Loganair - No longer for sale

[heathrowrail]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-67018371 After one year of being up for sale, the Bond brothers have decided not to sell the airline "to complete fleet renewal" in other words nobody wanted to buy their airline and they've had to come up with some excuse. It really does make me laugh when J Hinkles used to mock Flybe and act as if his airline was better, when it's clearly not.

 

[Chester1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-67018371 After one year of being up for sale, the Bond brothers have decided not to sell the airline "to complete fleet renewal" in other words nobody wanted to buy their airline and they've had to come up with some excuse. It really does make me laugh when J Hinkles used to mock Flybe and act as if his airline was better, when it's clearly not.

There isn't sufficient market for a domestic focused operator. In time Loganair will probably go the same way as Flybe. Labour may introduce legislation at some point that severely curtails domestic flights. From an environmental perspective we can't really justify more than GB - NI flights and flights to the remote points of UK and to the Crown Dependencies. Maybe BA etc running shuttle services to Heathrow selling through tickets only. Its easy to see why businesses don't want to buy Loganair. In 10 - 20 years what markets will it serve?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nobody wanted to buy it at a price that was acceptable. Happens all the time in all sorts of industries.

Its easy to see why businesses don't want to buy Loganair. In 10 - 20 years what markets will it serve?

The same markets it serves now?

Loganair is predominantly Highlands and Islands, those routes aren’t going anywhere.

It really does make me laugh when J Hinkles used to mock Flybe and act as if his airline was better

Well it is better as Loganair is still operating and Flybe went bust twice.

 

[randyrippley]

It's the same ongoing saga just repeating itself...........endless cycles of going bust then being refinanced.
Loganair was part of the "Airlines of Great Britain" group along with Jersey European, Manx, British Midland and others I can't remember. Somehow BA ended up refinancing the group and much of Manx ended up being painted in BA livery and trading as British European..........then went bust again, re-emerged as FlyBE, went bust a couple more times. Midland went under and were bought by BA for its Heathrow landing slots. Loganair have been distinctly rocky a few times and had to cut back to it's Highland and Islands core, while what happened to JE?
All of them repeatedly failing and struggling due to overexpansion, with OTT costs.
While they were flying small aircraft like Shorts 360's and Jetstream 31's they had controlled costs. The minute they switched to leasing BA's surplus ATPs they lost control and started on the downward repeat spiral
And of course the Kegworth air crash pretty much put an end to Midland......

 

[Bletchleyite]

Loganair is predominantly Highlands and Islands, those routes aren’t going anywhere.

If the airline did fold it wouldn't surprise me to see the Scottish Government nationalise it, but as a smaller operation only doing those "socially necessary" type routes.

 

[Chester1]

Nobody wanted to buy it at a price that was acceptable. Happens all the time in all sorts of industries.


The same markets it serves now?

Loganair is predominantly Highlands and Islands, those routes aren’t going anywhere.


Well it is better as Loganair is still operating and Flybe went bust twice.

Has there been any rumours or reports of potential bidders?

There is huge political risk over the long term. A Scottish government might want the island services going electric in the next few years. A Scottish government owned national operator subsidising island services and making them zero emissions would be a popular policy. A UK government could introduce legislation limiting flights were there is a reasonable alternative. A four hour alternative law along lines of French 2.5 hour law would end some of Loganair's routes. E.g. Liverpool - Isle of Man.

 

[d70g]

There is huge political risk over the long term. A Scottish government might want the island services going electric in the next few years. A Scottish government owned national operator subsidising island services and making them zero emissions would be a popular policy. A UK government could introduce legislation limiting flights were there is a reasonable alternative. A four hour alternative law along lines of French 2.5 hour law would end some of Loganair's routes. E.g. Liverpool - Isle of Man.

Liverpool - Isle of Man is often used by patients unable to get hospital treatment on the island, so is likely to stay regardless of which airline is on the route.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the airline did fold it wouldn't surprise me to see the Scottish Government nationalise it, but as a smaller operation only doing those "socially necessary" type routes.

Quite a lot of Loganair’s network is already PSO-type work, and not just in Scotland. The London City and Heathrow routes from here are underwritten by the IOM government, and the patient transfer contract helps the commerciality of the Liverpool and Manchester routes. They also do the PSO stuff for places like Derry/Londonderry. I think Manchester-Newquay may be financially supported too.

But yes, I could see the Scottish government bring it in house if needed.

After all, Guernsey’s government has persisted with Aurigny for a reason. And I think if Loganair went bust we’d get into bed with Aurigny- Guernsey seem to keep trying to persuade us.

A four hour alternative law along lines of French 2.5 hour law would end some of Loganair's routes. E.g. Liverpool - Isle of Man.

The IOM-Liverpool route is the primary way that IOM patients get to hospital appointments in the UK. Loganair are doing it because they were the only ones capable of stepping in at short notice when Flybe v1, who previously had the contract, went bust and left us in the lurch.

There isn’t an alternative, either- the ferry to Liverpool doesn’t run in the winter.

Banning such flights wouldn’t be in the UK government’s gift anyway, not unless they wanted to shred every OpenSkies agreement they have. We’re autonomous here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2023 ==

. A Scottish government might want the island services going electric in the next few years

The island puddle jumpers will go electric within 10-15 years, I’m sure. I’m thinking of r he stuff they currently fly with the Britten Norman Islander and the Twin Otter.

The rest? Not for a long while. Electric planes aren’t going to have the range for, say, Glasgow-Sumburgh any time soon.

 

[Chester1]

Quite a lot of Loganair’s network is already PSO-type work, and not just in Scotland. The London City and Heathrow routes from here are underwritten by the IOM government, and the patient transfer contract helps the commerciality of the Liverpool and Manchester routes. They also do the PSO stuff for places like Derry/Londonderry. I think Manchester-Newquay may be financially supported too.

But yes, I could see the Scottish government bring it in house if needed.

After all, Guernsey’s government has persisted with Aurigny for a reason. And I think if Loganair went bust we’d get into bed with Aurigny- Guernsey seem to keep trying to persuade us.


The IOM-Liverpool route is the primary way that IOM patients get to hospital appointments in the UK. Loganair are doing it because they were the only ones capable of stepping in at short notice when Flybe v1, who previously had the contract, went bust and left us in the lurch.

There isn’t an alternative, either- the ferry to Liverpool doesn’t run in the winter.

Banning such flights wouldn’t be in the UK government’s gift anyway, not unless they wanted to shred every OpenSkies agreement they have. We’re autonomous here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2023 ==


The island puddle jumpers will go electric within 10-15 years, I’m sure. I’m thinking of r he stuff they currently fly with the Britten Norman Islander and the Twin Otter.

The rest? Not for a long while. Electric planes aren’t going to have the range for, say, Glasgow-Sumburgh any time soon.

I didn't know the Liverpool route was used for medical reasons. In theory UK could legislate over the Crown Dependencies but I can't imagine any government going that far. There might be some pressure to formalise it as a PSO route and make it go electric once electric planes are sufficiently large. Range isn’t going to be an issue.

A Labour government would have at most three seats to lose from banning all non electric flights within England and Wales. Routes like Newquay - Manchester are not guaranteed to be allowed in next 10 - 20 years. I am not saying any of these measures specifically are likely but I am making the point that domestic air travel will be a target of net zero policy and Loganair has a mature network. A buyer will need to see sufficient growth to risk their money.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The big difference between the situation in France and the situation within the UK on domestic air travel is that on the roots that they have cracked down on there is a realistic surface-based alternative. We're not going to manage that in the next 10 or 15 years, and before sun bright spark comes at me and says HS2, that would probably have made about a 30-minute difference on a journey such as new key to Manchester and absolutely no difference on a journey from Inverness to Exeter for example

The obvious answer would be to introduce an affordable network of sleeper trains that every time it's proposed in a speculative thread it is rubbished on here by The usual suspects. Scottish government don't want to nationalize loganair and have at several points been under a bit of precious to do so as the camp that doesn't like private companies being handed massive amounts of government subsidy has made its voice heard. To be totally fair the loganair operation is pretty good and does its best but has struggled recently with staffing and higher costs and reliability issues. I would personally think that as an operation it would be far more sailable once they've completed the fleet renewal as they say and maybe made a few changes in tweaks to the bits of the network that make them money

 

[Tetchytyke]

The big difference between the situation in France and the situation within the UK on domestic air travel is that on the roots that they have cracked down on there is a realistic surface-based alternative.

It’s worth remembering that France has only brought the ban in for the sale of domestic tickets on these flights. Air France still fly from Paris to places like Nantes and Lyon, it’s just that those flights only carry connecting passengers.

An important way of saving the planet, or a way of excluding SNCF’s biggest competitor from the marketplace? You decide.

Anyway, back to Loganair. The routes they fly don’t have viable alternatives to air travel. The biggest problem for Loganair (and Eastern) remains EasyJet, who are able to go in on the busiest routes and compete aggressively due to their larger planes and drip-pricing model.

I wouldn’t say their reliability has been particularly poor, but Loganair’s issue remains a lack of spare capacity. If a Loganair plane goes tech you just have to wait for them to fix it or get a replacement. And, in fairness, Loganair will generally try to fly stuff if they can- in the past they’ve sent a E145 all the way from Aberdeen to cover specific flights here when the ATR72s based here went tech. EasyJet, on the other hand, just tend to shrug.

 

[Scousemouse]

I tried logan air. Once a month I need to be in London for a day and I live less than 20 miles from dundee. I tried them once - never again. All you get on board is water/tea/coffee and VERY small pack of pretzels. Due to the aircraft Dundee-heathrow is nearly 2 hours. You don't even have the option to pay to buy anything. The, because they go into heathrow, its a nightmare schlep from heathrow to the city anmd back again the same evening.

Much easier to get up a bit ear,ier, get dropped off at Edinburgh. Proper business class and lounge and straight into london city. I'm at my desk by 0915 when I barely made my 11 oclock meeting when I went logan. And the price is actually more expensive than edinburgh-city economy - I pay the different to get get properly fed and watered and collect the airmiles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The obvious answer would be to introduce an affordable network of sleeper trains that every time it's proposed in a speculative thread it is rubbished on here by The usual suspects.

Sleeper trains to where? They already operate on the routes long enough to justify them, bar possibly North East to South West for which I think there would be very questionable demand.

For shorter intercity routes, earlier first trains and later last trains would do the job just fine, e.g. a 2330 Euston-Liverpool and Manchester. Much better to get in your own bed around 2-2:30am than "sleep" on a train fitfully all night. At present, air tends to have a stranglehold over this sort of market, specifically with early flights that are early enough to reach a 10am meeting or training day (I think 9am meetings are largely a myth, but 10am is very common) but quick enough to say goodnight to the kids and get some sleep in your own bed first, and to get back the same day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

I tried logan air. Once a month I need to be in London for a day and I live less than 20 miles from dundee. I tried them once - never again. All you get on board is water/tea/coffee and VERY small pack of pretzels.

Do you normally have a full English and a couple of pints of ale on a one hour train journey? It's a bus with wings, basically. Coffee is quite adequate.

Due to the aircraft Dundee-heathrow is nearly 2 hours. You don't even have the option to pay to buy anything. The, because they go into heathrow, its a nightmare schlep from heathrow to the city anmd back again the same evening.

The Lizzie has completely changed that. Straight into the City just as quick as the DLR does from LCY. I get that you can get through LCY a bit quicker but I'm no fan of the place now - it was nice when it had ten gates and was mostly served by 50 seat Fokkers, but the flight capacity (both number and size of aircraft) has got much bigger and the terminal hasn't. Yet T2 and T5 have turned Heathrow from one of the worst international airports in the world to one of the best, it's a pleasure to use it now as long as it's one of those two terminals, and even T4 has been tarted up a bit and isn't that bad.

 

[Scousemouse]

Sleeper trains to where? They already operate on the routes long enough to justify them, bar possibly North East to South West for which I think there would be very questionable demand.

For shorter intercity routes, earlier first trains and later last trains would do the job just fine, e.g. a 2330 Euston-Liverpool and Manchester. Much better to get in your own bed around 2-2:30am than "sleep" on a train fitfully all night. At present, air tends to have a stranglehold over this sort of market, specifically with early flights that are early enough to reach a 10am meeting or training day (I think 9am meetings are largely a myth, but 10am is very common) but quick enough to say goodnight to the kids and get some sleep in your own bed first, and to get back the same day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==



Do you normally have a full English and a couple of pints of ale on a one hour train journey? It's a bus with wings, basically. Coffee is quite adequate.



The Lizzie has completely changed that. Straight into the City just as quick as the DLR does from LCY. I get that you can get through LCY a bit quicker but I'm no fan of the place now - it was nice when it had ten gates and was mostly served by 50 seat Fokkers, but the flight capacity (both number and size of aircraft) has got much bigger and the terminal hasn't. Yet T2 and T5 have turned Heathrow from one of the worst international airports in the world to one of the best, it's a pleasure to use it now as long as it's one of those two terminals, and even T4 has been tarted up a bit and isn't that bad.

The Lizzie line has not made it any easier.... I tried it two months ago. They fly into terminal 2. The 0700 departure basically does not land until about 0915 and its a good 30 minutes from the gate to train platform. Then you get the Lizzie line which in my case got terminated at paddington rather than running through. I was running late by this point and pissed off so ended up in a cab and barely made my 11am meeting. On the bus from the plane to the terminal a lot of people were saying it was a lot less useful than when it used to fly into city.

I may not want a full english on the way down but I do like a few wines/G&T's on the way home. No option to even purchase them.

City does have on advantage - its a trial site for the new scanners so no need to take anything out of your bag and can take as much liquid as you want.

I'm doing the trip this F
riday again. I'll get dropped at Edinburgh about 0530 - straight through fast track and into the lounge. fed and watered. Sleep on the plane. At. my desk by 0915. Return flight is 1900 - I'll leave at 1630 and be through security with a glass of vino by 1715 at the latest. Collected from Edinburgh 2000 and on my way home.

The food and beverage is not the deal breaker if they flew into city. But combining the Heathrow and the service, its a no from me.

 

[Tetchytyke]

All you get on board is water/tea/coffee and VERY small pack of pretzels. Due to the aircraft Dundee-heathrow is nearly 2 hours. You don't even have the option to pay to buy anything. The, because they go into heathrow, its a nightmare schlep from heathrow to the city anmd back again the same evening.

I’m not sure comparing Loganair economy with BA CityFlyer business class is particularly fair. Given BA CityFlyer “business class” seats are identical to their economy seats, and given there isn’t a lounge at City, I’m not sure I’d be spending the extra, but you pay your money and you make your choice.

BA CityFlyer economy service is pretty good to be fair, and the E190 seats are the best short-haul seats going. But on BA mainline you don’t even get a coffee.

I’ve never had an issue with Loganair’s in-flight offering, a coffee and a Tunnocks caramel wafer is plenty for a 90-minute flight.

but I'm no fan of the place now - it was nice when it had ten gates and was mostly served by 50 seat Fokkers, but the flight capacity (both number and size of aircraft) has got much bigger and the terminal hasn't

I think when the terminal expansion is complete it’ll be back to being an excellent airport. I still prefer it to either Heathrow or Gatwick.

Luckily Loganair fly from here to City as well as Heathrow, and City is a much nicer airport.

 

[DarloRich]

@Tetchytyke - what is the view of Logan Air on the IoM? I ask as the boss has friends out there and they seemed very dismissive of them but less so than Easy Jet! It was kind of a shurg and a roll of the eyes as if the service wasn't of a suitable standard for high class users and that the cost was obscene for a flying bus!

She has friends who are regular users of the Logan Air services to London both (City for business and Heathrow for international business) and the Easy Jet services to Liverpool/Manchester - they ALL complain about the ferry btw!

( I have only ever ferried to the IoM so have nothing to judge it by)

 

[Tetchytyke]

what is the view of Logan Air on the IoM? I ask as the boss has friends out there and they seemed very dismissive of them but less so than Easy Jet! It was kind of a shurg and a roll of the eyes as if the service wasn't of a suitable standard for high class users and that the cost was obscene for a flying bus!

There’s a certain subset of people who seem to want to fly for £25 and get free wine and caviar included. Same as anywhere, really.

The London Heathrow and London City flights are underwritten by the IOM government.

I think Loganair are seen as expensive because they don’t do drip-pricing. The standard basic fare includes a 15kg hold bag.

This means that, for those doing day trips or short trips and able to take a small rucksack, Loganair are genuinely expensive compared to the drip-pricing of EasyJet and Aer Lingus. There’s something to be said for only paying for what you use.

My experience is that the second you start taking hold luggage then there’s usually little difference between Loganair and EasyJet, and it comes down to timing. I’ve just been on holiday- out with EasyJet with 2x23kg hold bags was £120 for the two of us, back for the two of us with Loganair with 2x23kg hold bags was £140 for the two of us.

Reliability is a thing though. I went to Lanzarote, Sunday PM from Manchester. So I had to go out Saturday AM to Manchester as anything less than that and there’s a real risk of a cancellation ruining your holiday.

As for on-board comfort, it’s an ATR72, it’s not a luxury aircraft. Perfectly comfy for an hour’s flight to London, though.

EasyJet are having problems with the late Gatwick flight. Our airport has a hard curfew of about 11pm. That flight is due to arrive at about 8.30 and go out about 9pm. It gets cancelled with remarkable frequency because EasyJet aren’t able to get it in and out before the curfew.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This means that, for those doing day trips or short trips and able to take a small rucksack, Loganair are genuinely expensive compared to the drip-pricing of EasyJet and Aer Lingus. There’s something to be said for only paying for what you use.

There is, but the problem with charging for hold baggage is that it has led to hand luggage charges because everyone carries on to avoid paying. When hold baggage was universally free, tourists would always check - only business passengers would go carry-on-only because time had high value for them, and resultingly there was enough space for everyone.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is, but the problem with charging for hold baggage is that it has led to hand luggage charges because everyone carries on to avoid paying

My recent experience now is that EasyJet’s smaller weight hold charges aren’t noticeably different to their large cabin bag charges. Usually there’s a couple of quid in it at most, so I’ve been using hold bags more with EasyJet.

I wonder which airline will blink first and charge for ALL cabin bags?

The trouble with drip-pricing is that it’s really hard to compare, especially now both hold and cabin bags are dynamically priced and you can normally only get the prices AFTER you’ve put all the passenger details in.

Here this means Loganair have a reputation for being expensive although, factoring everything in, there’s usually naff all difference. My non-scientific gut feeling is that people here automatically go orange and disregard Loganair for this reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder which airline will blink first and charge for ALL cabin bags?

The EU is paying a lot of attention to this carry-on carry-on (!) and I believe is considering mandating 56x45x25 being free by law (presumably gate checked on smaller aircraft). That'd knock all that on the head, though unless they do yes, I could see one saying "no bag at all unless you pay, just the stuff in your pockets". Though there could be uproar about ladies' handbags if they did, there already to an extent is because these tend to substitute not for another bag but rather for pockets.

 

[DarloRich]

EasyJet are having problems with the late Gatwick flight. Our airport has a hard curfew of about 11pm. That flight is due to arrive at about 8.30 and go out about 9pm. It gets cancelled with remarkable frequency because EasyJet aren’t able to get it in and out before the curfew.

thanks - i did wonder about that flight as that was mentioned as one that cant be relied on

 

[Tetchytyke]

thanks - i did wonder about that flight as that was mentioned as one that cant be relied on

It can’t. The airport officially shuts at 9.30 but can be extended on request to 10.30pm or 11pm, subject to ATC. EasyJet routinely use the extension, usually if it’s cancelled it’s because they can’t get in and out before the extension runs out. Occasionally it’s an ATC issue if they’re short and can’t go past 9.30.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I assume in this event that all hotel costs and additional charges can be credited to either the airport or the Isle of Man government whose curfew and rules prevent easyJet from operating the service? Flights run late, their needs to be some sympathy and flexibility although I appreciate the staffing issues at air traffic control. Viewing off topic probably for this thread but somewhere like the Isle of Man I would never consider flying to as the boat just seems like The logical option for me, whereas I would contemplate flying to Shetland if I was time sensitive although again would far rather take the boat as for me it's part of the experience and I'm a good sailor

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume in this event that all hotel costs and additional charges can be credited to either the airport or the Isle of Man government whose curfew and rules prevent easyJet from operating the service?

I'd not have thought so. easyJet have signed a contract with the airport - that they fail to meet it because they time their turnarounds too tightly to save money is 100% their fault and 0% that of the airport.

It used to happen at Luton too (typically they would divert to East Midlands and bus you down the M1, then fly the aircraft back down in the morning first thing), as it had a strict midnight curfew due to the approach being over the town, though I don't think it does any more.

 

[heathrowrail]

There isn't sufficient market for a domestic focused operator. In time Loganair will probably go the same way as Flybe. Labour may introduce legislation at some point that severely curtails domestic flights. From an environmental perspective we can't really justify more than GB - NI flights and flights to the remote points of UK and to the Crown Dependencies. Maybe BA etc running shuttle services to Heathrow selling through tickets only. Its easy to see why businesses don't want to buy Loganair. In 10 - 20 years what markets will it serve?

If you seriously believe that, I can tell you that Labour won't get in. Boris Johnsons old seat shows the public have had enough of net zero.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you seriously believe that, I can tell you that Labour won't get in. Boris Johnsons old seat shows the public have had enough of net zero.

There isn't a totally anti-net-zero major party, so I doubt it will have much effect.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If you seriously believe that, I can tell you that Labour won't get in. Boris Johnsons old seat shows the public have had enough of net zero.

The risk of drifting off topic, totally agree.

There are plenty of ways of making green alterations to our lives and lifestyle without suddenly expecting everyone to spend 36 hours making a journey by surface or water transport costing an awful lot more that they could make in two hours on an Airbus or to go back on topic again, a loganair turbo prop of one kind or another

 

[Chester1]

The risk of drifting off topic, totally agree.

There are plenty of ways of making green alterations to our lives and lifestyle without suddenly expecting everyone to spend 36 hours making a journey by surface or water transport costing an awful lot more that they could make in two hours on an Airbus or to go back on topic again, a loganair turbo prop of one kind or another

I am not suggesting a Labour government will ban routes where the alternative is very long. I have posted against this approach several times in the electric plane vs ban thread. A lot of UK domestic flights have reasonably alternatives now or could have one in next few years with reasonable rail improvements. Any French style legislation will shrink Loganair's market. Does anyone think its a company that is going to grow significantly in the medium to long term?

 

[DarloRich]

It can’t. The airport officially shuts at 9.30 but can be extended on request to 10.30pm or 11pm, subject to ATC. EasyJet routinely use the extension, usually if it’s cancelled it’s because they can’t get in and out before the extension runs out. Occasionally it’s an ATC issue if they’re short and can’t go past 9.30.

one of the comments was - if I needed that flight I would get the train to Lancaster and the overnight ferry instead - at least I would get home!

 

[Bletchleyite]

one of the comments was - if I needed that flight I would get the train to Lancaster and the overnight ferry instead - at least I would get home!

That says a lot, though isn't the overnight boat now freight only?