locos running on bio-fuel?

[truckman060473]

In today's local paper (Carmarthen Journal) it mentioned Prince Charles arriving at Carmarthen on the Royal Train and went on to say it was running on bio-fuel. So do any other of the 67's run on it or just the two Royal 67's?

 

[Turbostar]

I've just found this article, apparently it's been branded 'Europe's First 100% Biodiesel Powered Train', but I thought some XC Voyagers have been running on bio fuel as an experiment???

http://fuelpod2.com/royal_train.htm

 

[truckman060473]

oh right. not a new thing then. Sep 2007 it first ran

 

[YorkshireBear]

yeah but bio fuel is not a viable option, we need the land to grow food not fuel. Alot of land does not create alot of fuel to make it worth while. hope XC do not put it inot practise, it's okay for royal train though

 

[MCR247]

It wasn't XC, it was VT. They ran a Euston - Wales on it with IIRC 221136.

 

[rail-britain]

All diesel in the UK has been termed as "bio-diesel" since 2009
A small percentage is sourced from biological sources, rather then synthetic sources

Now that it exceeds 5% it is nothing more than a publicity stunt
The benefits are negligible

 

[Mvann]

Growing oil crops for bio diesel is not viable as stated above, but as we in this country have lots of used veg oil from chip shops, etc, it is worth reclaiming it and using it for bio diesel.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Apparently even if the entire arrable farming land of the UK was turned over to growing bio-fuel it would still not provide anything like enough for our needs, and that's before the problem of growing crops for human and animal consumption, and the loss of farm land for housing. On a world scale the situation is no better, and even coming close to predicted future demands for fuel would mean massive deforestation, which defeats the point from an environmental point of view.

 

[142094]

Bio-fuel doesn't just have to come from crops, there are new experiments to create large volumes of bio-diesel from algae.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Apparently even if the entire arrable farming land of the UK was turned over to growing bio-fuel it would still not provide anything like enough for our needs, and that's before the problem of growing crops for human and animal consumption, and the loss of farm land for housing. On a world scale the situation is no better, and even coming close to predicted future demands for fuel would mean massive deforestation, which defeats the point from an environmental point of view.

Read that in modern railways?
Was an interesting read when he mentioned it.
Sorry if that's not where you found it, i just read it other day.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I happen to work in the biofuel industry, so I hope I'm well-placed to comment on the issues

Bio-fuel doesn't just have to come from crops, there are new experiments to create large volumes of bio-diesel from algae.

Absolutely right. First generation fuels from food crops will never reach more than a few percent, for reasons of crop availability and technical limitations. Algae is one of the most advanced second generation technologies, and "BTL" biomass to liquids is not far behind.

Apparently even if the entire arrable farming land of the UK was turned over to growing bio-fuel it would still not provide anything like enough for our needs, and that's before the problem of growing crops for human and animal consumption, and the loss of farm land for housing. On a world scale the situation is no better, and even coming close to predicted future demands for fuel would mean massive deforestation, which defeats the point from an environmental point of view.

Transport fuel will never be 100% biofuel. However, the use of an increasing percentage, from sustainable and especially waste biomass sources, can provide a large component. Growing corn for ethanol is unsustainable and insufficient; however biofuels from waste (like waste wood, non-food parts of corn and even municipal waste) as well as coal and gas, can be used to make liquid fuels for the overall mix. It is all about that balance.

yeah but bio fuel is not a viable option, we need the land to grow food not fuel. Alot of land does not create alot of fuel to make it worth while. hope XC do not put it inot practise, it's okay for royal train though

Second generation is a different matter - billions of litres can be derived from agricultural and forestry residues and the long term aim of the industry is to move as quickly as possible away from food crops as a feedstock. My source is the International Energy Agency, amongst others.

Incidentally you need around one tonne of biomass to produce a barrel of oil equivalent.

All diesel in the UK has been termed as "bio-diesel" since 2009
A small percentage is sourced from biological sources, rather then synthetic sources

Now that it exceeds 5% it is nothing more than a publicity stunt
The benefits are negligible

That's not correct. It is true that most diesel in the UK contains around 5% fatty acid methyl ester biodiesel and can be termed "B5" but the fuel itself is not termed biodiesel. The term biodiesel refers only to the fatty acid methyl ester component. In fact, Tesco's fuel has been 5%ish for a while (as gasoline around 5% ethanol) for some time without any publicity.

The EU target of 10% biofuel in the European fuel pool by 2020 will have a modest effect on overall emissions (if you believe that CO2 causes climate change) but it is about a journey. 1st gen is a stepping stone, 5% is a stepping stone, 10% in 10 years is a stepping stone, all required on the route to fully sustainable transport.

You use the term "synthetic diesel" which is actually a term for second and third generation biofuel, as well as diesel from coal and gas (i.e. it is diesel but has not come from oil). The South Africans have made synthetic fuel for decades, since the oil embargo, and the US recently approved such synthetic fuel for use in aviation. British Airways are sponsoring a forthcoming plant to make synthetic biofuel from waste in East London.

You are partly right to say the the benefits of 1st gen biofuel can be low in terms of "greenhouse gas reduction potential", some of the savings are modest compared to fossil diesel.

One benefit of a true synthetic BTL diesel is that the carbon saving can be very large (up to 90%) that of fossil diesel, and can be made from marginal and waste crops. So the benefit is most certainly not negligible.


In the case of the royal train (back on topic), if the claim is true, the 67 is running on first generation 100% FAME biodiesel, which will be from food sources such as rapeseed. I have certain doubts about whether the claim is true, at least for anything but the demonstration run mentioned in the press release. The logistical and technical challenges of ensuring a separate fuel supply for two locos, for what is a small fraction of their duties, seems a little easier to say than to do!!


I hope this helps!

 

[142094]

I've done a bit of studying on biofuel as part of the degree, in some cases they can actually be more harmful to the plant (ie more CO2/CH4 etc producing) than other fuels due to changes in land use and other things. However if more research is done into things such as algae and also cellulose decompostion in wood then we may be onto a good thing, since oil is running out. However bio-fuel shouldn't just be the the end answer to the fossil-fuel question, it should be a stop gap until we can get as much energy as possible from renewable sources.

 

[Flamingo]

it should be a stop gap until we can get as much energy as possible from renewable sources.

Wind-powered trains?

 

[142094]

Wind-powered trains?

Lol, well in effect electric trains with the leccy from wind. Maybe in a few hundred years...

 

[WatcherZero]

Im a fan of the coal>Biofuel conversion process, not quite 'renewable' but weve still got lots of non-tapped out coal mines that can be reactivated if the price of coal rose again. Secondary Algae conversion can also be used though major issues around environmental contamination if it leaks.

 

[Zoe]

Im a fan of the coal>Biofuel conversion process, not quite 'renewable' but weve still got lots of non-tapped out coal mines that can be reactivated if the price of coal rose again. Secondary Algae conversion can also be used though major issues around environmental contamination if it leaks.

What about climate change though? Burning carbon based fuel is still going to give us CO2 emissions.

 

[jopsuk]

Biofuel is a partially "closed loop" process- the plants/algae/etc growing absorb CO2 to grow, then it is indeed released again. It isn't quite closed loop- but could be, if the energy required to produce the fuel was sourced from Wind/hyrdo/solar etc

 

[sprinterguy]

Wind-powered trains?

No good, the sails and rigging would get in the way of the OHLE

But electricty generated by wind farms is always a possibility.

As I understand it, the royal 67s are powered by a percentage mix of bio-fuel, mixed with the usual diesel. A figure of 40% biofuel springs to mind, but I'm not sure on that.

 

[Royston Vasey]

What about climate change though? Burning carbon based fuel is still going to give us CO2 emissions.

You're quite right of course. There are two main reasons for the interest in synthetic fuels, whether bio, coal or gas based. One is indeed CO2 and the other is security of supply. The US and China for example are big importers of oil but have vast resources of coal, and there has been a lot of interest in these regions in coal-to-liquids and coal-to-chemicals processes.

As it happens the core processes for converting coal and biomass into diesel are the same, which are gasification and Fischer Tropsch.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Didn't know anything about the 2nd and 3rd gen, i only thought it could come from crops, very good to hear and i now retract my statement saying biofuel has no future. 1st gen biofuel has no major future in transport.

 

[route:oxford]

It's not the first "Royal" train to go green though is it?

The battery rail car served Royal Deeside for many years in the 60s and was recharged by clean, "white" hyrdo electricity.

 

[voyagerdude220]

It wasn't XC, it was VT. They ran a Euston - Wales on it with IIRC 221136.

Something tells me it was a class 220 which was modified. Possibly 220007?

Perhaps 221136 was one of the first Super Voyager units to run through to North Wales? I know 221136 was also the unit involved in an incident a few years ago, where it crashed into a car which was blocking the line somewhere along the ECML.

 

[MggW]

The Royal locos are fuelled specially with biofuel for the Royal Train. The rest of the time the locos run on normal fuel, due in part to price and higher fuel consumption. The fuelling takes place at Bescot prior to the Royal Train running, along with the locos' exams and hand cleaning.

The biofuel is recycled cooking oil.

No other DBS locos run on biofuel.

 

[Teaboy1]

Im a fan of the coal>Biofuel conversion process, not quite 'renewable' but weve still got lots of non-tapped out coal mines that can be reactivated if the price of coal rose again. Secondary Algae conversion can also be used though major issues around environmental contamination if it leaks.

......er.....not quite.....2 me thinks.....soon to be 1.....not lots !!

Usual HRH Prince Charles PR stunt along with running his Bentley on wine and insulating his loft with the FT!!

 

[ainsworth74]

......er.....not quite.....2 me thinks.....soon to be 1.....not lots !!

Those would be active economic mines. There is plenty of coal left in this country its just that by the 1980s it was no longer economic to mine it, should the price of coal rise then it might become economic to reopen mines and start extracting coal that remains in this country.

 

[142094]

The coal coming out of Ellington mine in Northumberland (the last deep mine in the county) before it closed was cheaper to mine than the stuff imported from Poland and Russia. The pit closures after the Strike were IMO nothing to do with the price of coal - Thatcher wanted to destroy the unions and show who was boss at the expense of thousands of jobs, and go for the North Sea oil. Now where has that left us? North Sea oil and gas running out and we can be held to ransom by Russia in the winter if they decide to switch off gas supplies to Europe. But we still have a very good supply of coal under the ground, but hardly any mines left to extract it.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I happen to work in the biofuel industry, so I hope I'm well-placed to comment on the issues

Incidentally you need around one tonne of biomass to produce a barrel of oil equivalent.

I've been wondering for ages, but have never been in the fortunate position to ask someone who works in the biofuel industry, how many kW/hrs of electricity does it take to convert one tonne of biomass to a barrel of oil?

Moving on, I wonder about storage of diesel and how this is achievable when you have a mixed fleet of new and older vehicles. I was at Irish Rail's Inchicore Works the other day and the guy that buys fuel for both Irish Rail and Irish Bus explained to me that they don't run any trains on bio, because although the modern Rotem units are capable of running bio, the older locos can't and they only have one set of fuelling pads etc.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I've been wondering for ages, but have never been in the fortunate position to ask someone who works in the biofuel industry, how many kW/hrs of electricity does it take to convert one tonne of biomass to a barrel of oil?

Sorry, I was away for the weekend! It's impossible to put a definitive answer to your question - this will vary quite widely according to the biomass gasification and fuel production steps (and will also be proprietary information in some cases)

The first stage needs an energy input (it is partial controlled combustion) but the second actually produces quite a lot of energy too (very exothermic reaction). So the process is actually largely self-sustaining. The carbon efficiency of carbon which ends up as useful carbon in the fuel also varies; it can be very high in steady state conditions. There can also be a little upgarding required which will affect the carbon efficiency. BTL fuel has been rated at 70-90% (carbon balance can be potentially over 100% if using waste feedstocks which would otherwise have rotted in landfill, but this technology is several years away.

Essentially therefore, the majority of the energy input really comes from the biomass itself. The efficiency is much higher, by the way, than if you were to simply burn the biomass, which is perhaps 30% efficient, a very poor use of resources. Much better to make fuel out of biomass waste in terms of carbon.

 

[Greenback]

The coal coming out of Ellington mine in Northumberland (the last deep mine in the county) before it closed was cheaper to mine than the stuff imported from Poland and Russia. The pit closures after the Strike were IMO nothing to do with the price of coal - Thatcher wanted to destroy the unions and show who was boss at the expense of thousands of jobs, and go for the North Sea oil. Now where has that left us? North Sea oil and gas running out and we can be held to ransom by Russia in the winter if they decide to switch off gas supplies to Europe. But we still have a very good supply of coal under the ground, but hardly any mines left to extract it.

You are so right. The coal industry was destroyed for purely political reasons. The steel industry was also decimated in 1980/81 purely as a dress rehearsal for taking on the miners.

It was a very effective startegy. The traditional working class, in terms of heavy industry, represented a huge core of Labour support. The destruction of the industries removed a lot of this natural support, causing Labour to have tor einvent itslef as New Labour in order to have any hope of regaining power. And we all know what happened then...

Also, the unions were beaten into the ground, not just steel and coal, but the railway unions, seamen, electricians ( always a moderate group anyway) and many other groups.

Whether or not you agree with the actions of the Conservative governemnt in the 1980's no one can say their industrial relations strategy failed!