an element of personal responsibility and almost anyone who works shifts will know that working essentially 27-28 days in a month is a very bad move. That is a lot of RDW to do

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Backwards rotation is - unfortunately - very common for drivers. Work a late Saturday (finishing essentially Sunday morning) and back early Monday. 24h turnaround more or less. No good for anyone’s fatigue, but that doesn’t in itself lead to incidents.
We (Guards) in our depot have backwards rotations in our diagrams. Twice this year I have phoned resources in the early hours of the morning after 3 hours sleep and told them I am too fatigued to work that day.

I don't do any RDW and only my booked Sundays.
 

35B

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But, for me, this is where a duty of care kicks in. The RAIB report says that the ORR guidance specifically cautions that some staff will want to work every hour that God sends and to be aware of the consequences. Sometimes an employer really does have to say no before you get into a situation where the cumulative effect of RDW means you're too fatigued to do your normal shift.

It sounds like the TOC where @LowLevel works seem to have processes in place to recognise this. I suppose this is why RAIB made a point of stating that, in their opinion, GTR's processes fell below industry best practice. If nobody in the industry was taking these things into account then RAIB would have worded their recommendation as applying to all TOCs and FOCs.
Reading the report, what struck me was the sheer weakness of GTR's processes, and their corporate failure to stay up to date.
 

35B

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Absolutely not.

If that was the case, then it should be the same licensing authority and it be included on your DVLA competency.
I don’t see that link. But if I am driving a car at the time it drives into a solid obstacle, I can reasonably expect to be placed under arrest and held criminally accountable for what happened. I’m struggling to see why those responsible for the safety* of many hundreds aboard their trains should not be held to the same standard of accountability.

The precise rules may differ between modes - and as a car driver, I note that the impact of raising standards to the level required of train drivers would be a significant step up in the standards required.

* - I note that drivers and their representatives emphasise this level of responsibility in their advocacy for the significance and importance of drivers.
 

PLY2AYS

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I don’t see that link. But if I am driving a car at the time it drives into a solid obstacle, I can reasonably expect to be placed under arrest and held criminally accountable for what happened. I’m struggling to see why those responsible for the safety* of many hundreds aboard their trains should not be held to the same standard of accountability.

The precise rules may differ between modes - and as a car driver, I note that the impact of raising standards to the level required of train drivers would be a significant step up in the standards required.

* - I note that drivers and their representatives emphasise this level of responsibility in their advocacy for the significance and importance of drivers.
I think that’s a fair way to summarise it to be honest.

I know some drivers who are fighting the DVLA at the moment to rescind their medical exclusion from driving, a process which is taking years, who are currently being told by their respective TOCs that because the DVLA won’t let them drive due to their clerical processes, that they are also precluded from driving trains.

To blur the two standards will just increase this sort of situation from happening more and more in the future… which is obviously unacceptable.
 

Bryson

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My take on this is that the officers needed to perform alcohol drug tests and most likely they wanted a formal interview to determine what happened. In this case giving the caution would be the right thing to do to protect everyone. It doesn't mean that there was ever an intension to prosecute or detain beyond the time required for the tests and statement.
 

Harpo

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A slightly different take on police actions - If they are first on the scene, they can usefully instigate a more rapid chain of custody. But it’s only useful if they recognise the role of the railway industry as the lead investigator.
 

Merle Haggard

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It's a tough one. If you have a microsleep and crash your car then there's a pretty good chance that the police will arrest you for careless or dangerous driving. There only has to be a suspicion for them to arrest you. It doesn't mean they will charge you or that the CPS will prosecute you. It's hard to argue that train drivers shouldn't be held to the same standard.

But on the other hand, unless a drug or alcohol test comes back positive, it does seem like an overreaction to stick someone in handcuffs and march them off for an interview.

I think the lesson for everyone is that the police are not your friends and they are not there to help you.

The point I was trying it make was this (and I have worked on a Divisional Accidents Section, although long ago now); that the B.R. investigation was to find out what went wrong so that steps could be taken to prevent a re-occurrence. It was always clear that it was NOT to allocate or apportion blame. This meant that staff involved felt able to give full explanations; once there was the chance of being arrested for saying something everyone became, understandably, very tight-lipped. This of course meant that investigations were much more difficult, particularly after Wembley.
 

Tetchytyke

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The point I was trying it make was this (and I have worked on a Divisional Accidents Section, although long ago now); that the B.R. investigation was to find out what went wrong so that steps could be taken to prevent a re-occurrence. It was always clear that it was NOT to allocate or apportion blame. This meant that staff involved felt able to give full explanations; once there was the chance of being arrested for saying something everyone became, understandably, very tight-lipped.
Absolutely, and it does make investigations harder if people think what they say will be used against them later. It’s a tough one, we want people to feel safe to admit to errors so we can learn from it. But sometimes those errors will indicate something which might be at the criminal level of negligence, and we’d (generally) want the criminally negligent to be prosecuted.

It’s easy enough to manage where the error is an obvious criminal act, such as the Overground driver who had taken recreational drugs then crashed his train at Enfield. But when it’s less clear cut, such as with the two controversial prosecutions in Merseyside, I can imagine it is really hard to manage as an investigator. You can’t really get to the bottom of what happened unless someone is fully transparent, but they won’t be transparent if they think it’ll be used against them later.
 

RiverDon

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The ASLEF diary has on the inside cover this excellent advice for drivers after an incident:

Arrested? Interviewed by the police?
Basic advice as to what to do in the event of an accident in the railway in relation to which it might be suggested that the member was to blame:
1. The member should phone ASLEF's solicitors (details given)
2. If making a statement could possibly incriminate the member of a criminal offence the member should not provide a statement to the police, ORR or employer until legal advice has been received
3. The member should only speak to their employer in the presence of an ASLEF official or representative

Should a member be cautioned at the scene of an incident, the member should decline to comment until they have had the opportunity to receive legal advice. This will include declining to comment upon arrest before legal advice has been received.

Sorry can't get it all in one quote with this, every time I press enter it starts a new quote.
 
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Deepgreen

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Nobody should ever describe any member of staff of as ‘working too much overtime’.

Staff working overtime are covering jobs. Without them, something will be uncovered. The appearance of the ‘Martini Men’ has often got the railway open much faster in an emergency too.

Ever since Clapham/Hidden 35+ years ago, management of overtime/fatigue has been forcibly given to managers to control. They control T&Cs (e.g. Sundays), vacancies, recruitment, route knowledge, traction knowledge, etc.. Staff work, managers manage.
I disagree - some overtime may be a part of keeping the railway running, but too much, by definition, is unhelpful, hence the restrictions that are/should be in place to prevent/minimise this sort of thing.
 

35B

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I think that’s a fair way to summarise it to be honest.

I know some drivers who are fighting the DVLA at the moment to rescind their medical exclusion from driving, a process which is taking years, who are currently being told by their respective TOCs that because the DVLA won’t let them drive due to their clerical processes, that they are also precluded from driving trains.

To blur the two standards will just increase this sort of situation from happening more and more in the future… which is obviously unacceptable.
I must admit to being surprised that any medical conditions enough to cause DVLA to withhold a license would still allow train driving. That said, I know someone who's got to the stage of involving his MP over DVLA's review of the medical suspension of his licence, so I can see how DVLA could have an impact here.
 

PLY2AYS

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I must admit to being surprised that any medical conditions enough to cause DVLA to withhold a license would still allow train driving. That said, I know someone who's got to the stage of involving his MP over DVLA's review of the medical suspension of his licence, so I can see how DVLA could have an impact here.
You’re probably right, but I’m not a medical professional, so couldn’t speculate with any degree of accuracy.
But the standards are different, often more restrictive, blood alcohol limits for an example off the top of my head.

I’m sure in the instances both you and I alluded to, it is more to do with the administrative/clerical/process of review from the DVLA.

But this isn’t an egalitarian policy, since owning a DVLA driving licence doesn’t preclude you from driving a train. So this medical standard doesn’t apply to all drivers, given that some may not possess a DVLA licence at all, so therefore it isn’t a fair ruling.
 

Harpo

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I disagree - some overtime may be a part of keeping the railway running, but too much, by definition, is unhelpful, hence the restrictions that are/should be in place to prevent/minimise this sort of thing.
We may be violently agreeing. My point is that if anyone is working hours that create fatigue, then that’s a management failure.
 
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