Locking out carriages on 185's

[fowler9]

Hi folks, many apologies if this is in the wrong section and also because I know this has been discussed on another thread but I can't for the life of me find it. Not so long ago I read that due to legal paperwork FTPE could no longer lock out the rearmost carriage of a 6 car 185 between Warrington Central and Liverpool Lime Street and thus everyone was asked to leave the rear unit. This made the forward journey a little uncomfortable.

The week before last I caught an evening peak FTPE service from South Parkway to Lime Street and it was again just the rearmost carriage that was locked out. I was wondering if anything had changed legally speaking or if this was a one off. Alas as I work funny shifts and don't always need to head to Lime Street after work I don't know if this was a one off or now occurs on a daily basis.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Maybe a failure of SDO (if they're fitted with SDO)?

 

[Manchester77]

Maybe a failure of SDO (if they're fitted with SDO)?

Not fitted with SDO they'll have until deselect which is what the 450s and 44s have too.

 

[Pumbaa]

No idea. It used to be done (as you say). Every time I caught that service it was done, so possibly a local rule that undergoes frequent changes thanks to management?

 

[Crossover]

Yeah it was done on here recently. The 350's sadly suffer the same fate at Manchester Oxford Road when doubled up, and the whole back unit has to be deselected. I guess there it is slightly less inconvenience (If not ideal) because of the corridor connection

 

[fowler9]

Yeah it was done on here recently. The 350's sadly suffer the same fate at Manchester Oxford Road when doubled up, and the whole back unit has to be deselected. I guess there it is slightly less inconvenience (If not ideal) because of the corridor connection

Cheers for the advice folks. Was really just interested to know. I work in a call centre not too far from South Parkway and can't be sure what time I'll leave work so if I do have to pop in to town I'll try and time my walk accordingly. I'd rather not overcrowd a train that is already full which would be the FTPE service if everyone has to fit in the first three cars. I'm pretty spoiled for choice if I'm heading to town from there.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Hi folks, many apologies if this is in the wrong section and also because I know this has been discussed on another thread but I can't for the life of me find it. Not so long ago I read that due to legal paperwork FTPE could no longer lock out the rearmost carriage of a 6 car 185 between Warrington Central and Liverpool Lime Street and thus everyone was asked to leave the rear unit. This made the forward journey a little uncomfortable.

The week before last I caught an evening peak FTPE service from South Parkway to Lime Street and it was again just the rearmost carriage that was locked out. I was wondering if anything had changed legally speaking or if this was a one off. Alas as I work funny shifts and don't always need to head to Lime Street after work I don't know if this was a one off or now occurs on a daily basis.

Cheers for the advice folks. Was really just interested to know. I work in a call centre not too far from South Parkway and can't be sure what time I'll leave work so if I do have to pop in to town I'll try and time my walk accordingly. I'd rather not overcrowd a train that is already full which would be the FTPE service if everyone has to fit in the first three cars. I'm pretty spoiled for choice if I'm heading to town from there.

The previous working arrangements of locking out only the rear car have been reinstated following discussion with, and permissions from, the Rail Safety and Standards Board.

 

[BestWestern]

I can't see why there would be an issue? Assuming the rearmost vehicle is fully inaccessible and no passengers are able to venture into it while the external doors are isolated, it should all be perfectly 'legal'. The internal vestibule doors would need to be locked closed, and then it's job done!

 

[34D]

The previous working arrangements of locking out only the rear car have been reinstated following discussion with, and permissions from, the Rail Safety and Standards Board.

That sounds a positive result for passengers

 

[222001]

I never understood why these units were not fitted with proper SDO, all 170s have it now.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I can't see why there would be an issue? Assuming the rearmost vehicle is fully inaccessible and no passengers are able to venture into it while the external doors are isolated, it should all be perfectly 'legal'. The internal vestibule doors would need to be locked closed, and then it's job done!

It is not possible to lock the vestibule doors closed on 185 units. You can only isolate the power, but the doors can still easily be pushed open by hand.

 

[fowler9]

I sat in the rearmost carriage as it was pretty empty to be honest. I wouldn't have thought the doors would be any more easy to force open on a locked out carriage. They slide and plug, it would take some effort to force your way out. Cheers for the info again folks.

 

[455driver]

The vestibule door into the next carriage, not the side doors! :roll:

 

[fowler9]

The vestibule door into the next carriage, not the side doors! :roll:

Would you need to lock out the vestibule doors if you can't get out of the side doors? Apparently not based on what is currently happening on the services I am talking about.

 

[455driver]

If you dont lock the vestibule door how do you stop people walking into the carriage?

Oh for information, you cant lock the vestibule door on a Desiro anyway, all you can do is isolate it.

 

[fowler9]

If you dont lock the vestibule door how do you stop people walking into the carriage?

Oh for information, you cant lock the vestibule door on a Desiro anyway, all you can do is isolate it.

All that happens on these services is that the side doors get isolated in the rear carriage. The conductor walks through (Or makes an announcement) before Liverpool South Parkway and tells people that if they are getting off there they need to move forward. I know you can't lock the vestibule doors. I have sat in the rear carriage while its side doors were locked out and actually got on at South Parkway and walked in to the rearmost carriage.

Not arguing with you at all mate. I am just saying that in the past they used to lock out the side doors of the rear carriage, for a while they stopped people using the entire rear unit and now again they are locking out the side doors of the rear carriage. You can still sit in it, you just can't get off at South Parkway.

 

[455driver]

Ah so passengers are in the carriage while the doors are locked temporarily!
The way I was reading "the coach was locked out" is that all the passengers are moved out of the carriage, the side doors are locked and the vestibule door isolated.

Leaving the passengers in the carriage and temporarily locking the doors is a different thing all together!

 

[fowler9]

Ah so passengers are in the carriage while the doors are locked temporarily!
The way I was reading "the coach was locked out" is that all the passengers are moved out of the carriage, the side doors are locked and the vestibule door isolated.

Leaving the passengers in the carriage and temporarily locking the doors is a different thing all together!

Yeah sorry mate. Apologies for not being more clear. A few years back during peak hours when we had 2 185's on the TPE service to Liverpool they would just lock out the side doors after Warrington Central. At some point apparently there was a change made apparently in line with legal documents whereby at Warrington Central the entire rear unit was taken out of use and everyone carrying on to South Parkway or Lime Street got stuck in the front 3 car unit.It was pretty chocka. As recently as 2 weeks ago I had the need to catch one from South Parkway to Lime Street after work and when the six car unit pulled up I saw people getting out of the rear unit so I hopped on, just the side doors of the back car locked out of use.

During the period when the whole rear unit was out of use I used to skip it and get another train in to Liverpool, I'm never really in a rush after work.

 

[455driver]

Isnt it strange how things that have been done for years are now classed as dangerous! :roll:

I am glad to see that common sense has prevailed.

 

[185]

FTPE faced heavy criticism in 2009 from the HMRI following constant changing of published procedures for conductors working the 0715 service out of Liverpool.

Most staff who had worked the service long before FirstGroup took over, disregarded the constantly changing (and often, unsafe / incorrect) instructions, and chose their own safe method of operating the service.

Three methods of locking out vehicles.

- Door by door locking out. Done with a key. Still overideable with emergency door handles.
- UDB Device. Similar to SDO. On double / 6-car units, operated at the rear cab of the front unit. Prevents doors in rear unit opening when doors are released by guard.
- VDE buttons. Temporarily disables the lit-up buttons on (just) one released train's carriage. Perfect if loading up during a rush hour at a busy station. Operates as normal next time guard releases doors.

 

[fowler9]

All I ever saw was door by door locking out. That isn't to say nothing else ever happened.

 

[hassaanhc]

Sounds like a right mess

Out of interest, surely this would be better at something like Isleworth* where a 8.450* is out by about 1 coach, rather than the current UDS method which puts 4 coaches out of commission? (Although this option obviously is easier for the guard! )

* Other stations and 444/450 combinations available!

 

[Monty]

Personally I don't think such an arrangement at Isleworth would be practical during the peak as it can be so busy the last thing the guard wants to be doing is running to the back to lock out the rear coach. It won't matter anyway, Isleworth's platform are being lengthened to accommodate 8 car 450s and the 10 car 458/5s (which have ASDO) will be the mainstay on the route.

 

[northwichcat]

I never understood why these units were not fitted with proper SDO, all 170s have it now.

Apparently Siemens offer it as an optional extra for additional expense opposed to offering it as standard and the option gets rejected each time an order is placed - presumably to save money.

 

[Crossover]

Apparently Siemens offer it as an optional extra for additional expense opposed to offering it as standard and the option gets rejected each time an order is placed - presumably to save money.

I'm guessing so

I'm not sure manual SDO is now allowed on new stuff, which is going to totally stuff the North if so!

 

[fowler9]

Sounds like a right mess

Out of interest, surely this would be better at something like Isleworth* where a 8.450* is out by about 1 coach, rather than the current UDS method which puts 4 coaches out of commission? (Although this option obviously is easier for the guard! )

* Other stations and 444/450 combinations available!

It isn't too bad on the services I mention to be honest. I caught one tonight actually and had plenty of space, it would have been a bit crowded if everyone was squeezed in to three cars though.