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Loco Classes

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Masbroughlad

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Has there been every number used from 01 to 92 used in loco class numbering?

How were/are the numbers picked? Why were gaps left and then filled eg 87 then 89 now 88.

Not sure what got me thinking of this but if anyone can help that would be great!

And what happens when we hit 99 and all class numbers have been used?

The things you think about when you can't sleep! :eek:
 
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krus_aragon

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If you take a look here, you'll see a list of what class numbers have been used, or at least proposed for use. There's a general pattern to them, sorted as they are by power source and output. You'll see some classes have been reused already (Class 22, 43, 70 for example), so there's nothing to stop more being reused. As an example, there's nothing in classes 10-19 still running (IIRC), so those could be reallocated en-masse if you wanted to.
 

MK Tom

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Class 88 was originally an electric version of the 58. A lot of the time a gap (like 51 for instance) was for a planned class that never got built. Same happens with units, like 157.

It's also a power classification thing. Type 1 up to class 20 I believe, type 2 up to 31, type 3 up to 37, type 4 up to 47. Or thereabouts. Everything 50 and above is type 5. People please correct me if I'm wrong about any class there.
 

sprinterguy

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The loco classes that have never been used are as follows:
18, 19
32, 34, 36, 38, 39
49
51, 54
61 – 65, 69
72, 75, 78, 79
93-96

Though several of these designations have been earmarked for loco designs that were not proceeded with, such as classes 18 and 38 for the Railfreight business and class 36 being apparently proposed for an ETS fitted variant of the class 35 “Hymek”. Some allocated classes were a bit more obscure, such as class 97 covering a hotch-potch of different classes of rail vehicle that passed into departmental service and class 99 which was used for British Rail’s fleet of ships.

The following Wikipedia page gives a few more ideas of designs that were proposed to fill some of the gaps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Rail_unbuilt_locomotive_classes

It is also worth pointing out that the five digit numbers used by the individual vehicles of DMUs, EMUs and hauled coaching stock occupy many of the available slots in the 01 – 99 series, and it is generally accepted that two different vehicles cannot be allocated the same number simultaneously. For instance Pendolino carriages occupy a large proportion of the available values in the 69000 series, Colas class 66s started at 66841 as number 66811 – 66840, and 66861 - 66890 are used by the intermediate vehicles of London Midland class 350/1s (So they may run into conflict if they take on many more class 66s for similar reasons!) and the former Virgin Trains “Thunderbird” class 57s used the lower half of the 57300 series, the upper half of which is used by the 57 vehicles of former class 155s converted to class 153s.
 
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Peter Sarf

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The class 53 was the Diesel electric version of a Western :). It was called Falcon iirc and numbered D1200 it had the same Maybach MD655 engines as a Western. It was aprototype that spent most of its time running round in South Wales, freight mainly iirc. It never carried the number 53001 though so I guess that whole class would have always been re-usable. Any rail vehicle number can be re-used if the original vehicle stopped carrying it a long time ago. I don't know what a long time is :oops:, I think tens of years. Someone else will know.
 
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sprinterguy

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Any rail vehicle number can be re-used if the original vehicle stopped carrying it a long time ago. I don't know what a long time is :oops:, I think tens of years. Someone else will know.
It was my understanding that a number can be re-used after four years out of use.
 

Beveridges

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Locomotives classes are given the number based on power.
So the higher up you go the more powerful the locomotive, with (today) 08s at the bottom of the pile and 92s at the top.
There is one notable exception; class 57s are numbered way too high for their power, they should be numbered somewhere in the 40's. It was done for marketing reasons.
Another (slight) exception is class 55, 56, 58, 59, 60, 66 and 67 which are all very similar in power terms. The power output does not go up as you move up through these classes, but rather, stays about the same.
 
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D365

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It was my understanding that a number can be re-used after four years out of use.

I think that's about right. If we need more AC loco classes, lump the unique surviving ACLG 81-85 locos into 82 (82008/DVT) or 89 (preserved locomotion). Or even dive down to 74/75 (moving 76/77 into 89) so that up to 96 is all AC electric!

Locomotives classes are given the number based on power.

Pretty much, but like all 'systems' it's just gone out of hand ;)
 

rebmcr

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Locomotives classes are given the number based on power.
So the higher up you go the more powerful the locomotive, with (today) 08s at the bottom of the pile and 92s at the top.

Not quite correct. 08-79 is diesel, based on power, with 73 being an anomaly.

80+ is electric, again with a few exceptions.
 

Class172

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Not quite correct. 08-79 is diesel, based on power, with 73 being an anomaly.

80+ is electric, again with a few exceptions.
And I thought it was:

08-72 is diesel, based on power; 73-79 DC; 80+ AC. Hence with the class 73 bridging the gap between diesel and electric.
 

WestCountry

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And I thought it was:
08-72 is diesel, based on power; 73-79 DC; 80+ AC. Hence with the class 73 bridging the gap between diesel and electric.
The 70s and 71s were 3rd-rail DC electrics, with the 74s being higher-powered electro-diesels.
76 & 77 were the Woodhead locos.
 

ffm

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Class 34 was the designation for the slimline class 33, later 33/2
Class 7x means(t) DC power, class 70 (original) and 71 were never diesel engined. The re-use of class 70 as a diesel is outwith the original system. Marketing now plays more of a role than any true 'system' hence the various class numberings that 'sound', or 'look' more interesting.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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It is also worth noting that some classes can't be used because of coaching stock/multiple unit vehicle number conflicts. For example

570xx - Class 57
571xx - Class 150
572xx - Class 150
573xx - Class 57, Class 153, Class 155
574xx - Class 156
575xx - Class 156
576xx - Class 57
577xx - Class 158
578xx - Class 158, Class 159
579xx - Class 158

We don't have classes 61, 62, 63, 64 or 65 because a lot of these number series are in use by EMUs. 93xxx, 94xxx, 95xxx and 96xxx were used by parcels and newspaper vans.
 
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D365

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I say lump 71001 into the 89 range as well and use 71 and 72 for any additional diesels. 74-79 as 'strategic reserve' for AC locomotion. #CrazyClasses :P
 

D6975

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It simply isn't true that numbers can't be used twice at the same time, because it has already happened (But it is of course desirable). Deltics and bubble cars ran with the same numbers for quite some time. Curiously, the 50xxx and 56xxx series of dmus were renumbered to 53xxx and 54xxx to avoid conflicts, but for some reason the bubbles were left alone. Perhaps it was due to the implementation of TOPS to dmus coming as the deltics were being withdrawn?
 

sprinterguy

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It simply isn't true that numbers can't be used twice at the same time, because it has already happened (But it is of course desirable).
I thought as much, which was why I stated that it was "generally accepted". I was concious of the DMU vehicles in the 500xx and 560xx series being renumbered to avoid conflict with locos, and also of HST catering vehicles being renumbered out of the 40000 series to avoid conflict with class 40 locos, but was having difficulty recalling any instances of duplicated numbers, as with the Deltics and bubble cars.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Going off topic, but why were these also numbered 26 & 27 for a while?

(or am I getting things mixed up?)
Different, earlier, numbering system, specifically, the British Railways 1948 steam era scheme, where electric locomotives took numbers between 20000 and 29999. See the following Wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ssification#1948_numbering_and_classification
 
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headshot119

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It simply isn't true that numbers can't be used twice at the same time, because it has already happened (But it is of course desirable). Deltics and bubble cars ran with the same numbers for quite some time. Curiously, the 50xxx and 56xxx series of dmus were renumbered to 53xxx and 54xxx to avoid conflicts, but for some reason the bubbles were left alone. Perhaps it was due to the implementation of TOPS to dmus coming as the deltics were being withdrawn?

Weren't the bubbles on tops as there class number ie 121032, rather than the vehicle number ie 55032? Hence there was no conflict.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Weren't the bubbles on tops as there class number ie 121032, rather than the vehicle number ie 55032? Hence there was no conflict.

AFAIK it was pretty rare for 1st-gen DMUs to carry set numbers, at least in the format we're familiar with from the 2nd-gen units, i.e. 101xxx, 121xxx as opposed to those specifying operating area or home depot (Lxxx).

I think certain Scottish depots applied numbers in the 'modern' format during the 1980s as did Tyseley. The Manchester area units only carried 'true' set numbers (101xxx) in the later years. Other than the Chiltern and former ATW examples, bubble cars tended to be identified by vehicle number (55xxx) or set numbers in the format Lxxx. As there were only 22 class 55s, 55032 at least wouldn't have conflicted.
 

D7666

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Class 34 was the designation for the slimline class 33, later 33/2


Nope.

34 was the push-pull subclass.

Standard and Hastings 33s were always 33.

--
Nick

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The loco classes that have never been used are as follows:
18, 19
32, 34, 36, 38, 39
49
51, 54
61 – 65, 69
72, 75, 78, 79
93-96


72 was used.

72 was originally for the JA EDLs, 73 for JB.

Likewise as I posted above 34 was push-pull D6500s.

Part of the reason for this was SR had two diagrams KA and KB; KA and KA-22 were standard and Hastings 33s hence hastings were seen as a subclass of standard, but KB was was a separate diagram for pushpull locos.

Likewise they had JA and JB diagrams foe E6100 EDLs, so 72 and 73, and HA and HB -> 71 and 74.

Extending that logic and using some lateral thinking, most of the "gap" numbers do look as if they might have had a use at one time before someone rationalised them e.g. 17 then gap 18 19, one could easily suggest 17 18 19 are what were later 17/1 17/2 17/3 then someone decided that was too silly.

If you take that approach and look at what BR had BEFORE the 1968 when the list was announced, but must have been worked on before 1968 to have finalised it then, you can logically fill almost every gap right up to about 50. I can certainly near it just using a complete 1966 BR Diesel Loco Diagram Book.


Also don't forget the 1968 class numbers were not defined by TOPS, they were used by TOPS but BR did not buy TOPS (from USA) until 1972. Before then they were working on their own system. I have seen somewhere in a technical journal a class list dated about 1965 that is IIRC a 2-digit series but unlike the 1968 BR series (and before someone jumps in, no, it was not the old ER system). IIRC that series was in some sort of logical order but not the same as 1968 01 upwards; if only I could find that list, it might be a clue to the gaps.


--
Nick
 
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Peter Sarf

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I think, before long, a completely new number series will be dream't up. Certainly as the two digit loco class numbers run out three digit class numbers will come along. As they are already used by multiple units its no bib deal - but where are the gaps ?. We will probably end up with UIC (?) style numbers and even barcodes !!!.:-x at some stage. After all how long has the ISBN been around (International Standard Book Number) - must be many decades ?.
 

D7666

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18, 19
32, 34, 36, 38, 39
49
51, 54
61 – 65, 69
72, 75, 78, 79
93-96


Taking those up to and including 51, off the top of my head, without looking back through my BR Diagram Book of 1966, that i can't put my hands on right now, and looking what was in traffic 1966/1967 which would have been when the 1968 series was worked out (because these things do not appear overnight, they'll spend months in committee meetings being agreed).

*Assuming* - without proof - that certain main classes had several class numbers instead of all sub-types were re-merged back to main classes like 72 -> 73 and 34 -> 33, you could get this :

18 = 2nd 17 subclass i.e. what was later 17/1
19 = 3rd 17s i.e. 17/2
32 = 1365 hp Mirrlees BT2 ***
36 = 1600 hp Mirrlees BT2 ***
38 = 10001 <--- this was in traffic in 1966, it is in my Diagram Book
39 = D600 **
49 = 2750 hp BT4
51 = DP2

** I am aware everyone seems to quots 41 as D600; however this was NEVER published in any contemporary BR document. Unless someone here has one - a BR one, not an unoffical publication, and is willing to show it to me, I will always doubt this. There is no reference to 41 as D600s until about 1980 when it appeared from CJMs works. Rather I suspect 41 was allocated to D800-802 and then they morphed that subclass to the main 42s and left 41 free. Further, in the BR Diagram Book diagram DH/400x (I forget the x) for D600 appears in the sheets BEFORE diagram DE/400x (likewise I've forgetton the x) thats is Class 40, hence putting D600 before D200 fits, releasing 41 to be in exactly the right place where D800 diagram preceded D803 etc. HOWEVER this does make one anomaly I cannot fit - D830. - because if D800-802 had their own class then D830 would have, but don't forget I am making assumptions : 41 might have been D830!

*** Mirrlees BT2 as built had 4 power settings 1250 1365 1600 2000 hp. The 2000 hp one had long been downrated, and in time most if not all those that were left were all down to 1250 hp (class 30), nonetheless there were 1365s and 1600s around to about 1965/1966.

((If 1160/1250 hp is enough to split 24/25 and 26/27 then its enough to split BT2 into 1250/1365/1600.))


49 - all duffs were built new with 3750 hp engines except the 5 with the V12 2610 hp engines that became 48s. All the 2750s were rebuilt and downrated to 2580 hp (that became 47) BUT there was still an intention mid 1960s to restore some to 2750 hp. BR bought 50 new Sulzer blocks to do this, they never did it, the blocks ended up in 45s when they made 45/1s.

51 - this is a pure guess. BR had at that time two makers prototypes D0280 and DP2. They bought D0280 as D1200 class 53, there is no reason why they could not have planned to take on DP2, it just got smashed up before they did it. Yes its a guess, but is a good gap filler.

I suggest people who try to do things like 2x are type 2, 4x are type 4 are looking too deeply at this. Think how things are done in the office today. You have a pile of drawings in numerical order in a Diagram Book. You give the lowliest person in the drawing office the task of numbering them into a 2 digit series. They will start at 01 and keep going. They will not come up with esoteric solutions.

Neither did they leave 38 48 blank for new types. This is chickens and eggs. But I suggest the proposed new types got those numbers because they were vacated, not the other way round.


--
Nick
 
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krus_aragon

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I think, before long, a completely new number series will be dream't up. Certainly as the two digit loco class numbers run out three digit class numbers will come along. As they are already used by multiple units its no bib deal - but where are the gaps ?. We will probably end up with UIC (?) style numbers and even barcodes !!!.:-x at some stage. After all how long has the ISBN been around (International Standard Book Number) - must be many decades ?.

I disagree with you there: I don't expect there'll be any need to start using three-digit class numbers for locomotives: there are fewer registered locomotives today than a few decades ago, why should we need more numbers just for the locomotives? TOPS codes have been reused inthe past, and can be again in the future; the only tricky bit is making sure locomotive and MU vehicle numbers don't clash.

With UIC-style numbers, I suspect you're thinking of the European Vehicle Number (EVN). This is mainly being done by adding a prefix to all our existing TOPS numbers. Wagons are expected to carry the new prefixes in full, but locomotives and passenger stock don't have to. See this RGS document: Registration, Identification and Data to be Displayed on Rail Vehicles.

As an aside, from the above document (p15), the most recent plan for locomotives is:
  • Diesel Shunters: 0000 - 0009
  • Electric Shunters: Diesel Shunter or Electric Loco range
  • Diesel Locos: 0010 - 0079
  • Electric Locos: 0080 - 0096
  • Existing Electro-diesels: 0073
  • Heritage Locos: 0098
(But the leading '00' doesn't have to be painted on if they only operate in the UK.)

As for the ISBN, well that's almost as old as TOPS. When that was first developed in the 1960s, it was just for W H Smith, really. It was a set of nine digits, with no barcode anywhere near it. When it became an international standard book number, they just slapped an extra digit on the font. The old 9-digit ones worked with the new system if you put a zero in front of them, e.g. 7153-7850-3 becomes 0-7153-7850-3.

Then barcodes: most of the ones we see have got thirteen digits written underneath them: these are European Article Numbers (EAN-13). Again, to make life easier, the existing ISBN system was integrated into the EAN system with a prefix: "978". That's why almost every book you pick up has a barcode starting with 978. So now 0-7153-7850-3 becomes 978-0715378502 instead. (The last digit is a check that the number was read correctly, and uses a different formula in the EAN. Everything else is the same.)

Over in North America a different style of barcode is used, the Universal Product Code (UPC). This one is twelve digits long. Now the UPC and EAN are slowly being integrated into a new fourteen-digit barcode (GTIN). Again, slap a prefix on the old numbers and they'll work fine in the new system: 9780715378502 becomes 09780715378502 in the new system. But you probably won't find the 14-digit barcode printed on any book or tin of beans today. The fourteenth digit is just to make international data management a bit easier, and isn't needed on the shop floor. Just like TOPS and the EVN system!
 

D7666

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I disagree with you there:

the only tricky bit is making sure locomotive and MU vehicle numbers don't clash.

With UIC-style numbers, I suspect you're thinking of the European Vehicle Number (EVN). This is mainly being done by adding a prefix


I agree with your dis-agreement.


There are 2 types of clash to consider - one is not having numbers clash within databases, the other is avoiding confusion on the ground between two vehicles.


On pages 15 and 16 of the documented cited, the leading 2 digits of the full 11 digit number " Interoperability capability and type of vehicle " provide the clash separation within a database of say a GB class 70 diesel loco that could be locally numbered 70101 and an EMU car locally numbered 70101.


If the full numbers were displayed on vehicle in GB - which there is no requirement to do there is no clash at all, there will always be two different digits in the complete string, because only 1 digit difference in the first two digits will drive a change in the check digit .

There are several calculators on the web, the one I found gave:

92 70 0070101 5 for theoretical loco 70101
94 70 0070101 3 for EMU car 70101
(I did not check the accuracy of it, only posted the output)


As for on the ground, I am not sure how a Class 70 diesel loco could be confused with a 377 middle car. I suppose in a telephone message someone may be confused, but I don't see who would could do that, because staff on the ground can see whether the thing is a DL or an EMU, staff in a TOC or FOC control will know which one since they have no concern with the other, while NR control or a signal box do they actually deal in EMU car numbers without the unit number ?

And, I would hope even the dumbest trainspotter can tell the difference.


No need for new ranges for locos whatsoever, there are no clashes, and no need for new ranges, because, as you say, there are few enough locos to warrant it.


--
Nick
 
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Peter Sarf

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The barcode bit was tongue in cheek.

The only reason I can see for avoiding duplicate numbers is when someone has to key it into a computer system (like tops). The computer system would have no idea if you were keying in the number of a loco or any other vehicle if they have the same number. Easy way is for the human entering the number to enter the correct prefix to use D7666's (sorry not krus_aragon's) example :-
92 70 0070101 5 for theoretical loco 70101
94 70 0070101 3 for EMU car 70101
I can only see one need for the full number to be painted on the vehicle. That is because the human keying in the number cannot be bothered to remember the prefix for a loco (and no hope on the check digit so hopefully not required). Actually it probably would get quite complicated for the system user to remember all the prefixes (forget about the check digit). Other way is for the system to present a (drop down) list of vehicles with the number 70101 (to use the above example). Probably the most user friendly way as, in most cases, there will only be one vehicle for a particuler number. I doubt if the list will have more than a few duplicates in it for any number.

I don't know a lot about TOPS but it appears to not be a bang up to date system using things like drop down lists. I assume it must have been written before windows existed unless it has been re-written ?. So I assume TOPS cannot cope with duplicates ?.
 
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D7666

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The only reason I can see for avoiding duplicate numbers is when someone has to key it into a computer system (like tops). The computer system would have no idea if you were keying in the number of a loco or any other vehicle if they have the same number. Easy way is for the human entering the number to enter the correct prefix to use krus_aragon's example :-
92 70 0070101 5 for theoretical loco 70101
94 70 0070101 3 for EMU car 70101
I can only see one need for the full number to be painted on the vehicle. That is because the human keying in the number cannot be bothered to remember the prefix for a loco (and no hope on the check digit so hopefully not required). Actually it probably would get quite complicated for the system user to remember

It was my example.

People keying in data would not be required to remember anything, because they should always input the full 12 digits, read off the actual vehicle from the field, or from paperwork such as faxes if they really must work that way, or cut and past.

Thats the WHOLE point of these long numbers, to avoid errors and conflicts. To suggest anything where 7 of the 12 digits should be remembered by the system user is wrong, of course they can't remember them, they should not be working that way.

--
Nick
 
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Peter Sarf

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It was my example.

People keying in data would not be required to remember anything, because they should always input the full 12 digits, read off the actual vehicle from the field, or from paperwork such as faxes if they really must work that way, or cut and past.

Thats the WHOLE point of these long numbers, to avoid errors and conflicts. To suggest anything where 7 of the 12 digits should be remembered by the system user is wrong, of course they can't remember them, they should not be working that way.

--
Nick

Sorry Nick. I was trying to credit the person making the quote but got a bit distracted.

Of course not using the full number does defeat the purpose of the check digit.
 
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