Fair enough, thanks for the correction / extra info! I assumed it was stopping at the upper level of the building as it seems to spend a lot of time parked about halfway up its shaft...
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London Bridge reconstruction works
- Thread starter acepepper
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Fair enough, thanks for the correction / extra info! I assumed it was stopping at the upper level of the building as it seems to spend a lot of time parked about halfway up its shaft...
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swt_passenger
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Observed on the latest time lapse video from James Nelson that ballast was being levelled in the 'trough' for the P1 and P2 tracks on Friday 10th...
https://youtu.be/OqJwN-uvt7E
https://youtu.be/OqJwN-uvt7E
Further to that - it appears one track (or maybe both - angles are hard) was laid over the weekend!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEZ72jde94M
They are quick!
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swt_passenger
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I'm thinking there won't be a lot to see from that view in another few weeks maybe?
The chap who's putting those time lapses up is doing a very useful service isn't he...
Yeah agreed, when the Platform 1 roof goes up there's not gonna be a lot to see from that angle. Pretty interesting while it's lasted though.
Fair enough, thanks for the correction / extra info! I assumed it was stopping at the upper level of the building as it seems to spend a lot of time parked about halfway up its shaft...
It also stops at the control offices too.
tsr
Established Member
Just to clarify this completely, it has 3 levels - Platforms, Station Accommodation Block Mezzanine (for station staff) and Ground (for the train crew facilities). The train crew messroom has other means of access from the wider world, and it's unlikely the lift would have been made into a staff-only facility specifically for train crew, who should be perfectly able to use the other entrances/exits; indeed, the access to the lift very much feels like a back entrance. Rather, I suggest it is part of the accessibility requirements for staff involved in activities such as station administration, as they could conceivably have special requirements for which they need a lift to access the Mezzanine level.
The security guards manning the lift are not going to be there permanently, once new systems are installed and tested. Of course, it would be patently absurd to have the station designed in such a way that it requires a security guard to sit in a plastic chair outside a lift on a 24/7 basis, in order to deter confused passengers.
Quite a few do, but bearing in mind the lift is quite quick and that you have to be in exactly the right places at the right times to spot people using it, you may well not have seen them yet. As I said above, there is also other messroom access, which some crew may find rather more convenient, depending on the choice of platforms being used.
It would be nice to have it modified and open to the public, but I can't say I've heard of any plans. You'd also have to take into account that even if the doors on the "staff" side of the lift were operated by security passes, they would still be pretty large doors, through which a member of the public could easily follow a member of staff, and end up entirely in the wrong area of the station.
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Just because train drivers who are on track have to be medically fit doesn't mean you don't need step-free access to the crew room.
There are members of the management grades who are disabled, drivers may be off track due to injuries or illnesses that limit mobility, and that's not to mention the non-safety-critical OBS role that has no published medical standards.
All the other access points from concourse level have at least one step, as I recall. (Though it's been a while so I might be missing something in recollection.)
I think it wouldn't be such a big risk to have both a public and private door on that lift. Each level has a lift lobby with access control to exit. The only way you could go without a pass or code is right back on the lift.
There are members of the management grades who are disabled, drivers may be off track due to injuries or illnesses that limit mobility, and that's not to mention the non-safety-critical OBS role that has no published medical standards.
All the other access points from concourse level have at least one step, as I recall. (Though it's been a while so I might be missing something in recollection.)
I think it wouldn't be such a big risk to have both a public and private door on that lift. Each level has a lift lobby with access control to exit. The only way you could go without a pass or code is right back on the lift.
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I have seen someone who appeared to be a member of train crew use the lift. Once the security guard goes will train crew be ensuring the person in the lift with them is entitled to be there?
Semi-related to the lift is the large platform display indicator at the lower level which is above where the lift would emerge on to the public concourse. The issue is that people waiting for platforms congregate so they can see the board, but at the back so there are near the escalator/stairs to the platform. This blocks access to the stairs and escalators for those that want to up them. So my suggestion is to move the display board so it is over the bottom of the stairs. People have to stand back from it to read it which automatically means the stairs and escalator are kept clear and means the staff trying to keep the area clear can instead concentrate on helping passengers.
Semi-related to the lift is the large platform display indicator at the lower level which is above where the lift would emerge on to the public concourse. The issue is that people waiting for platforms congregate so they can see the board, but at the back so there are near the escalator/stairs to the platform. This blocks access to the stairs and escalators for those that want to up them. So my suggestion is to move the display board so it is over the bottom of the stairs. People have to stand back from it to read it which automatically means the stairs and escalator are kept clear and means the staff trying to keep the area clear can instead concentrate on helping passengers.
Excellent point - I totally didn't think of people on the upper level of the control building who might have mobility issues or need step free access. So it's clear a lift to that level is needed.
I'm still surprised this lift is where it is and that it seemingly changed from being a passenger lift to a staff lift at some point after the planning application, and that as you say, why not have a system where there'd be badge control on the lift door and badge control on a lobby door if a passenger did accidentally get off. Equally you'd think there could be a lift inside the control building just from level 0 to level 1 to cover this need.
Which brings me to:
Yup. You have to pass through the gates and take the public side lift down to the concourse if this one wasn't working / was busy.
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Overall I'm really disappointed by the new London Bridge station, while yes it's very impressive engineering there just seem to be so many things which could have been designed better, or have just been badly done.
The design itself seems odd. In the past the high level platforms felt like an afterthought, with terrible access via the long ramps or the grotty overbridge, with the southern side having a proper concourse. Now it feels the other way around. The high level platforms have four escalators and a lift for each island platform, with a wide (but very long) staircase too. The low level has a strange
arrangement of 2 island platforms and 2 single platforms, with the 2 island platforms (10 and 15) being far too narrow. In the peaks staff routinely have to use barriers for crowd control and allow trains to unload before allowing people on the platform. The sheep pen in front of platform 15 may have finally gone, but even with all the hoardings gone it's really not much better.
The access to the lower concourse from the high level platforms is very poor, single escalators always running up (understandably), and a single lift for 6 platforms.
The staff only lift with the security guard to prevent non-staff using it is frankly ridiculous.
I wonder if it would have been possible to arrange the 6 low level platforms as 3 sets of island platforms, which would have reduced the narrow platform problem a bit, although perhaps the signal box at the end of platform 15 would prevent that. Although having said that, the publicity said that while platform 15 was only 10 carriages long, there was provision for it to be lengthened if the signal box was ever moved. When spending billions on the project why not move it as part of the work? It seems to be the only thing from the old station that's been retained.
The space lost at platform level by having the full length of the escalators uncovered doesn't help either. I imagine this was to increase the natural light on the lower concourse but the lower concourse is so big that most of the lighting there is artificial anyway, and the ceilings so high that it being more closed wouldn't automatically turn it into anything like Birmingham New Street.
The location of the ticket office isn't obvious whichever entrance you come in by, and the lack of any ticket office or even machines on the bus station concourse for platforms 10-15 is crazy. There are temporary machines where
the entrance for the old platforms 1-6 was, but this is another really unclear location - there's no reason for passengers to walk down there any more. Why couldn't a few machines be placed on the concourse?
There is however good provision of payphones - I don't think I've ever seen one used, unsurprisingly these days.
The ticket barrier and departure board positioning is odd. The staggered barrier line on 10-15 is a relic of an emergency change after the severe overcrowding problems when they first opened, and is just strange now. I don't see how it could be changed now though - the shops on the right take up too much concourse space. The lower concourse departure boards for 10-15 mean people stand in front of the escalators up blocking access to them. It's awkward at the best of times but with a minor amount of disruption it becomes chaotic, with people turning when their train is announced into the other facing the other way.
Then there's the detail of the actual work on top of the design. There's lots of things unfinished (I know the station itself is unfinished but these are things in the completed part, with no sign of anyone ever coming to finish them off). Things like incomplete wood panelling, trim incomplete or falling off around escalators etc - many of the escalator panels have pieces of foam or gaffer tape inbetween them.
Things that were needed for day to day operation were clearly not in the design, for example there are storage places for wheelchair ramps in the platform structures but these have since been added to with makeshift looking ones at other places on the platforms, usually with hazard warning tape around them. For a brand new station there's a remarkable amount of warning tape around the place.
As a rare positive point though, the next train display boards showing the next 3 trains are an excellent design.
Phew. That was longer than I expected!
In short, it feels like it could have been a fantastic station, but really just isn't and is big and impressive yet also very mediocre.
The design itself seems odd. In the past the high level platforms felt like an afterthought, with terrible access via the long ramps or the grotty overbridge, with the southern side having a proper concourse. Now it feels the other way around. The high level platforms have four escalators and a lift for each island platform, with a wide (but very long) staircase too. The low level has a strange
arrangement of 2 island platforms and 2 single platforms, with the 2 island platforms (10 and 15) being far too narrow. In the peaks staff routinely have to use barriers for crowd control and allow trains to unload before allowing people on the platform. The sheep pen in front of platform 15 may have finally gone, but even with all the hoardings gone it's really not much better.
The access to the lower concourse from the high level platforms is very poor, single escalators always running up (understandably), and a single lift for 6 platforms.
The staff only lift with the security guard to prevent non-staff using it is frankly ridiculous.
I wonder if it would have been possible to arrange the 6 low level platforms as 3 sets of island platforms, which would have reduced the narrow platform problem a bit, although perhaps the signal box at the end of platform 15 would prevent that. Although having said that, the publicity said that while platform 15 was only 10 carriages long, there was provision for it to be lengthened if the signal box was ever moved. When spending billions on the project why not move it as part of the work? It seems to be the only thing from the old station that's been retained.
The space lost at platform level by having the full length of the escalators uncovered doesn't help either. I imagine this was to increase the natural light on the lower concourse but the lower concourse is so big that most of the lighting there is artificial anyway, and the ceilings so high that it being more closed wouldn't automatically turn it into anything like Birmingham New Street.
The location of the ticket office isn't obvious whichever entrance you come in by, and the lack of any ticket office or even machines on the bus station concourse for platforms 10-15 is crazy. There are temporary machines where
the entrance for the old platforms 1-6 was, but this is another really unclear location - there's no reason for passengers to walk down there any more. Why couldn't a few machines be placed on the concourse?
There is however good provision of payphones - I don't think I've ever seen one used, unsurprisingly these days.
The ticket barrier and departure board positioning is odd. The staggered barrier line on 10-15 is a relic of an emergency change after the severe overcrowding problems when they first opened, and is just strange now. I don't see how it could be changed now though - the shops on the right take up too much concourse space. The lower concourse departure boards for 10-15 mean people stand in front of the escalators up blocking access to them. It's awkward at the best of times but with a minor amount of disruption it becomes chaotic, with people turning when their train is announced into the other facing the other way.
Then there's the detail of the actual work on top of the design. There's lots of things unfinished (I know the station itself is unfinished but these are things in the completed part, with no sign of anyone ever coming to finish them off). Things like incomplete wood panelling, trim incomplete or falling off around escalators etc - many of the escalator panels have pieces of foam or gaffer tape inbetween them.
Things that were needed for day to day operation were clearly not in the design, for example there are storage places for wheelchair ramps in the platform structures but these have since been added to with makeshift looking ones at other places on the platforms, usually with hazard warning tape around them. For a brand new station there's a remarkable amount of warning tape around the place.
As a rare positive point though, the next train display boards showing the next 3 trains are an excellent design.
Phew. That was longer than I expected!
In short, it feels like it could have been a fantastic station, but really just isn't and is big and impressive yet also very mediocre.
I also think the absence of the Kent departures from the 10-15 departure boards in any form at all is unhelpful if you're not familiar with the layout of the station. If you approached on foot and walk into the ground floor concourse, you'd have no idea how to get a train to any of the other destinations. Mind you this was the case before the rebuild too, when I turned up as London novice nearly a decade ago it took me ages to work out how to get to Greenwich! Victoria have a brief summary of the other platforms on the left of the departures I think - that's all that is needed.
I'm also surprised quite how cold it is in the new low level concourse. I'd presumed the reason the new platforms weren't completely covered is because they ultimately expect the majority of people to wait downstairs, however it seems really cold down there during the winter - much more so than the likes of Kings Cross.
I'm also surprised quite how cold it is in the new low level concourse. I'd presumed the reason the new platforms weren't completely covered is because they ultimately expect the majority of people to wait downstairs, however it seems really cold down there during the winter - much more so than the likes of Kings Cross.
YorkshireBear
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Its not yet finished is it?
Certainly seems possible, however I think it would have prevented the progressive west to east rebuild of the terminal platforms where only two were ever closed at once. Quite a lot of the design choices in the new station were influenced by the need to progressively rebuild, for example the individual roof canopies instead of one large new trainshed.
I agree on that point.
The staggered part of the gateline will be going completely once the station is finished, at least in the original plans. Once the Tooley St entrance is open and the full new Western Arcade route is there to get to the tube, I think the expectation is that everyone will go down to the concourse except people wanting to get a bus or taxi (or work in the Shard/LBQ).
There is a staff booth (or 'bothy') on each platform island for equipment and teapots. The one on P15 for some reason isn't being used yet, the temporary buildings are still there. There is a fair bit to finish off and trims will be finished and the warning tape will go.... in time. I hope!
I think you just have to keep in mind, the design of the rebuild allowed the station to stay open throughout 2013-2018 - on that I think they've done a decent job, but you're right, it does have its compromises.
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Blindtraveler
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I would assume that some time in the next 9 months or so the contractor will start snagging and bits of phome, wonky trims and bits and all that jaz will be smoothed over and fixed? Great to see light at the end of the, ur, platform???shame about low level platform width issues though, any fixes for this?
They've been snagging the whole time, it just seems like whenever something gets added to the list the parts have to be special-ordered from China via the slow boat with a ridiculously long lead time.
Blindtraveler
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If thats the case one wonders how much of a saving these cheep chinese shopping centre escalaters actually are over something a bit more local where extra or replacement bits could be delivered by a fast man in a van?
coppercapped
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Eh? Chinese? The escalators I have seen are labelled 'Kone' - which is a company based in Helsinki, Finland.
Blindtraveler
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I stand corrected, good to see NR have bought something decent.
Still nowhere near TfL standards though, you can feel that when you're standing on them, far more vibration and juddering than you get on the tube ones.
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Blindtraveler
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TFL/LU machines, whilst custom designed/built and no doubt expensive are just the business IMO. Really good kit. NR would no doubt go a nasty shade of green at the price tag though.
coppercapped
Established Member
Assuming that your observations are correct and true for all escalators, those on the Tube are fixed into inclined tunnels. Above ground ones in NR stations tend to be supported only at the ends; they are also a lot longer than those found in the average department store.
If you're unhappy - contact NR directly.
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Blindtraveler
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How has reliability of these ones been?
Edinburgh are still struggling with the 3 banks of junk installed during the upgrade of Waverley steps.
Edinburgh are still struggling with the 3 banks of junk installed during the upgrade of Waverley steps.
Not unhappy, just an observation, although I might get unhappy if we see lots of breakdowns, particularly with the London Bridge where for the low level platforms, the single escalator being out of service is going to cause problems/confusion for those with mobility issues given the paucity of lifts (as previously discussed in this thread).
I guess we'll know after a year or so in service how they hold up.
I think this may have been covered but I can't find it on this long thread, so apologies in advance.
When do the peak time trains terminating/starting at South Bermondsey on the Peckham Rye route get extended back to London Bridge?
i.e. so that peak services are every ten minutes rather than the variable ten/twenty minute gap at present?
When do the peak time trains terminating/starting at South Bermondsey on the Peckham Rye route get extended back to London Bridge?
i.e. so that peak services are every ten minutes rather than the variable ten/twenty minute gap at present?
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