London Bridge reconstruction works

[neilm]

It was a sad day when architects were allowed to become dominant in station design. The rot really became noticeable with the Jubilee Line Extension. When the Victoria Line was done in the late 1960s great efforts were made in its alignment etc to minimise connecting time, it's full of cross-platform connections and the like. The JLE went to the opposite extreme and put the platforms, it seems, as far away from existing lines as they could, but the effectively separate station meant they could scoop up a whole raft of architectural design awards from their mates.

At West Ham the Jubilee platform (island) is effectively underneath the District platform (island). One set of stairs would be great. Instead it requires three separate sets of stairs, two with escalators, and big overlong interchange passages to do a Down-Along-Up-Along-Down between the two. Needless to say the architect scooped awards for their "wonderful" design :roll:

At Reading the new over-high bridge presumably allows for unimpeded catenary height suitable for 140 mph running underneath. Its design doubtless coincided with the progressive change in timetables over the years so that now virtually every service stops at Reading ...

I do believe the Treasury has given an ultimatum to DfT that they do NOT want to fund any more public transport infrastructure spending that becomes an architect's ego trip at the annual awards.

The jubilee line was also designed after the kings cross fire which is why every station has at least two exits (some times just an emergency second one). This why the platforms are on their own and no cross platform interchange as the platforms had to be built with this in mind, along with the comments about them being much larger.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Victoria Line was done on the cheap. It's why the platforms can barely cope with today's loading.

The JLE was actually planned to cope with passenger loadings for around 100 years. The Victoria Line failed to even reach 50 years before station closures became the norm to cope with passenger flows.

To be fair, would anyone have reasonably conceived during the 1960s that passenger loadings would reach today's levels?

And the JLE may well have been planned to cope with passenger loadings for 100 years, but even today, barely 15 years after completion, as far as I can see, trains during rush hour regularly leave passengers standing on the platform, unable to board. Doesn't look to me like planning for 100 years has worked too well

 

[Class377/5]

To be fair, would anyone have reasonably conceived during the 1960s that passenger loadings would reach today's levels?

They got told to make cheaper so it would authorised. That was the big mistake.

And the JLE may well have been planned to cope with passenger loadings for 100 years, but even today, barely 15 years after completion, as far as I can see, trains during rush hour regularly leave passengers standing on the platform, unable to board. Doesn't look to me like planning for 100 years has worked too well

True is badly coping but then passenger numbers have risen far than expected. But my basic point of ensuring there is spare capacity for figure growth is a critical one. You can only plan for what's expected and the general rule of thumb is the numbers will go up.

 

[infobleep]

On the last point Cannon Street will be 22tph but Blackfriars will be 16tph hence circa 1/3 more capacity.

On the Charing Cross lines capacity will still be limited by the 6 platforms at CHX rather than anything else.

4 tracks all the way from LBG to CHX might actually make no difference (or make things worse) as there is a change from paired by direction to paired by use and the twin track section sorts this effectively.

Why did Charring Cross use to have 4 lines running from it? Was that for light locomotive moments or other movements required when steam engines did the pulling of the carriages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Victoria Line, being a tube line, was built to a tube line gauge. In fact my understanding is that the tubes were bored at 11' diameter as against 10' for the earlier lines.

The Victoria Line makes a very elegant cross-platform interchange with the Piccadilly Line at Krapy Rubsniff. I think this was Taunton's point.

Reading allows for trains to pass non-stop at 100mph, not 140. This in an improvement on the previous speed limit of 80mph on the through lines.

If all trains stop at Reading or almost all do, why does the speed need to be increased. I can see why they might want to electrify it just not why they feel the need to increase the speed.

 

[Deepgreen]

Why did Charring Cross use to have 4 lines running from it? Was that for light locomotive moments or other movements required when steam engines did the pulling of the carriages.

As far as I know, there have only ever been two tracks at Borough Market Junction from Charing Cross. It has always been a bottleneck between the four tracks through Waterloo East and from London Bridge southwards. The new bridge at Borough Market will be the first time this bottleneck has been alleviated.

 

[hwl]

As far as I know, there have only ever been two tracks at Borough Market Junction from Charing Cross. It has always been a bottleneck between the four tracks through Waterloo East and from London Bridge southwards. The new bridge at Borough Market will be the first time this bottleneck has been alleviated.

But there were 4 tracks to Cannon Street till 1976, when the current junction arrangements in the area were put in place. The 4 tracks were connected to the 4 tracks over Borough High Street Bridge so CST was accessible from P4+.

The bottleneck is surely the 6 platforms at Charing Cross... (especially after new viaduct, bridge, track and signalling that ease some existing restrictions.)

 

[swt_passenger]

If all trains stop at Reading or almost all do, why does the speed need to be increased. I can see why they might want to electrify it just not why they feel the need to increase the speed.

There will be significant numbers of trains that become non-stop through Reading in the future IEP based timetable, that's why the line speed is to be increased on the up and down main.

 

[HowardGWR]

Originally Posted by @QueensCurve

The Victoria Line makes a very elegant cross-platform interchange with the Piccadilly Line at Krapy Rubsniff.

Only one 'f' in Krapy Rub Snif.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why did Charring Cross use to have 4 lines running from it? Was that for light locomotive moments or other movements required when steam engines did the pulling of the carriages.

It was built with 3 lines running to it (only 2 over Boro Market), and later widened to 4. You can see the evidence of that at most of the bridges.

In steam days most trains to Charing cross went via Cannon St first, and reversed. Hence the original 4 lines to Cannon st from London Bridge. This was sorted in the 1974 resignalling.

 

[infobleep]

It was built with 3 lines running to it (only 2 over Boro Market), and later widened to 4. You can see the evidence of that at most of the bridges.

In steam days most trains to Charing cross went via Cannon St first, and reversed. Hence the original 4 lines to Cannon st from London Bridge. This was sorted in the 1974 resignalling.

Thanks for that. Most interesting. I'd like to get one of the late night Charting Cross to Cannon Street services but I doubt I'd ever get home in time if I did as I live outside of London.

 

[kentman]

It was built with 3 lines running to it (only 2 over Boro Market), and later widened to 4. You can see the evidence of that at most of the bridges.

In steam days most trains to Charing cross went via Cannon St first, and reversed. Hence the original 4 lines to Cannon st from London Bridge. This was sorted in the 1974 resignalling.

This is a nice map, from 1868 to 1873, as it shows the individual lines and junctions, this was before the 4 line was added. 3 into Cannon St from both directions, and 2 across the Market.

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102347415#zoom=6&lat=7211&lon=6309&layers=BT

 

[jopsuk]

It was a sad day when architects were allowed to become dominant in station design. The rot really became noticeable with the Jubilee Line Extension. When the Victoria Line was done in the late 1960s great efforts were made in its alignment etc to minimise connecting time, it's full of cross-platform connections and the like. The JLE went to the opposite extreme and put the platforms, it seems, as far away from existing lines as they could, but the effectively separate station meant they could scoop up a whole raft of architectural design awards from their mates.

At West Ham the Jubilee platform (island) is effectively underneath the District platform (island). One set of stairs would be great. Instead it requires three separate sets of stairs, two with escalators, and big overlong interchange passages to do a Down-Along-Up-Along-Down between the two. Needless to say the architect scooped awards for their "wonderful" design :roll:

What utter rot.
At Westminster, the lines had to be deep due to the river. The access cmes right straight past the SSL
At Waterloo, the lines had to cross the existing lines at right angles. Anything else would involve very odd snaking. So they had to be very deep.
At London bridge, any attempt to align for cross platform with the Northern would mean more building under the river, which is frowned upon apart from required crossings
At Canada Water, the JLE access is shared with the access to one of the ELL platforms
Canary Wharf is in a dried out and then filled in (with building) dock bed. The towers had already been built, so it had to miss the foundations. This explains the interactions with the DLR
Canning Town is directly under the busier of the DLR platforms. At the time, the Stratford branch was the unloved North Woolwich line. Rearranging everything here, and all the way to Stratford, for cross platform interchange would not have made economic sense, especially as there still wouldn't have been cross-platform at Stratford and a flyover would have been needed just south of there.

Which brings us to the absolute nonsense you spout about West Ham.

The LTS platforms (the District is the Metro tracks of the LTS) are east of Manor Road. By the time the lines are over the Jubilee and DLR, they've narrowed almost completely back together. But that's OK, because the Jubilee and DLR platforms are to the south of the bridge, with the only thing between the tracks here being the pillars of the bridge.

Your suggestion would require the bridge of the LTS over the ECR lines to be entirely rebuilt in order to fit the access in. You'd then need to find a different route for the access from the main station building to the not very wide LTS platforms (not really wide enough to accommodate stairs mid platform).

So, rather than entirely rebuild the LTS station with new bridges over Manor Road and the old ECR lines plus wider island platforms, they compromised by simply building an over bridge for the ECR platforms that passed over Manor Road and joined to the LTS concourse.

This is way off topic, but then so was your rant against "architect led design". I'm not even architect, and do get annoyed when they stick their oar in where they're not welcome, but the JLE is not one of those places.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Cross platform interchanges are nice but not so useful if people need to get of one train onto more than one other route or direction of route. An example is Oxford Circus where the Northbound Victoria line platform has a lovely level walk to the Northbound Bakerloo line. This is probably what most interchanging passengers want so is the best solution but for those who instead want to go Southbound on the Bakerloo it not very convenient at all. In this case allowing the two routes to cross each other allows for easier/shorter routes and staircases. So cross platform interchanges only work well if most of the travellers want to go the same way if changing.

The connections for tubes etc would work a lot better if all the buildings in London were not there of course. But then who would need the trains !.

 

[GodAtum]

Cross platform interchanges are nice but not so useful if people need to get of one train onto more than one other route or direction of route. An example is Oxford Circus where the Northbound Victoria line platform has a lovely level walk to the Northbound Bakerloo line. This is probably what most interchanging passengers want so is the best solution but for those who instead want to go Southbound on the Bakerloo it not very convenient at all. In this case allowing the two routes to cross each other allows for easier/shorter routes and staircases. So cross platform interchanges only work well if most of the travellers want to go the same way if changing.

The connections for tubes etc would work a lot better if all the buildings in London were not there of course. But then who would need the trains !.

I do miss the middle platform bridges at London bridge. Very convinient for changing platforms instead of having to walk all the way to the end.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I do miss the middle platform bridges at London bridge. Very convinient for changing platforms instead of having to walk all the way to the end.

Very true. I have to remind myself that the footbridge is not there any more as I arrive. Mind you, currently, I cannot change onto a Thameslink or Charing Cross train anyway !. I hope there is a bridge put back across the middle or country end when its all finished. Just occurred to me that the lack of the foot bridge might well be contributing significantly to the congestion on the current concourse for the terminating platforms.

 

[Bald Rick]

No over bridge. Just the largest concourse in the country underneath, all served by escalators, lifts and stairs. It opens in 14 months.

The first new escalator went in this week. It's still in bubble wrap.

 

[FOH]

Very true. I have to remind myself that the footbridge is not there any more as I arrive. Mind you, currently, I cannot change onto a Thameslink or Charing Cross train anyway !. I hope there is a bridge put back across the middle or country end when its all finished. Just occurred to me that the lack of the foot bridge might well be contributing significantly to the congestion on the current concourse for the terminating platforms.

Yep, I wish they would add a couple of minutes to the arrival times of trains for PPM purposes on platforms 10 and 15 as it literally takes a few minutes of queuing to leave these platforms.
Even on the others it gets very busy past the hoardings and very dangerous as they dispatch trains on the other side.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yep, I wish they would add a couple of minutes to the arrival times of trains for PPM purposes on platforms 10 and 15 as it literally takes a few minutes of queuing to leave these platforms.
Even on the others it gets very busy past the hoardings and very dangerous as they dispatch trains on the other side.

Only if you sit at the back, and even then it's not queueing as such, just a slowish walk to the front. Usual platform clearance time int he peak is now 3-4 minutes, and it takes nearly 3 mins to walk the full length of the platforms from the gate line anyway.

And it is absolutely not dangerous.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No over bridge. Just the largest concourse in the country underneath, all served by escalators, lifts and stairs. It opens in 14 months.

The first new escalator went in this week. It's still in bubble wrap.

Wow!

So would I be correct in thinking that means that the new concourse will open about the same time as the SE changeover happens next year - when CHX trains start calling at London Bridge, and CST trains stop calling there?

 

[Bald Rick]

Wow!

So would I be correct in thinking that means that the new concourse will open about the same time as the SE changeover happens next year - when CHX trains start calling at London Bridge, and CST trains stop calling there?

First half opens 29 August 2016. 0500.

 

[FOH]

And it is absolutely not dangerous.

Except when squeezing past the hoarding and an ECS is silently cleared out of the adjacent platform with no whistles - one started moving while I was actually touching it such were the crowds.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

First half opens 29 August 2016. 0500.

That's a very precise date a long way in the future!

I shall bookmark this post and hopefully remember to check in 14 month's time. If it does indeed open on that day, I imagine congratulations on the successful planning will be in order

 

[Class377/5]

That's a very precise date a long way in the future!

I shall bookmark this post and hopefully remember to check in 14 month's time. If it does indeed open on that day, I imagine congratulations on the successful planning will be in order

If you think that's long way, I believe the Thameslink route through London Bridge will be open from 02:00 2nd January 2018.

 

[Class 170101]

First half opens 29 August 2016. 0500.

Opening on Bank Holiday Monday? You surprise me.

05:00 Tuesday I wouldn't have been surprised by.

 

[N Levers]

That's a very precise date a long way in the future!

I shall bookmark this post and hopefully remember to check in 14 month's time. If it does indeed open on that day, I imagine congratulations on the successful planning will be in order

Only 18 years late...

 

[Bald Rick]

If you think that's long way, I believe the Thameslink route through London Bridge will be open from 02:00 2nd January 2018.

0400, buts what's 2 hours between friends. (The signalling is signed in at 0200, possession 2 hours later).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only 18 years late...

Different project.

It could be said that Crossrail is 70 years late.

 

[Class377/5]

0400, buts what's 2 hours between friends. (The signalling is signed in at 0200, possession 2 hours later).

Ah thanks for the correction.

 

[Deepgreen]

No over bridge. Just the largest concourse in the country underneath, all served by escalators, lifts and stairs. It opens in 14 months.

The first new escalator went in this week. It's still in bubble wrap.

Let's hope the escalators do better than those at Birmingham New Street!

 

[amarshe]

Only if you sit at the back, and even then it's not queueing as such, just a slowish walk to the front. Usual platform clearance time int he peak is now 3-4 minutes, and it takes nearly 3 mins to walk the full length of the platforms from the gate line anyway.

And it is absolutely not dangerous.

I sit at the back of the Peckham Rye service arriving 0826 (because it's quieter and staff often ask people to move towards the rear of the train).

It takes me 60 seconds to walk from the barriers to the front of the train in the evening peak and about 4-5 minutes to get off the platform during the morning peak.

It's a very slow shuffle with some periods of stopping, not a slow walk.

 

[EM2]

Opening on Bank Holiday Monday? You surprise me.

05:00 Tuesday I wouldn't have been surprised by.

Best time I'd have thought. Less likely to be very busy, and a day to iron out any little bugs before the hordes descend.