Locos and Stock in Nuclear Bunkers?

[Moog_1984]

Now we all know there are various bits of rolling stock and the odd loco on military bases in storage. Some of it maybe being mobilised with this volcano event.

But is there any truth in the rumours that there are some locomotives and stock in nuclear bunkers around the UK?

 

[asylumxl]

Dunno if that rumours true, but there's also the rumour that the Thameslink Box was designed to also be used as a Nuclear shelter.

Considering a weak GSM signal can reach the area around the escelators on the platform, I'd imagine a strong electromagnetic pulse would have no issues.

 

[Moog_1984]

Dunno if that rumours true, but there's also the rumour that the Thameslink Box was designed to also be used as a Nuclear shelter.

Considering a weak GSM signal can reach the area around the escelators on the platform, I'd imagine a strong electromagnetic pulse would have no issues.

" in the event of a nuclear attack, you may wish to gather your family under the kitchen table with suitable canned provisions, water drawn before any blasts and some more buckets as lavatory facilities so you can avoid leaving your improvised air raid shelter until the all clear siren is raised"

or the likes, from "protect and survive"

I know of two sidings which disappear into MOD tunnels. I have heard rumours about one....

 

[deltic]

Now we all know there are various bits of rolling stock and the odd loco on military bases in storage. Some of it maybe being mobilised with this volcano event.

But is there any truth in the rumours that there are some locomotives and stock in nuclear bunkers around the UK?

No and no

What on earth would you want to store out of date locos and rolling stock when you would just commandeer what is presently in service if you need them. Mechanical items need to be in regular use - you cant store them for 20 years and hope to switch them on and expect them to work.

 

[A60K]

Agree with Deltic - these wild stories are just a rehash of the Strategic Reserve...

 

[mumrar]

Agree with Deltic - these wild stories are just a rehash of the Strategic Reserve...

And the strategic reserve is genius in it's level of absolute stupidity.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

No and no

What on earth would you want to store out of date locos and rolling stock when you would just commandeer what is presently in service if you need them. Mechanical items need to be in regular use - you cant store them for 20 years and hope to switch them on and expect them to work.

Fun?

Seriously though, I think its been debunked years ago. It all allegedly arose out of Black Prince being restored at a military base, and a lot of people putting 2 and 2 together and making 22.

That said, there was apparently an interesting article on BBC radio 4 or some such on the strategic reserve, and it did allegedly exist. For a few months. It suddenly struck everyone that maintaining steam locomotives was a difficult task, and presumably wouldn't have been made easier by removing all the water hoses, coaling towers etc. They all got scrapped.

As for diesels, there really isnt that many undiscovered holes in the country. I think the biggest was Monkton Farleigh, and that was abandoned in the 1960s. I think it now gets used for data storage. Suffice to say, Ive walked round it and I think it pretty unlikely there were any bits you could park a diesel locomotive in. They DID have an underground railway in there, but it was a relatively small winch driven thing.

Of course its possible that there is a section I didnt see (it was massive) and there are long forgotten stocks of Westerns and Baby Warships down there. But sadly, I dont think it very likely.

Best place to explore the subject is here.
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/

There WERE strategic stocks kept during the cold war mind. But these were food mountains and electricity transformer stocks, and they were all disposed off post 1992 afaik. There was also a story that parked in Corsham underground were stocks of Bedford MKs and Landrovers.

But no Locomotives.

 

[Dolive22]

There was a bunker very close to Box Tunnel, and there is in fact a connection, but only to drain water. It did originally have a rail link, during the sceond world war when it was used as an ammunition store.

The nearby Corsham Computer Centre is officialy a data processing sentre in support of the Royal Navy, but seems to be buried underground.

The Army do have trains and drivers, all RLC staff. They train from scratch if anyone is interested, inclduing in the TAs. The Army's trains are dealt with at a centre at Bicester outside Oxford. They train with Diesel locomotives, and their staff are also trained to lay track.

 

[route:oxford]

The Army's trains are dealt with at a centre at Bicester outside Oxford. They train with Diesel locomotives, and their staff are also trained to lay track.

It's interesting to take a look at the Bicester network on maps.google.co.uk - it's really quite extensive.

 

[Burkitt]

I know of two sidings which disappear into MOD tunnels. I have heard rumours about one....

Interesting, whereabouts are they?

 

[The Planner]

Bicester is more or less a fully fledged container terminal. If the MOD ever moved out it is an ideal site.

 

[transportphoto]

It's interesting to take a look at the Bicester network on maps.google.co.uk - it's really quite extensive.

Is this it?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...5484,-1.154037&spn=0.020878,0.038581&t=h&z=15

Semi confirmed by this near one of the lines... (the road sign)
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...=BQR3V-URCPRT6gyFIxD_8Q&cbp=12,157.42,,0,4.35

 

[bluebottle]

Is this it?

Yarp.

 

[Mvann]

The Army do have trains and drivers, all RLC staff. They train from scratch if anyone is interested, inclduing in the TAs. The Army's trains are dealt with at a centre at Bicester outside Oxford. They train with Diesel locomotives, and their staff are also trained to lay track.

They do train on steam locos as well. Usually at heritage railways if they do any work there. I know they trained on the standard 5 when they did work at yarwell on the nene valley railway.

 

[moonrakerz]

There was a bunker very close to Box Tunnel, and there is in fact a connection, but only to drain water. It did originally have a rail link, during the sceond world war when it was used as an ammunition store.
The nearby Corsham Computer Centre is officialy a data processing sentre in support of the Royal Navy, but seems to be buried underground.

For various reasons I know the locations you mention very well - it has long amused me to see all the totally inaccurate rubbish that is spread about theses places.

If you wish to get a fairly accurate (and very interesting !) history of this area could I suggest you read:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Underground-Cities-Britains-Subterranean/dp/0850527333

For a quick overview try:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/underground_city/

 

[Oracle]

We have the extensive Marchwood military system nearby.

A friend of mine was a TA officer in the Railway Movements Squadron of the RCT, and he said that they used to 'take over' the FCR at Loughborough once a year for two years to practice operating a railway as part of their annual camp.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

For various reasons I know the locations you mention very well - it has long amused me to see all the totally inaccurate rubbish that is spread about theses places.

If you wish to get a fairly accurate (and very interesting !) history of this area could I suggest you read:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Underground-Cities-Britains-Subterranean/dp/0850527333

For a quick overview try:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/underground_city/

Seconded. The same chap did a book on cold war bunkers which is also well worth getting. Adjoining Box tunnel (memory says actually above it which may be wrong) was the Central Ammunition depot , of which the second tunnel was the loading bay. Next to this I think must be spring quarry, which was converted into an underground engine factory for Bristol aircraft. Part of that latterly was converted into Turnstile, the UK Government nuclear bunker.
http://www.burlingtonbunker.co.uk/
Not sure about their claim that they planned to have Government trains run in there to discharge passengers. If they ever planned to do that, they must have binned it fairly early on because I think the tunnel entrance was converted into decontamination area.

 

[Moog_1984]

It's fairly obvious that some of the reserve trains would either be moved to bunkers or are already in there!

What may seem like a hilarious wind up is quite possibly true: a class 40 and a mixed rake of carriages, wagons and flats in an MoD tunnel somewhere, in the late 80s at least.

40s are pretty basic maintainance and the army had experience of them in the 80s.

They have probably removed the rails leading to the spot so the russian sattellites would not see it as interesting

 

[moonrakerz]

Next to this I think must be spring quarry, which was converted into an underground engine factory for Bristol aircraft. Part of that latterly was converted into Turnstile, the UK Government nuclear bunker.

The Aero engine factory was the "Millenium Dome" of WWII apparently, it cost a fortune and produced about 2 engines !

My wife was taken on a tour of Burlington/Turnstile several years ago, said it was very interesting. At one stage they were walking around by torchlight when everything started shaking and rumbling with dust falling from overhead - just like a Hammer horror movie.
Their guide, an RAF Flight Sergeant, said, "don't worry it's only a High Speed Train going through Box Tunnel above us" !!

There were plans (allegedly) for one train to dash from Paddington to the entrance (by the East portal of Box Tunnel). This would carry the PM and other "important" people needed to run the country - this assumes they would beat the bombs to Corsham.

If you want to be really entertained, do a bit of Googling and read some of the "conspiracy" websites about Corsham and it surrounds !

 

[TDK]

Agree with Deltic - these wild stories are just a rehash of the Strategic Reserve...

There is a class 25 loco stored at Cosford

 

[E&W Lucas]

It's fairly obvious that some of the reserve trains would either be moved to bunkers or are already in there!

What may seem like a hilarious wind up is quite possibly true: a class 40 and a mixed rake of carriages, wagons and flats in an MoD tunnel somewhere, in the late 80s at least.

40s are pretty basic maintainance and the army had experience of them in the 80s.

They have probably removed the rails leading to the spot so the russian sattellites would not see it as interesting

Oh dear!

The demise of the 1st generation diesel fleet has been extensively documented & photographed. There's whole series of books detailing the precise dates of scrapping, etc. My old science teacher used to research this stuff.

On a more practical note, what use would a load of clapped out diesels be? The attraction of steam was its simplicity, and that it didn't contain electrics that could be messed up by a nuclear explosion. That myth has been comprehensively debunked.

This is just an enthusiast fantasy (sadly!).

 

[Greenback]

Oh dear!

The demise of the 1st generation diesel fleet has been extensively documented & photographed. There's whole series of books detailing the precise dates of scrapping, etc. My old science teacher used to research this stuff.

On a more practical note, what use would a load of clapped out diesels be? The attraction of steam was its simplicity, and that it didn't contain electrics that could be messed up by a nuclear explosion. That myth has been comprehensively debunked.

This is just an enthusiast fantasy (sadly!).

Such fantasies should be lumped together with the WWII bomber on the moon...or any of the other brilliant 'headlines' of the 80's and 90's

 

[tbtc]

On a more practical note, what use would a load of clapped out diesels be? The attraction of steam was its simplicity, and that it didn't contain electrics that could be messed up by a nuclear explosion. That myth has been comprehensively debunked.

This is just an enthusiast fantasy (sadly!).

Totally agree.

I don't know where these rumours come from, but its nonsense

 

[Train wasp]

There were plans (allegedly) for one train to dash from Paddington to the entrance (by the East portal of Box Tunnel). This would carry the PM and other "important" people needed to run the country - this assumes they would beat the bombs to Corsham.

That doesn’t make sense to me. Why travel to a remote tunnel far away from London. Far better to stay within the London area in a bunker? There are lots of underground bunkers within the London area capable of withstanding a nuclear bomb.

 

[yorksrob]

That doesn’t make sense to me. Why travel to a remote tunnel far away from London. Far better to stay within the London area in a bunker? There are lots of underground bunkers within the London area capable of withstanding a nuclear bomb.

On that note, can I recommend a visit to the former London bunker at Kelvedon Hatch near Ongar which is now open to the public. A truly fascinating couple of hours. This was decomissioned in the early nineties and was used for government exercises until then (The smell of the toilets confirms this )

 

[AlexS]

We have the extensive Marchwood military system nearby.

A friend of mine was a TA officer in the Railway Movements Squadron of the RCT, and he said that they used to 'take over' the FCR at Loughborough once a year for two years to practice operating a railway as part of their annual camp.

We do still work regularly with the army - had some Port Enabling Squadron or similar down driving the Peak around at 60 or 75 mph not long ago, can't quite remember which.

Also had them down doing Pway and laying S&T troughing last May.

Regular occurence in the operating notices every few months.

 

[Spagnoletti]

As for diesels, there really isnt that many undiscovered holes in the country. I think the biggest was Monkton Farleigh, and that was abandoned in the 1960s. I think it now gets used for data storage. Suffice to say, Ive walked round it and I think it pretty unlikely there were any bits you could park a diesel locomotive in. They DID have an underground railway in there, but it was a relatively small winch driven thing.

There was the narrow guage cableway in Main East and also spurs that led into 12 & 14 district, I think small diesel locos were used in there.
And the other railway connection was the tunnel to Farleigh Down sidings.
I spent a summer showing tourists round there in about 1987, and checking out other underground stuff in the area. Definitely no big trains down there.
Nice underground power station though

 

[Moog_1984]

Oh dear!


On a more practical note, what use would a load of clapped out diesels be? The attraction of steam was its simplicity, and that it didn't contain electrics that could be messed up by a nuclear explosion. That myth has been comprehensively debunked.

This is just an enthusiast fantasy (sadly!).

:roll:Not much use in a four minute warning, stoking up.

Many forties were in very good condition in 1985 in fact and a rationalisation could have kept a core class, but there were inherent issues with the longevity of the engine block and bogies. They and their litte sisters the 20s are bog simple to store and maintain though if in good nick.

 

[Greenback]

So would there be time for a stored class whatever to run to London, pick up the PM and cabinet and return to Corsham ina 4 minute warning then?

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

There was the narrow guage cableway in Main East and also spurs that led into 12 & 14 district, I think small diesel locos were used in there.
And the other railway connection was the tunnel to Farleigh Down sidings.
I spent a summer showing tourists round there in about 1987, and checking out other underground stuff in the area. Definitely no big trains down there.
Nice underground power station though

That wasnt you who liked to turn the big diesel generator off, plunging the place into darkness was it?

Great place anyway, a great shame that it closed to tourists, but at least it appears to be in fairly good hands. It needs to be occupied to prevent vandalization. I recall the guides showing us the narrow gauge you describe, and he explained it couldnt work because prize specimen had nicked all the copper wiring.

moonrakerz, I would love to look around there, though I hear that it was heavily stripped out in its later years. Personally I think in the later years, I think HMG would have decamped to one of the RAF bases around London. There was one thats regularly used as an RAF airport that has a bunker (damned If I can recall the name). Not only is it easier (and quicker) to get to, but its easier to flyout of if need be.
That said, when they build Turnstile in 1962, I dont doubt that was the Government bolthole, but judging by how they are supposed to have downsized it over the years, I doubt if it was the favored place for more than 10 years. It was a bit of a silly place to put it really, if the Soviets had wanted to take out all the road and rail links, Box Hill is pretty much a prime target for attack.

Whats interesting, Is that I dont recall reading anywhere HOW they were supposed to get to turnstile. Whilst In later years it was bricked up and they must have used aircraft, early on they may have used a diesel to get there. There are some pretty unlikely stories that have emerged from that period of Britains Cold War. Peter Hennesy, the leading authority on Britain during the cold war, discovered there were no funds to equip the PMs car with a radio to tell him WW3 was under way. Apparently the plan was to ring up the AA, who would then flag down Super Mac, and tell him the Soviets were coming. No, I seriously am not making that up!

Compared to that ,the Strategic Reserve looks positively sane.