Locomotive Multiple Working

[37069]

This modification was also required when DRS Class 37s were operating ’top and tail’.

Lack of this modification was why the rear loco on the 2009-10 Workington-Maryport shuttles always had a driver (generally Kingmoor or Sellafield from a non-passenger link) riding in it.

 

[43096]

This modification was also required when DRS Class 37s were operating ’top and tail’.

It is more than the fire alarm - a loco working unmanned remotely (at the rear or wherever) on a passenger train requires an automatic fire extinguishing system.

 

[wickham]

Would it have been possible to control a formation of 33/1 + 4TC + 4TC + 33/1 from the leading 33/1 even if the trailing one was manned for safety? What about 4TC + 33/1 + 4TC + 33/1 or 4TC + 33/1 + 33/1 + 4TC?

All of these formations and more (involving emus too) were possible with the SR "27-way" control jumper system and EP braking, in fact you could do virtually anything with compatible stock and locos, and you did NOT require the second loco to be manned as it was fully controlled and monitored from the front cab. On at least one occasion in the 1970s the Sunday morning newspaper train from Waterloo to Aldershot (this train only ran on Sundays) was formed 2HAP + 73/1 + Vac Fitted Newpaper vans ! The train split at Woking and I think the HAP went on to Guildford or Basingstoke, while the 73 + Vans continued to Aldershot. This formation was only possible with a class 73 as the loco had the equipment to "convert" EP braking (from the front) into Vacuum braking (to the rear vans), the 33/1s did not have this "converter" equipment, but the MLVs did.

 

[TheHovisKid]

Would it work with a pair of 47/7s?

 

[43096]

Would it work with a pair of 47/7s?

No.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Would it work with a pair of 47/7s?

Time-Division Multiplex, used through the existing wiring (by separating each electrical signal's phasing) - a very different beast to the "27-way" control.

 

[Paul AC]

The Class 47/7 Time-Division Multiplex (TDM) system was very crude (though fairly novel for its time): it only worked with the DBSO leading ('master') and a single 47/7 pushing' as 'slave'. So, one 47/7 could not control another 47/7.

Compare with AC loco TDM which works between loco classes 86/87/89(eventually)/90/91, Mk.3 and Mk.4 DVTs, and suitably-fitted DBSOs and HST power cars, with any one driving cab as 'master' and any number of fitted vehicles in any orientation as 'slaves'. Of course many combinations would exceed the normal permitted current draw from the overhead supply, but a wide variety of rescue situations could be accommodated, including driving from a cab in the 'middle' of a train with working locomotives both in front and behind. There was a 'repeater' switch for long train formations.

 

[Acathater]

Sometimes top and tail, sometimes both on one end. I seem to recall there had to be both a 73/0 and a 73/1. Something to do with neither being able to do both heating and MU control when on diesel power, so you needed one of each?

Unlikely - the general understanding seems to be the 73/0 were wired to work with the DEMUs, the 73/1 with EMUs. The difference allegedly being a pair of cables being reverse wired so the direction of travel was set differently...

 

[JohnMcL7]

In the case of 37s being used for PLPR/UMT, are both locomotives running at once or how do they work it?

 

[37069]

The Class 47/7 Time-Division Multiplex (TDM) system was very crude (though fairly novel for its time): it only worked with the DBSO leading ('master') and a single 47/7 pushing' as 'slave'. So, one 47/7 could not control another 47/7.

How different was the system to the one used on the later tranche of 47/7s modified for mail train working? I know this was for propelling the PCVs in and out of mail depots.

 

[Hairy Bear]

How different was the system to the one used on the later tranche of 47/7s modified for mail train working? I know this was for propelling the PCVs in and out of mail depots.

Completely different in that the later Pcv version merely transmitted a succession of lights, not controlling the loco in any way. It was not a
multiple way of controlling the loco.

 

[Harpo]

Compare with AC loco TDM which works between loco classes 86/87/89(eventually)/90/91, Mk.3 and Mk.4 DVTs, and suitably-fitted DBSOs and HST power cars, with any one driving cab as 'master' and any number of fitted vehicles in any orientation as 'slaves'. Of course many combinations would exceed the normal permitted current draw from the overhead supply, but a wide variety of rescue situations could be accommodated, including driving from a cab in the 'middle' of a train with working locomotives both in front and behind. There was a 'repeater' switch for long train formations.

WCML DVT driver trainers that I saw put the loco in the middle and DVTs at both ends. Very clever.

 

[edwin_m]

WCML DVT driver trainers that I saw put the loco in the middle and DVTs at both ends. Very clever.

Amtrak did the same for their recent conversion of redundant electric locos into control trailers.

 

[zwk500]

From the latest published standard: (GERT8000-TW1, Issue 22)

For passenger trains:

When Preparing the train, you must make sure that a dead locomotive is formed:
- Immediately behind the hauling locomotive, or
- immediately inside the powering locomotive on a push-pull train, or
- at the rear of the train.

You can operate a train with powered locomotives at both ends of the train in the following circumstances
- When the rear locomotives are providing traction power
- when the rear locomotives are providing an electrical train supply only.

This would suggest that it would be acceptable to couple 2x 68 + Mk5 sets DVT to DVT so that the locos are the outer ends, with both powering.

For freight trains:

You must only convey a dead locomotive formed anywhere in the train except immediately behind the hauling locomotive or at the extreme rear, as long as:
- your train operating company instructions allow this
- you carry out any additional instructions in the train operating company instructions.

The Rulebook does not seem to cover the situation of a passenger train being worked by a powered locomotive formed in the middle of the formation. However, I could be missing something and somebody more qualified than me on the rulebook may be able to correct me.

 

[Sun Chariot]

WCML DVT driver trainers that I saw put the loco in the middle and DVTs at both ends. Very clever.

I saw those workings: an 86 (mostly) in middle of four 821xx DVTs, two DVTs to either side and all DVTs facing "cab outward".
As to why on earth I didn't think to photograph any workings (kicks-onesself emoji...)

 

[43096]

I saw those workings: an 86 (mostly) in middle of four 821xx DVTs, two DVTs to either side and all DVTs facing "cab outward".
As to why on earth I didn't think to photograph any workings (kicks-onesself emoji...)

The Belgians have run a similar combination in passenger service in the past where driving trailers had the necessary train protection kit, but the locos didn’t on Antwerpen to Noorderkempen, as seen here - loco 1354 is in the middle.

 

[Acathater]

The Rulebook does not seem to cover the situation of a passenger train being worked by a powered locomotive formed in the middle of the formation. However, I could be missing something and somebody more qualified than me on the rulebook may be able to correct me.

That was a common occurrence with the WCML mk3 push-pull sets when on Anglo-Scottish Motorail duty.
Southbound the DVT would be leading, 87/90 trailing with two or three car carriers tagged on behind. Northbound they would be behind the DVT.

==edit==
Corrected northbound>southbound and vv

 

[43096]

That was a common occurrence with the WCML mk3 push-pull sets when on Anglo-Scottish Motorail duty.
Northbound the DVT would be leading, 87/90 trailing with two or three car carriers tagged on behind. Southbound they would be behind the DVT.

Wrong way round, surely? West Coast formations had the DVT at the south end/loco north end as standard. So Motorail vans would be behind the loco southbound, behind the DVT northbound.

 

[wickham]

The Belgians have run a similar combination in passenger service in the past where driving trailers had the necessary train protection kit, but the locos didn’t on Antwerpen to Noorderkempen, as seen here - loco 1354 is in the middle.
View attachment 200030

These Belgian trains are usually formed loco, 3 coaches and DT (but as the photo shows this can be varied) - during the peaks and at other times, two such sets are coupled on some services, so it is anyone's guess as to where the locos can be. Sometimes both end up in the middle, sometimes one each end and sometime one on the front or rear and the other in the middle !

 

[Acathater]

Wrong way round, surely? West Coast formations had the DVT at the south end/loco north end as standard. So Motorail vans would be behind the loco southbound, behind the DVT northbound.

Yes you're right. My memory playing tricks again
I've corrected the post

 

[train_lover]

Class 66s run top and tailed on RHTT services with both locos providing power. Whilst I know the OP is specifically talking about passenger services the point I'm making is that its definitely possible to happen based on what current happens on the RHTT trains.

 

[37069]

Can anyone explain the difference between the Blue Star multi system and the DRS house multi system that was fitted to their 20s, most 37s, and some 47s?

I understood them as two separate systems, but I remember a DRS driver once telling me that there was compatibility between them. Though usual DRS operating practice of generally only operating pairs with matching multi systems would suggest otherwise.

 

[D365]

Can anyone explain the difference between the Blue Star multi system and the DRS house multi system that was fitted to their 20s, most 37s, and some 47s?

I understood them as two separate systems, but I remember a DRS driver once telling me that there was compatibility between them. Though usual DRS operating practice of generally only operating pairs with matching multi systems would suggest otherwise.

I’m not sure what is meant by ”DRA house” multi system. But there is an ongoing issue when operating ex-DRS 37s, which have had the cab desk fault indicators replaced with LEDs, in multiple with 37s with the original filament bulbs.

 

[37069]

I’m not sure what is meant by ”DRA house” multi system. But there is an ongoing issue when operating ex-DRS 37s, which have had the cab desk fault indicators replaced with LEDs, in multiple with 37s with the original filament bulbs.

I mean the system fitted to the 20/3s, the Brush refurbished 37s (038, 059, 069, 218, 259, 423, the 37/6s plus the later 37/4 refurbs, and some of the 37/5s), and I think the four original DRS 47s.

The later refurbs tended to have both systems fitted.

Some were Blue Star only - e.g. 087, 194, 261, 682)

 

[wickham]

Class 66s run top and tailed on RHTT services with both locos providing power. Whilst I know the OP is specifically talking about passenger services the point I'm making is that its definitely possible to happen based on what current happens on the RHTT trains.

To "top & Tail" any sort of train and run both locos in multiple (passenger or freight) the intermediate vehicles, be it passenger coaches or freight wagons have to be through wired so the two locos can "talk" to each other. In the USA and I think Australia they use radio for this, so can operate very lenthy freight trains with locos on the front, in the middle and/or on the rear - these secondary locos are referred to as "helpers".
I am not so sure that what you say about both locos on RHTT trains providing power is actually correct - both locos are certainly running, but the one on the rear is probably simply "ticking over" to keep it's systems running. Sometimes, I think these trains are double manned in order to save time at reversing points.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I am not so sure that what you say about both locos on RHTT trains providing power is actually correct - both locos are certainly running, but the one on the rear is probably simply "ticking over" to keep it's systems running. Sometimes, I think these trains are double manned in order to save time at reversing points.

The first minute of this linked video (which I found a couple of years ago) has both front and rear RHTT class 56s depart at full power. Oh - and it's even better with the volume up!

 

[Acathater]

Don't forget there were those Scottish coal MGR trains powered by 3x class 20, one of which was midtrain.
Was said at the time to be "radio controlled" but was never actually explained how. Could just have been drivers chatting over a radio....

 

[Taunton]

The AAR (American association of Railroads), and internal trade organisation of USA rail management who actually do a lot of technical standards, came up with the AAR multiple unit system at an early stage to allow locos from different manufacturers to all work together. It's actually pretty clever, in particular the way it has been enhanced over time while retaining what computer designers would call "backward compatibility", so a modern all-electronic loco can be coupled to and control one from the 1950s with traditional electro-mechanical controls, or vice-versa.

Locotrol is a USA radio-based system for sending AAR control commands without wires to remote units in the formation. It had a lot of development, initially it was in its own separate unit, adapted from a "B Unit" (the non-driving ones) from 1950s USA streamliner loco sets, which of course had their own existing multiple unit connections to other units behind. Having overcome issues like transmission within tunnels, it's now as standard incorporated in new locos. It also does brake commands, which allows the brake pipe to be opened at points back down the train.

 

[edwin_m]

Don't forget there were those Scottish coal MGR trains powered by 3x class 20, one of which was midtrain.
Was said at the time to be "radio controlled" but was never actually explained how. Could just have been drivers chatting over a radio....

The ones I remember, running from Seafield colliery near Kirkcaldy between 1978 and 1981, had two 20s at one end and one at the other. I can't be sure but I'd expect there was one driver each end, and they may have had nothing more than route knowledge and whistle codes to communicate (BR wasn't big on radios). At least with the MGR sets being continuously braked, whichever driver was leading would have had no problem stopping the train.

 

[train_lover]

To "top & Tail" any sort of train and run both locos in multiple (passenger or freight) the intermediate vehicles, be it passenger coaches or freight wagons have to be through wired so the two locos can "talk" to each other. In the USA and I think Australia they use radio for this, so can operate very lenthy freight trains with locos on the front, in the middle and/or on the rear - these secondary locos are referred to as "helpers".
I am not so sure that what you say about both locos on RHTT trains providing power is actually correct - both locos are certainly running, but the one on the rear is probably simply "ticking over" to keep it's systems running. Sometimes, I think these trains are double manned in order to save time at reversing points.

I've driven the RHTT services using 66s for a number of years. Both locos do provide power however I normally isolate the lead loco and have the rear push me for a quieter ride.

As for trains being double manned I've never had this in the years I've been driving. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it certainly doesn't at the depot I work out of.