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London Bridge reconstruction works
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Aside from the other replies, what would be the benefit even if you could plausibly do it? If Waterloo (East) had two island platforms, then the benefit to passengers would be obvious: All trains in each direction would depart from the same island, so it would be easier for passengers to decide which platform to go to. But that isn't the arrangement at Waterloo (East). With the actual current platform arrangement, even if you did have an u/u/d/d system, the middle island would still serve both up and down trains, so things wouldn't be any easier for passengers.
You could argue that u/u/d/d removes the conflicting move between Waterloo and London Bridge, but in practice that wouldn't be fewer conflicting moves: It would just be shifting the conflicts so that they all occur between Waterloo and Charing Cross, instead of some of them east of Waterloo. So again - as far as I can see - no benefit.
Less than no benefit in fact. From a timetable perspective, one plans (on the current arrangement) a train to come off the Slow Lines at Ewer Street (where 4 tracks become 2) at the same time as one goes onto them (and the same to /from the Fast Lines). This means trains are pathed Slow/Fast/Slow/Fast alternately every 2 minutes with no delays to account for the junction as te timetable is planned around parallel working in the peaks at Ewer Street.
This presents trains to each half of Charing Cross Slows into 1-3, Fasts into 4-6) at 4 minute intervals, giving space for a conflicting departure to take place between each pair of inward arrivals on each half of the throat - meaning that crossing moves are not an issue in the throat.
With an u/u/d/d arrangement, every other arrival would have to be held back by 2 minutes on approach to Charing Cross to give the necedsary 4 minutes spacing for a conflicting departure - extending journey times to give the same level of service as u/u/d/d would.
U/u/d/d would also be challenging given the structure of the bridge over the Thames on the approach to Charing X.
swt_passenger
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Saw your question the other day but didn't have access to my PC at the time. The planning drawings I've downloaded show the P4/5 island is identical in width to the other three islands along the main part of the length, i.e. where the lifts and escalators are. P4/5 is a bit narrower at the very furthest country end, similar to P2/3, but is actually wider ('squarer') than the other three at the London end.
I've attached a screenshot from the planning application that shows what you mean
They do indeed look about the same width.
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I've attached a screenshot from the planning application that shows what you mean
They do indeed look about the same width.
Looking at that diagram, I can't help noticing the differences in lengths in the through platforms. Platform 1 appears to be considerably longer than platforms 2/3, which seems odd as all those platforms will serve the same trains (the Cannon Street ones). Anyone know the thinking there? Then platforms 4/5 are slightly longer than 2/3 (are Thameslink trains expected to be longer than SouthEastern ones?), while the four CHX platforms look (roughly) the same length as 2/3, which would make sense.
Length issues will largely be down to where it is possible to locate emergency escape stairs given what is underneath. Min length is effectively 12.5 cars but P1 ends up being longer because of the positioning of the stairs at the platform ends.
(Bermondsey street isn't perpendicular to tracks hence some stairs are east and some west of Bermondsey Street at the Country end and similarly the Cotton centre walkway and escalators down to the tube at the CHX/CST end create stair positioning issues)
Yeah, that is misleading not only because of the curve, but also because the very eastern part of the platform won't even be used, as hwl says it's really only there to get to the escape stairway.
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About time. But realistically best to leave till the rest of 15 was fully completed.
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I agree. The one I seem to hear the most (way too frequently) is something to the effect of "Please use the lifts instead of escalators to reach the platforms ... ... ... if you have heavy or bulky luggage."
And they play it every minute or two. It's rubbish.
Arriving most mornings from Waterloo East, just before the cut off after which no ex-Charing Cross trains stop, I've noticed the up/down direction of the P8/9 escalators seems random. On a couple of occasions both escalators have been travelling in the same direction. Not sure if this is an experiment to find the most efficient configuration, or really is just someone randomly picking at the start of each day!
An annoying feature of the platform displays, noticeable when waiting for a service back to Waterloo East in the afternoon, is that when the next train is showing a non-stopping service, the second and third train displays go blank, so you have no idea if they are delayed or cancelled until the first train has passed.
An annoying feature of the platform displays, noticeable when waiting for a service back to Waterloo East in the afternoon, is that when the next train is showing a non-stopping service, the second and third train displays go blank, so you have no idea if they are delayed or cancelled until the first train has passed.
wastedlife
Member
That's what websites like Real Time Trains are useful for. Southeastern's information displays have been absolutely useless, displaying blatantly incorrect information, for as long as I can remember.
On another note, has anyone else noticed the guy at the Tooley St pedestrian crossing by the Galleria doing an impression of a Womble in the evening? "Underground (points right) Overground (points left".
There's going to be 130* trains passing through during peak hour once Thameslink starts so look forward to this announcement every 25 seconds.
(* 28 CHX up, ~14 CHX dn, 22 CST up, ~16 CST dn, 16 Thameslink up, 16 Thameslink down, 20 Southern out)
IanKR
Member
One thing I've noticed about RTT is that when an incoming train to CHX arrives at a different platform than was planned (so the new platform number shows in red), the platform number of the corresponding outgoing service doesn't update (and go red) until some time later, usually just before the outgoing service leaves. I'd assume that being "Realtime" it would update simultaneously?
I've also noticed that recently SE's Live Trains site doesn't always provide platform numbers at CHX.
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It is real time, based on the signaller inputting the train's headcode into the panel. It seems like sometimes they wait until they're ready to clear the signals before they do that.
yep, awful...actually played about 6 times in a row the other day. Nobody listens to them they just blend it to the background...
swt_passenger
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That second shot of the three is interesting, because it shows an area not often seen. Presumably there's some fairly major work going on to the various viaduct sections that are under cover at the moment.
The side of the new Borough viaduct and its soundproofing barrier is just visible alongside the second carriage of that EMU, that is where the down Charing Cross loop towards platform 6 will presumably appear from in due course. So there'll need to be four tracks in the foreground, two for Cannon St and two for Thameslink, with the former pair gaining another line through the platforms.
I wonder if that odd looking cable gantry (right foreground) that IIRC took power supplies over and above one track will still be there in the final state?
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carriageline
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Majority of the head codes are put in long before the train has even arrived, sometimes as far back as Spa Road/NX. Hither Green is my record
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IanKR
Member
Thanks
The travelling Leicester City fans demonstrated the acoustics of the new concourse earlier, they were in full voice queueing for trains down to The Den (South Bermondsey) at about 14:30.
Could hear them all the way from the west end of Tooley Street!
Could hear them all the way from the west end of Tooley Street!
Blindtraveler
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Is he sitting there to rescue trapped pax? Or stop them using it? Or this one of the lifts still unfinished?
It's weird, I have no idea why they've done this. They seem to have made a late decision to change the lift on P11/12 from passenger use to staff use only, as it's shown as a passenger lift on the planning application. The shaft goes all the way down to concourse level but currently is only set up to only stop at the upper floor of the staff building. At concourse level there's just frosted glass where the doors would be.
It seems totally out of place to have a huge accessible lift with 'Staff Only' above it, surely if they were really concerned about drivers getting to the break rooms quickly, they could have installed another set of stairs like on 13/14 (which aren't shown on the planning application btw), or surely there'd be a system available where a driver could use a key or contactless badge to let the lift make a special stop at the staff only floor, like countless other systems found the world over in offices and apartment buildings. Right now though, there is apparently no lock at all on the lift, electronic or manual, so they have a staff members sat outside on a chair all day in shifts.
Does anyone know why this change happened? I have never actually seen a driver (or any other staff) using the staff lift.
I did wonder if it might be a temporary arrangement and this lift might get switched to being a passenger lift when they've finished the additional lifts down to the Western Concourse from the 'services spine', but who knows. The lift car that's been installed in the shaft only has front doors, whereas the concourse level would need doors on both sides, so they'd have to fix that. I'd put my money on it being some driver H&S request from Southern that the station was forced to make.
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The lift opens at concourse level but the exit doors are on the staff side inside a hallway. You're right that it seems odd not to have doors on both sides with the staff-side doors operated by key code or card.
Also I doubt it was built that way for the drivers, seeing as they were banned from using it due to the risk of getting trapped which could delay trains. I'm told the union had to intervene and get a higher-up manager to overrule the local manager on that one.
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