London Bridge reconstruction works

[ijmad]

Where does the lower concourse exit to? By the bustop on Tooley Street?

Almost exactly behind what is currently 84 Tooley Street (+ a little bit more), which will be demolished later this year after the Cannon Street lines are safety out of the way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where does the lower concourse exit to? By the bustop on Tooley Street?

Here's an extract from the planning drawings, there are effectively two entrances at each end of the lower concourse, IMHO they'll operate as main and secondary.
I've marked them with 1,2 and 3,4 respectively.

This is because the west side of the concourse is the main north/south public access parallel to the main gateline and including Stainer St, with the undercroft passage towards LU about half way along. The two east side entrances only give access nearly directly to the paid area through smaller gatelines, so will be of more use to people who know exactly where they are going.

 

[Stew998]

How many of the people who walk across London Bridge are Southeastern passengers out of interest? I'd have thought many of them would board CST services and terminate in the City itself, as I do.

Not if you work in the Eastern side of the city; it's quicker to walk over the bridge than change onto a train to CST which doesn't get you much closer.

Presumably the ramps from the existing through platforms will be retained allowing easy access to the upper level and the footbridge across Tooley Street?

I snapped the attached from Network Rail's redevelopment leaflet, this shows the new entrances and escalators quite clearly I think (although not the existing ramps mentioned above...)

 

[hwl]

Presumably the ramps from the existing through platforms will be retained allowing easy access to the upper level and the footbridge across Tooley Street?

No, all through platform access at Street level.

Most ramps are in the wrong place (will have track over the top) but new fire escapes at the city end of the platforms will exit on to that passage way instead. (All platfoms including terminating also have fire escapes at the country end). the passage way will be unticketed in the future.

 

[ijmad]

No, all through platform access at Street level.

Most ramps are in the wrong place (will have track over the top) but new fire escapes at the city end of the platforms will exit on to that passage way instead. (All platfoms including terminating also have fire escapes at the country end). the passage way will be unticketed in the future.

So is that what the staircases at the ends of the through platforms are? Fire escapes (and staff access at the country end?)

 

[IanKR]

Reason we are swapping the platforms as you say, is to mainly use the up loop, and stop rust forming as nothing is 'booked' there.

By up loop, do you mean Platform 9?

 

[carriageline]

By up loop, do you mean Platform 9?

Yep, the line through platform 9 is called the Up Passenger Loop still.

 

[hwl]

So is that what the staircases at the ends of the through platforms are? Fire escapes (and staff access at the country end?)

Both ends are fire escapes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Both ends are fire escapes.

In support of your earlier description I've attached part of the 'terminating level' drawing that shows the locations of the lower ends of the 5 London end fire escapes. As you can see they provide exits to the 'Western Parade' but only via various passageways within the undercroft, and presumably via alarmed emergency doors at the final exits, it looks like none of them would have been suitable for permanent passenger circulation routes. I've highlighted the escape for P1 as an example.

Not shown, but the country end fire escapes lead to various underground rabbit warrens, especially those of the new terminating platforms, the latter are all connected below the tracks and lead to a combined exit.

 

[ijmad]

Not shown, but the country end fire escapes lead to various underground rabbit warrens, especially those of the new terminating platforms, the latter are all connected below the tracks and lead to a combined exit.

Out of interest do you have a link to the full document where the caps you've posted come from?

 

[swt_passenger]

Out of interest do you have a link to the full document where the caps you've posted come from?

They are all individual drawing files on the Southwark planning website. I've never found it possible to link to them directly because URLs time out, so you'll have to enter the planning website and use 'application search' by reference number: 11/AP/1987.

The one that comes up with these details is the original main application:
Ref. No: 11/AP/1987 | Received: Mon 27 Jun 2011 | Validated: Wed 06 Jul 2011 | Status: Application Decided

There are however dozens of other separate applications concerning further details of the rebuild.

 

[ijmad]

They are all individual drawing files on the Southwark planning website. I've never found it possible to link to them directly because URLs time out, so you'll have to enter the planning website and use 'application search' by reference number: 11/AP/1987.

The one that comes up with these details is the original main application:
Ref. No: 11/AP/1987 | Received: Mon 27 Jun 2011 | Validated: Wed 06 Jul 2011 | Status: Application Decided

There are however dozens of other separate applications concerning further details of the rebuild.

Thanks. I've seen some but not all. Will have a look.

 

[Stew998]

No, all through platform access at Street level.

Most ramps are in the wrong place (will have track over the top) but new fire escapes at the city end of the platforms will exit on to that passage way instead. (All platfoms including terminating also have fire escapes at the country end). the passage way will be unticketed in the future.

Oh dear, some Southeastern passengers won't be happy!

Glad I go Southern!

 

[hwl]

Oh dear, some Southeastern passengers won't be happy!

Glad I go Southern!

Indeed! and ditto.

It will be interesting to see what species of pedestrian crossings are on Tooley Street. If they don't have lights no traffic will ever move, if they do have lights passengers will probably ignore them....

 

[IanKR]

Yep, the line through platform 9 is called the Up Passenger Loop still.

Still? Isn't it all new?! (genuine question). Or do you mean that it's the equivalent of the old track 7 that by-passed LBG?

 

[carriageline]

Yeah, it is new. They kept the same line name for some reason. It's indicated on the workstation as Up Pass Loop.

 

[Minstral25]

Oh dear, some Southeastern passengers won't be happy!

Glad I go Southern!

Depends which bit of Southern. If you are metro then you will remain in the terminating platforms, but all services from South of East Croydon will end up on Platform 5 and you will be exiting on Tooley Street

I'd expect a lot of problems with the volume of passengers exiting there to walk across London Bridge. It's a virtually continuous stream of people now in the morning and evening peaks and I don't see that changing. How will they control the traffic?

 

[ijmad]

So, according to the KO2 document (also posted earlier in the the thread but the link is dead!), it seems the Western Arcade vaults route to the tube will be closed after the lower concourse opens for some months at least, possibly until the end of the works in 2018 (although not clear from the documents). At the same time the Kent Line escalators will be changed to the public side.

I wonder what the signposted route from the trains to the tube will be for this period? I'd guess that from the upper concourse, people would be directed across and down the Kent Line escalators. From the lower concourse, I'd imagine they might walk along St Thomas St to Joiner St.

Anyone else know better?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Depends which bit of Southern. If you are metro then you will remain in the terminating platforms, but all services from South of East Croydon will end up on Platform 5 and you will be exiting on Tooley Street

Thats not 100% true as the Uckfield line is south of East Croydon and will be terminating in the terminating platforms. Surely there will be other services from Horsham, Littlehampton, Eastbourne, Brighton etc that aren't all going through London Bridge?

 

[IanKR]

Yeah, it is new. They kept the same line name for some reason. It's indicated on the workstation as Up Pass Loop.

I see, thanks. But being as it will have its own platform, it's not a *pass* loop any more? Just trying to get my head round the terminology. Railway terms frequently confuse me!

 

[swt_passenger]

I see, thanks. But being as it will have its own platform, it's not a *pass* loop any more? Just trying to get my head round the terminology. Railway terms frequently confuse me!

'Pass' is also short for passenger though?

Interesting that the signal numbering on the opentraintimes live running diagram is sequential through P9 and the 'extra' numbering is through P8. That suggests to me either that P9 was the Up Charing Cross at some stage of the design, as that would be the normal numbering logic, but it's all a bit academic given the way the station will operate normally.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I wonder what the signposted route from the trains to the tube will be for this period? I'd guess that from the upper concourse, people would be directed across and down the Kent Line escalators. From the lower concourse, I'd imagine they might walk along Tooley St to Joiner St.

Anyone else know better?

Looking at the plans it would appear there is no way to get from platforms 8 & 9 which are those through ones in operation to Tooley Street. So I would assume you'll either need to come down in to the lower concourse then back up the terminating side and out through the upper concourse, which seems a bit convoluted! So I can assume it would be easier to come down o intot eh Lower Concourse, out in to St Thomas St, walk along it back in to Joiner St.

However there are stairs/escalators at the western end of Plat 8/9 which state that they drop in to Western Arcade. Its difficult to tell where they drop in but I would assume its likely that they will drop in giving access to Joiner St and will be used by everyone that is not changing trains.

The lower concourse seems a bit superfluous at this time, as only seems accessible from the platforms or St Thomas St

 

[swt_passenger]

However there are stairs/escalators at the western end of Plat 8/9 which state that they drop in to Western Arcade. Its difficult to tell where they drop in but I would assume its likely that they will drop in giving access to Joiner St and will be used by everyone that is not changing trains.

They are designed to be fire escapes only, no escalators, as discussed yesterday and on previous occasions. Please see my post #729 at 1708 last night and its attached drawing.

 

[ijmad]

Thats not 100% true as the Uckfield line is south of East Croydon and will be terminating in the terminating platforms. Surely there will be other services from Horsham, Littlehampton, Eastbourne, Brighton etc that aren't all going through London Bridge?

8 slots in the Thameslink fast line service pattern for the Elephant and Castle trains to merge in to once you get to Blackfriars.

4 of these will be Uckfield and Tonbridge/Reigate trains according to London Reconnections.

4 more slots to fill beyond that.

Looking at the plans it would appear there is no way to get from platforms 8 & 9 which are those through ones in operation to Tooley Street. So I would assume you'll either need to come down in to the lower concourse then back up the terminating side and out through the upper concourse, which seems a bit convoluted! So I can assume it would be easier to come down o intot eh Lower Concourse, out in to St Thomas St, walk along it back in to Joiner St.

That's actually what I meant to write. Go out to St Thomas St not Tooley St. Corrected in my post.

 

[physics34]

Thats not 100% true as the Uckfield line is south of East Croydon and will be terminating in the terminating platforms. Surely there will be other services from Horsham, Littlehampton, Eastbourne, Brighton etc that aren't all going through London Bridge?

All that should be terminating London Bridge are

Victoria to London Bridge
Uckfield to London Bridge
West Croydon to London Bridge
Beckenham Junction to London Bridge
Caterham to London Bridge (off peak only).
Eastbourne to London Bridge (Peak time only)

All of the rest should be going through the core, barring maybe a couple of Brightons and Horshams like you suggest in the peak times.

Im not overly sure what the peak time semi-fast Sutton/Epsom/Dorking to London Bridges are doing though and whether they will be Class 700s.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a relatively up to date diagram in the Sussex route study (final) - Figure 19 on page 31.
Is it also showing Southern services into London Bridge from Norwood Jn?

www.networkrail.co.uk/Sussex-Area-Route-Study-FINAL.pdf

(Looks a bit suspect though as far as LO services go, BTW.)

I doubt any declared 'Southern' routes will ever use 700s.

 

[FOH]

I have no knowledge of the truth but I wonder whether the lack of a high level gateLine where it is now is about forcing passengers to walk past shops.

Since the tunnel will remain, and fire exits tunnelled down and built it seems it was a choice not to open them to the public rather than not being possible.

As I mentioned earlier, other than tube pax and More London workers I can't see who will want to use the lower concourse unless they are forced too. I certainly don't want to be crossing that road. Currently all access to both the City and More London is via traffic free high level walkways.

 

[physics34]

There's a relatively up to date diagram in the Sussex route study (final) - Figure 19 on page 31.
Is it also showing Southern services into London Bridge from Norwood Jn?

www.networkrail.co.uk/Sussex-Area-Route-Study-FINAL.pdf

(Looks a bit suspect though as far as LO services go, BTW.)

I doubt any declared 'Southern' routes will ever use 700s.

yeh, true its just ive seen from a couple of sources that the 6 peak time London Bridge to Epsom/Dorkings (fast to NJ) may be 700s, but elsewhere they havent been mentioned. The up ones in the morning mainly tend to start from Epsom/Sutton.

 

[swt_passenger]

Since the tunnel will remain, and fire exits tunnelled down and built it seems it was a choice not to open them to the public rather than not being possible.

I don't think they are as calculating as to deny exit routes just to increase retail revenue. ISTM they've done something opposite at Waterloo, where they've moved much of it off the main concourse...

Is it more about removing the temptation for passengers to crush load the front of the train because that is where the exit is? Despite the massive rebuild the platform ends are still very constrained in width - and that sort of 'end fed' entry/exit design probably fails all sorts of risk assessments.

So by design London Bridge bound passengers using through trains need to be in the middle of the train, leaving the front for those heading to Cannon St or Charing Cross... Maybe.

 

[carriageline]

'Pass' is also short for passenger though?



Interesting that the signal numbering on the opentraintimes live running diagram is sequential through P9 and the 'extra' numbering is through P8. That suggests to me either that P9 was the Up Charing Cross at some stage of the design, as that would be the normal numbering logic, but it's all a bit academic given the way the station will operate normally.

Platform 9 is also the 'main' aspect route, with a junction indicator for platform 8.