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Loco indentification?

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sprinterguy

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But where does the 147 number come from?
The usual place, the railway company that owned it. ;)

More seriously, many of the pre-grouping, and to some extent the pre-nationalisation, railway companies weren't always renowned for numbering locomotives logically or sequentially. The LMS at least seem to have largely ordered these locos into a sequence in the 8300 - 8600 series (with 50000 subsequently being added to the numbers of those that survived into BR days), but I don't know how these numbers related to their original LNWR identities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having looked at the picture closely I think it is number 447.
I'm inclined to agree.
 
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LNWR. Webb 18inch Express goods loco.
LNWR 147 built 2/1887. LMS no 8343 from 1/1927, 2nd LMS no 28343 from 3/1943. withdrawn12/1947.
LNWR 447 built 10/1900. LMS no 8551 from 4/1927, 2nd LMS no 28551 from5/1944. BR no allocated 58411(not carried) withdrawn 6/1950.
 

Old Bill

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Sorry to go on with stupid questions, but does 18" refer to the cylinder diameter or the stroke?

Thanks!
 

30907

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18 diam 24 stroke according to the link supplied by sprinterguy.
 
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Bevan Price

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18 diamond 24 stroke according to the link supplied by sprinterguy.

I think you mean diameter, not diamond.

A case of auto spell check getting the wrong word ? I stopped using such things because they gave too many errors.
 

Taunton

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It was common for locos 100 years ago, particularly 0-6-0 goods, to be referred to by cylinder diameter, as the basic format on a number of railways had slowly increased this over time, so older locos might be "16 inch goods" and newer ones "18 inch goods". Load tables referred to them as such. There might be other advances as well, such as higher boiler pressure, but this was a common way to define different classes.
 

Bevan Price

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Loco numbering. Many old railway companies used to fill number gaps left vacant by withdrawn locos when allocating numbers to newly built locos. If there were no gaps, then the number allocated was one higher than the highest number then in use. Blocks of numbers might be allocated if a batch of similar locos was being built. So, the same number could have been used for up to 6 or 7 different locos.

The LNWR 18 inch goods (Cauliflowers) occupied random numbers between 9 and 2502.

The Midland Railway (1907 renumbering), and the GWR were probably the first large UK rail companies to adopt a more systematic numbering system, with distinct batches of numbers allocated to each loco class.

The LMSR adopted the Midland numbering system in 1923, and all locos acquired from other railways (LNWR, L&YR, etc.) were renumbered to conform with the Midland numbering practices.

The LNER only adopted a similar system in 1946/1947.

The Southern never adopted that type of numbering system for the locos it acquired for its constituents, but Bulleid used separate batches of numbers for his new locos.

For anyone interest in old steam locos, the series of "British Locomotive catalogue" volumes by Baxter & Baxter gives dates for building, rebuilding, renumbering & withdrawal dates for all known steam locos of the constituent companies included in the LMSR & LNER.
(They both died before they could do the same for SR & GWR, but these are well covered by the RCTS loco histories.)
 

Taunton

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The random numbering of locomotives by many, if not most, of the pre-grouping companies, and reuse of the lower numbers, seems strange; as far as I can make out from odd comments it seems to have been driven by accountants in their calculations for depreciation and valuing assets. It was not uncommon for a railway which had say 97 locomotives to order 6 more, three of them numbered 12, 23 and 9, being numbers recently withdrawn, and the other three numbered 101-103 as an extension of the numbering scheme.

The first locos were sometimes known as "replacements", although mechanically they were no different to the other three. In accounting minutes, you may find that the cost of the first three was charged to the general expenses account (and not depreciated), and the second three were charged to additional capital of the railway (and depreciated), and quite possibly additional shares would be sold to (in theory) add to the asset base of the company. I wonder if there was some aspect of tax calculations that led to this approach.

All sorts of peculiar variations on this theme happened. In some cases where a loco had been withdrawn one of the latest ones would be renumbered downwards to fill the gap, as if there was some fear of missing numbers. Some railways renumbered locos anyway after say 30 years into a "duplicate list", say by adding an A to the number, which allowed it to be reused for a new build, the older loco being theoretically at the end of its life. There are extreme cases where the pre-grouping company did this to a loco number which was still happily in stock and in use after nationalisation! I can recall from somewhere that some "replacements" were built in the railway's own workshops, while the otherwise identical new capital stock ones were built by outside contractors.
 
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