Loco hauled stuff in Europe

[FQ]

Hi all,

I'm looking at doing a 5 day Interrail in June and was wondering what the main loco hauled routes are as I'd like to avoid units if possible. Any suggestions for decent loco hauled routes to do as well would be much appreciated.

Also, I have nearly no knowledge of European railways so I was wondering what different locos there are and what the loco numbering logic is.

Many thanks,

FQ.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Erm. First of all that sounds awesome and I’m extremely jealous!

Any IC service run by SBB-CHF-FFS (yes that is what my username is based on) should be a loco hauled train with carriages not too different from Mark 2/3 coaches here. ICN trains will definitely be a multiple unit. EC trains too.

DB IC trains are on the whole loco hauled services but recently some new double decker EMUs have been introduced on IC routes.

All RailJet services are loco hauled too as are (I think) SNCF IC Trains.

I hope this helps,
Z

 

[Segedunum]

Germany- a lot of regional loco hauled services still exist in addition to IC- I'm sure the Dresden S-Bahn is still fully loco hauled.

If you want specific information on services in either Saxony (Hamburg etc.) or the North-Rhine Westphalia then drop me a message.

Belgium- Get yourself to Brussels-North and literally wait. There's a plethora of them on all sorts of routes, all stopping at Central and Midi.

 

[Spoorslag '70]

Focussing on the BENE without LUX and Germany (as I have not been to most other regions), there are the following route (per country)::

Belgium: As said: A good chunk of the ICs (e.g. everything between Welkenrath-Liege/Luik/Lüttich-Leuven/Louvian/Löwen-Brussel(s)/Bruxelles/Brüssel (continuing to Gent and Brugge), between Genk-Hasselt-Leuven-Brussel and on the Charleroi-Antwerpen(-Essen), but some are Desiro worked). There are loads of "P"-trains (Peak extras) from Schaarbeek/Schaerbek or Brussel-Zuid/Bruxelles-Midi/Brüssel-Süd/Brussels-South to all sort of destinations, using everything they can find (quite a lot of M4 coaching stock with older and newer locos but some M5/M6 can also be found). The Benelux trains Brussel-Zuid - Amsterdam C are Traxx-Hauled.

Netherlands: Mostly units. There are some Sprinter (stopping) services using 1700s with 70s double-deckers (with a very "nice" green interior). Traxx-Hauled ICs to Brussel and IC-Direct between Amsterdam/Den Haag-Rotterdam-Breda and Eindhoven (via HSL). Then there are the classic ICs Amsterdam-Bad Bentheim-Osnabrück-Hannover-Berlin, which are 1700s to Bad Bentheim and DB 101s from there. The only way to cross from Belgium to Germany by loco-hauled trains is via Amsterdam.

Germany: Every IC (the double-deckers are also loco-hauled sets). A very respectable lot of regional services. In NRW alone there are loco-hauled services on the following lines: RE1 Aachen-Köln-Dortmund-Hamm, RE2 Düsseldorf-Münster, RE4 Aachen-Mönchengladbach-Wuppertal-Dortmund, RE5 Koblenz-Köln-Duisburg-Wesel, RE6 Köln (Flughafen)-Neuss-Düsseldorf-Bielefeld-Minden, some RE9s Aachen-Köln-Siegen, RB27 (Mönchengladbach)-Grevenbroich-Köln-Bonn-Beul-Koblenz - and thats only what springs to my mind at the moment.
To cover some special stuff: there are some loco-hauled IC(E)s using the ex "Metropolitan" stock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_(train, numbers are Mo-Su IC1193/1196 (Berlin-Frankfurt(M)), Fr&Su ICE1040/1043 (Berlin-Düsseldorf). S-Bahn Dresden is indeed fully loco-hauled, as are some peak services around Dortmund on S1&S4 and some S68s around Düsseldorf. Some trains still run with "n-Wagen"(REs or RBs) or Bimz(ICs), which are rather classic inside and have decently sized openable windows.


In Austria there indeed all the RailJets and all ICs/ECs and a very fair bit of REX loco-hauled, but I can't comment on that in so much detail.

There are some (cheap) rovers in the threee conutries I know well, which could work out cheaper, if you do not travel through different countries, but there are none for DB long distance services. During Belgish school holidays, it's just 12€ (+ a one time charge of 5€ for the photocard) for a week of network wide travel (under 26). In the Netherlands, some supermarkets sell cheap Rovers (~15€ for unlimited off-peak travel). In Germany (almost) every "Verkehrsverbund" sells rovers and (almost?) every Bundesland has a rover for regional trains as well as nation wide ones. InterRail will however give you the best results when travelling over borders and quite a lot.

Locotypes: There is a huge variety, from classic 70s DB 111s, which are still in service around Stuttgart, on NRW RE4s and on the last remaining service with "Karlsruher Kopf" control cars between Köln and Kaldenkirchen (~6.30 ex Kaldenkirchen, ~16.30 ex Köln-Deutz) to modern Traxx locos in the Netherlands and on other REs. Almost all ICs in Germany are worked by 1990s 101s, which are pretty boring. The same applies to Belgium, with a good mixture of rather "retro" and quite fancy modern locos.

If you have any questions about Belgium, the Netherlands or Germany, I will try my best to answer them.

 

[30907]

Quite a lot of hailed workings operate with DVTs and fixed formations.
For pure haulage, complete with attaching and detaching Czech Republic and Slovakia are particularly good. Depends how far you want to go though,and I don't think IR would be the most economical for those!

 

[FQ]

Many thanks everyone. Looking at doing Eurostar to Brussels on the first day and then making our way over to Munich. What's the best way to do this with loco haulage then (presumably over to Amsterdam and down from there)?

Our current plan (subject to change for sure) looks something like this:

Day 1:
10:58 St Pancras-Brussels Midi 14:05
14:25 Brussels Midi-Frankfurt 17:09
17:36 Frankfurt-Munich 21:10
Overnight in Munich

Day 2:
Play on stuff in Germany in the morning and then
13:30 RJ Munich-Budapest 20:19 (or 11:30 arr 18:19)
20:40 Budapest-Buchs (Switzerland) 08:34

Day 3:
10:00 Buchs-Innsbruck 12:11
Then
12:21 Innsbruck-Jenbach 12:42 (because it may be a nicer place to have a break for a bit)
13:31 Jenbach-Vienna 17:30
or
12:17 Innsbruck-Vienna 16:30
Spend the evening around Vienna and overnight there

Make our way to Brussels via some funky route (Warsaw? Prague?) and then 14:56 eurostar back to London (arr 16:05)


What of that should be loco hauled and what suggestions would you have for day 4/5?

Cheers!

 

[Spoorslag '70]

Brussel-Frankfurt and Frankfurt-München (you are changing at the Airport?) will be ICE3, so won't be locos. If you contiune to Frankfurt Hbf, you could get the 1819 loco-hauled (IC2295) to München, arriving at 2215 (not on Saturdays). Jenbach is surely a nice place to visit, having no less than two narrow-gauge railways at the station (Zillertalbahn&Achenseebahn).

A rather extreme edition, requiring a later Eurostar would be:
0810 Wien - Breclav 0904 EC 104 (tight connection at Breclav, anyone used this?)
0907 Breclav - Praha Hl.n. 1207 EC 280
1221 Praha Hl.n. - Dresden Hbf 1450 EC 378
1521 Dresden Hbf - Hannover Hbf 1923 IC 2444

night in Hannover and

0840 Hannover Hbf - Amsterdam C 1300 IC 240
1307 Amsterdam C - Rotterdam C 1349 ICD 938
1409 Rotterdam C - Brussels-South 1615 IC 9240
The 1656 is probably rather tight, so the 1756 Eurostar would give you a 1903 arrival in STP. If everything goes to plan, you could leave 9240 at Brussels-North and use a P-Train to Central and another to South.

Everything in this plan should be loco-hauled and everything except for IC2444, ICD 938 and IC 9240 should have a buffet or restaurant, if requiered.

 

[87015]

I'd try and think whether you want to do such a high mileage trip on a few trains or spend more time playing around wherever suits what you are looking for - it's nearly all out there but in five days it's a toss up between trying to look at lots or sample a little bit more. Even Germany you could get a good feel in five days, but probably not in one and a half! There doesn't seem to be much tourist time so I've presumed it's just trains!

Diesel hauled big intercity trains?
Just classic endemic loco types rather than generic TRAXX etc?
Traditional non-push pull operation?
Local rural workings to the middle of nowhere?

Worth thinking how confident you can be without being able to read/speak/understand the lingo and whether this would be a worry - especially if a first trip (It's unlikely to be any issue unless well off the beaten track regardless of country)

The likes of Railjet are far more likely to be there in ten years time than many regional workings

 

[FQ]

Many thanks for the help. If we took the 14:25 from Brussels to Cologne (1615) and then the 16:44 from Cologne to Munich (2110) would they be loco hauled? If not then it'd probably be better to go with the 18:19 from Frankfurt that you suggested.

Coming back I was looking at the following if it's loco hauled:
Day 4:
08:10 Vienna-Warsaw 15:16
16:04 Warsaw-Berlin 22:06
23:42 Berlin-Colgne 06:57
Day 5:
08:44 Colgne-Amsterdam 11:28
12:17 Amsterdam-Brussells 14:08
14:56 Brussells-St Pancras 16:05

Your plan does look rather fun though I have to say.

 

[87015]

Force Koln to Munich via Koblenz into journey planners and anything IC/EC is loco-hauled. More than worth the additional hours as the Koblenz-Mainz section is one of 'the' German scenic routes. If you can get Stuttgart-Ulm in daylight that's pretty good too.

The fast ICEs Koln-Frankfurt not calling Koblenz go down the high speed line which is as dull as they always are!

 

[FQ]

I'd try and think whether you want to do such a high mileage trip on a few trains or spend more time playing around wherever suits what you are looking for - it's nearly all out there but in five days it's a toss up between trying to look at lots or sample a little bit more. Even Germany you could get a good feel in five days, but probably not in one and a half! There doesn't seem to be much tourist time so I've presumed it's just trains!

Diesel hauled big intercity trains?
Just classic endemic loco types rather than generic TRAXX etc?
Traditional non-push pull operation?
Local rural workings to the middle of nowhere?

Worth thinking how confident you can be without being able to read/speak/understand the lingo and whether this would be a worry - especially if a first trip (It's unlikely to be any issue unless well off the beaten track regardless of country)

The likes of Railjet are far more likely to be there in ten years time than many regional workings

We're more going for trains on this trip I think so want to get a good pit of track covered and see what there is to see out of the window. A future trip (possibly a month long one) would be spent doing a bit more exploring but with 5 days you just want to make the most of it.

I'd like to get a bit of 'musical Taurus' action (or at least see a few) and possibly some of the old diesel hydraulics but other than that I'm not fussed: it's about trying some new locos.

We're not planning to venture off the beaten track on this trip so will hopefully be OK with language and it may help me improve my language skills too (I speak a little French and that's about it). A bit of research for some German phrases may be required too.

 

[306024]

There’s so much to suggest it’s hard to know where to start. The former Eastern European countries are far more interesting, but in five days you’d barely scratch the surface, especially if travelling out and back by Eurostar as that eats up quite a bit of time.

Shame to miss the Rhine Valley for starters, a slower train to Frankfurt would be my preference as the high speed line misses all the scenery, but time is against that. Lots of loco hauled stuff in Poland too, with nice cities such as Warsaw, Poznan, Gdańsk, Wroclaw, Krakow etc.

One word of advice, European trains are just as good as ours at running late. Ambitious connections can work if they are booked connections, but I’d not chance 21 minutes in Budapest for example.

 

[Spoorslag '70]

Both the 1425 and the 1644 would be units. You could however take the 1653 Köln-Stuttgart 2024 and the 2053 Stuttgart-München 2319 (or as far as Mannheim and changing there for an ICE -> Unit to München, arriving 2219)

Your alternative plan features an unit between Köln and Amsterdam. You could try around a little using bahn.de which does allow to deselect ICEs, but you will need to travel on an unit for Brussels-Germany (you could try an IC to Welkenrath, L to Aachen (1960s EMU), RE to Köln but that would extend the journey time by a good bit but minimizes the "unitness"). Languagewise, English is taught in German schools from primary education onwards, but with variable levels of sucsess.

 

[FQ]

Thanks for all the help!

There’s so much to suggest it’s hard to know where to start. The former Eastern European countries are far more interesting, but in five days you’d barely scratch the surface, especially if travelling out and back by Eurostar as that eats up quite a bit of time.

Shame to miss the Rhine Valley for starters, a slower train to Frankfurt would be my preference as the high speed line misses all the scenery, but time is against that. Lots of loco hauled stuff in Poland too, with nice cities such as Warsaw, Poznan, Gdańsk, Wroclaw, Krakow etc.

One word of advice, European trains are just as good as ours at running late. Ambitious connections can work if they are booked connections, but I’d not chance 21 minutes in Budapest for example.

I'll leave the countries further east for another time when I have longer to do things there. With Eurostar, it's something I've always wanted to do and it's free with the interrail, unlike flying so I'm trying to keep costs down where possible too.

Thanks for the hint on running late. To be on the safe side it looks like a better idea to do the 11:30 from Munich to Budapest and have a bit of time to explore Budapest and get dinner before heading across to Buchs.

Both the 1425 and the 1644 would be units. You could however take the 1653 Köln-Stuttgart 2024 and the 2053 Stuttgart-München 2319 (or as far as Mannheim and changing there for an ICE -> Unit to München, arriving 2219)

Your alternative plan features an unit between Köln and Amsterdam. You could try around a little using bahn.de which does allow to deselect ICEs, but you will need to travel on an unit for Brussels-Germany (you could try an IC to Welkenrath, L to Aachen (1960s EMU), RE to Köln but that would extend the journey time by a good bit but minimizes the "unitness"). Languagewise, English is taught in German schools from primary education onwards, but with variable levels of sucsess.

The better option (in order to give us more time in Munich for stuff) is probably going to be the ICE to Frankfurt and then the 18:19 to Munich.

Deselecting ICE on the journey planner with Koln-Brussels gives 08:48 Köln-Aachen (09:44), 10:04 Aachen-Welkenraedt (10:19) and then 10:26 Welkenraedt-Brussels 12:03. That doesn't include Amsterdam but does give extra time in Brussels before the Eurostar so may be the better move.

 

[Spoorslag '70]

The 0848 would be a unit, which can be avoided by taking the 0815 to Aachen, which is a rake of double deck stock and a 146. Aachen-Welkenrath/Welkenraedt (Belgium is weird) is guaranteed to be a Belgish MS/AM 66 EMU (built in 1966), which will give some nice thrash up the Ronheide incline. The 1026 Welkenrath-Brussel is a NMBS/SNCB HLE 18 with I11(and - if you are lucky an I10).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thanks for all the help!


I'll leave the countries further east for another time when I have longer to do things there. With Eurostar, it's something I've always wanted to do and it's free with the interrail, unlike flying so I'm trying to keep costs down where possible too.

Thanks for the hint on running late. To be on the safe side it looks like a better idea to do the 11:30 from Munich to Budapest and have a bit of time to explore Budapest and get dinner before heading across to Buchs.


The better option (in order to give us more time in Munich for stuff) is probably going to be the ICE to Frankfurt and then the 18:19 to Munich.

Deselecting ICE on the journey planner with Koln-Brussels gives 08:48 Köln-Aachen (09:44), 10:04 Aachen-Welkenraedt (10:19) and then 10:26 Welkenraedt-Brussels 12:03. That doesn't include Amsterdam but does give extra time in Brussels before the Eurostar so may be the better move.

I assume I don’t have to tell you that the ICE will most likely be an EMU (unless it’s an ICE1 or 2)

 

[Vectron]

If you could leave the previous afternoon/evening (depending on where you are traveling from) you could use the Harwich to Hoek van Holland overnight ferry (arrives 08.00) and then something like:

Rotterdam Centraal 09.09 Bruxelles-Central 11.10 (or change at Antwerpen Centraal and arrive 11.09)
Bruxelles-Central 12.00 Welkenraedt 13:34 (or maybe catch an earlier train and use the classic line to Liege)
Welkenraedt 13:41 Aachen Hbf 13:56 (I assume this will be an SNCB EMU)

which should then give you enough time to get to Munich on loco hauled trains.

I find the best source for the journey to Rotterdam is The Man in Seat61:
https://www.seat61.com/Netherlands.htm#Fares

If you do keep to your original plan then it's probably worth booking a seat on the Bruxelles-Cologne train (it's always full when I travel in the other direction) unless you are slumming it in first class. seat61.com also has a useful section on inter rail travel.

 

[Spoorslag '70]

The "Hoeksche Lijn" (Schiedam Centrum-Hoek van Hollan) is currently being rebuilt into a metro, which should have been running by now but now is expected for Autumn 2018. Thus a bus journey (on not really fit-for-purpose busses) would be requiered, which may or may not fill Fishquinn's boat - otherwise it is indeed a nice idea. 1 hour might be a bit tight for the transfer to Rotterdam Centraal, but is doable, if the bus is on time (the Dutch trains - mostly - are). There are rather modern gates at some dutch stations and Schiedam Centrum is one of them, to open them, you will need to use the quadratic code that should be somewhere with your Interrail (or use the helppoint).

 

[bspahh]

If the aim is to actually see the locomotives, I would try to get on or off at a terminus, and avoid tight connections. If you are on a long train, the windows don't open, you might find that the you don't see much of the loco.

I got a copy of the new edition of Europe By Rail for Christmas https://www.europebyrail.eu/

Its focus is on the journeys rather than the trains, but it fills in some interesting details, beyond what you get from a timetable or www.seat61.com

 

[TheAdelante]

Hi all,

I'm looking at doing a 5 day Interrail in June and was wondering what the main loco hauled routes are as I'd like to avoid units if possible. Any suggestions for decent loco hauled routes to do as well would be much appreciated.

Also, I have nearly no knowledge of European railways so I was wondering what different locos there are and what the loco numbering logic is.

Many thanks,

FQ.

Wow man, that sounds pretty cool. I’d love to be able to explore all of Europe by train at leisure, that would be awesome!
Do you plan to do any sleeper trains, most of those are loco hauled I think? R

 

[Fred43123]

Wow man, that sounds pretty cool. I’d love to be able to explore all of Europe by train at leisure, that would be awesome!
Do you plan to do any sleeper trains, most of those are loco hauled I think? R

I'm not sure how many Sleeper trains are left in Europe, I would use this link here to Man in Seat 61's website for advise on sleeper trains.

 

[30907]

1. You've struck lucky with the 10.00 EC ex Buchs as it's the only proper daytime LH service on the Arlberg, and double headed as far as Innsbruck. Your other Austrian trains are all Railjets.

2. If you are planning to use sleeper rather than couchette in the other direction, may I suggest forgetting Budapest and using the Vienna portion (EN466/467) which has the surviving double deck sleepers (and you get lounge access beforehand).

3. If you want diesels, then the EC Munich-Lindau or (with luck) the IRE Ulm-Lindau are 218 workings.

 

[TheAdelante]

I'm not sure how many Sleeper trains are left in Europe, I would use this link here to Man in Seat 61's website for advise on sleeper trains.

Oh of course, I forgot about that. Thank you

 

[AlexNL]

Erm. First of all that sounds awesome and I’m extremely jealous!

Any IC service run by SBB-CHF-FFS (yes that is what my username is based on) should be a loco hauled train with carriages not too different from Mark 2/3 coaches here. ICN trains will definitely be a multiple unit. EC trains too.

The Twindexx Swiss Express EMUs have recently been certified for commercial operation, so they might pop up on some routes which are currently run with a loco.

EC trains can be an EMU (e.g. routes to Italy) or can be loco-hauled, for example on the EC to Hamburg. It depends.

DB IC trains are on the whole loco hauled services but recently some new double decker EMUs have been introduced on IC routes.

The ICE 4 trains (formerly known as ICx) have entered squadron service on the Hamburg - Munich route as per the latest timetable change.

All RailJet services are loco hauled too

Correct.

as are (I think) SNCF IC Trains.

SNCF are introducing Coradia Liner EMUs to their intercity services, the first ones are already running on Paris - Belfort. Other routes have transferred to TER services (also operated with Coradia units), and new EMUs are on order for intercity work in Normandy.

---
A handy tool to find out what the composition of a train is likely to be is Vagonweb's train compositions tool. Enter the number of the train you're looking for, and it will give you the planned composition. There can always be changes on the day itself (such as a set swap due to unavailability) of course.

 

[cactustwirly]

Does anyone know if there are still any BR 218s left in Munich, and what they work?
Thanks

 

[87015]

Does anyone know if there are still any BR 218s left in Munich, and what they work?
Thanks

Yes, little change in last couple of years since 245s arrived. Best bets are Fussen REs and Zurich ICs, Muhldorf work is largely peak hours unless get one out all day on a 245 diagram which IME is common.

The Kempten RE fleet is now "real" TB11 engines ones rather than the bent ones they used to have, but the stock is all deckers now.

 

[theblackwatch]

May I suggest you take a look at Jon Wilcox's excellent site, European Traction, which gives plenty of ideas for things to do in Europe, including a calendar of events, things you can combine with the family, looks at particular types of locos, what there is at a articular place, etc.

 

[FQ]

Many thanks for all the help everyone. I've now got a much better idea of what I'm doing.