Locos to do Manc to Blackpool Service?

[gareth taylor]

I've heard a rumour that Locos will do the Manchester to Blackpool services. Does anyone know if true or not?

Heard that DRS was mentioned.

 

[northwichcat]

The fact is the 180s are off-lease in May, by that time it was hoped the 172s would be in service with London Overground to allow for a DMU cascade. In the absence of 172s the 3 possible options are:
1. Delay the return of 180s - which do need quite a bit of work doing to them if they are to be used on the ECML in December.
2. Use loco-hauled stock.
3. Short-form services.

 

[jopsuk]

3. Short-form services.

The cynic in me sees this as the likely "winner"

 

[350401]

The problem there is that there aren't many services that can be short-formed. Most services already run as single units. GMTPE have recently doubled their transport subsidy for rail, and I cant see them being happy with any the services they sponsor to be strengthened being short formed. From what I've heard from guards, every time NT short-form the 07.22 Crewe-Manchester, the 07.14 Macclesfield-Manchester and other similar services, they get fined by GMPTE - i.e. the subsidy paid is reduced by a fixed amount. Thus I think that the loco-hauled option will happen or NT will hang onto the 180's till the 142's return from down south in December, and ideally till the additional 150's come from London Midland next Spring (NT receiving 8 2-car 150's, giving up 4 2-car 156's, net gain 4 2-car trains)

 

[WillPS]

Froth. DfT will arrange for the 180s to stay - seeing as they're allocated to the state operated East Coast, I doubt there's any reason for them not to.

 

[royaloak]

As the ECML is state run they will want that to run as good as possible and as the DafT will say the problems are Northerns fault I reckon the 180s will go, I agree that 3/ is the likely outcome.

 

[dk1]

East Coast are taking on new drivers & advertising the start of direct Lincoln services. Cannot see that being put off for Manchester commuter services. Northern are very lucky they were available for this amount of time.

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't it really First Scotrail that are the lucky ones? 7x142s are subleased from Northern to FGW and 8x158s are subleased from Northern to Scotrail, which they and DfT want to make permanent. The 8x158s could easily be used on the 180 diagrams and the 7x142s sub-leased to FGW could only be sub-leased because of Northern leasing 158s and they had to take on the 180s to fill the void.

East Coast apparently want to do a switch with the 180s so Grand Central has 3 extra 180s and they get Grand Centrals HSTs for the new services. If this is the case then the 180s will have to be done up before East Coast even get their hands on the extra HSTs.

In contrast apparently Northern have recently trained extra crews on 180s, which would seem a bit pointless if they are to be returned in two months.
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From what I've heard from guards, every time NT short-form the 07.22 Crewe-Manchester, the 07.14 Macclesfield-Manchester and other similar services, they get fined by GMPTE - i.e. the subsidy paid is reduced by a fixed amount.

I thought the 07:14 Macclesfield-Manchester service had been removed off the GMPTE subsidy list as Northern didn't have a unit available to strengthen it while they were having to run 2x142s in place of the 323 that was almost written off at Congleton.

On monthly documents produced by GMITA on rail performance they show the services that Northern get a subsidy to sponsor from GMPTE and how many times it was strengthened, not strengthened, cancelled or strengthened by less than the required amount e.g. 2x142s instead of a 150+142.

Northern would lose a subsidy if they can't strengthen services but will gain in not having to pay for diesel and maintainence on the trains they don't have.

The likelyhood is when Northern get the 7 142s back from FGW that they will replace Sprinters on other services to allow the current 180 diagrams to be pairs of 156s.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's been posted elsewhere recently that Northern are now to keep the 180s until December.

In interview with one of the leading rail mags, Northern did say that they were exploring the idea of using loco hauled to replace the 180 diagrams, as well as for the Hartlepool "Tall Ships" event. DRS was mooted following the good work they did for Northern during the Workington floods a few months back. Now that Northern has an extended lease on the 180s, I don't know what has become of the loco hauled idea.