Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[bramling]

Indeed, but my biggest point here is that I people I do not "hang around with" as such but people who happen to work in the same building as me, or people I encounter through e.g. sporting events or suchlike.

I'm not disagreeing at all - pretty much everyone I come into contact with is now anti-lockdown, in most cases pretty strongly. But just saying that it's quite possible that the types who are heavily in favour are probably not the sorts you or I are coming into contact with. They clearly exist, as I see a selection of them on social media, clearly loving WFH and wanting all this to go on for as long as they can string it out for. There aren't as many now as there were in the summer though.

 

[Peter Sarf]

.........

Because they know the majority do not approve!

Well that is your opinion. But if they are afraid to be openly pro lockdown is it really because they are in a minority or is it because they are led to believe they are in a minority ?. Or is it for some other reason ?.

What we can be sure of is that lockdown is not popular - why would it be. It is like going to the dentist - nobody wants to go but some feel it necessary to endure. So no lockdown is always going to be a desire. In some ways I was surprised society put up with lockdown last time. But seeing the effect on the NHS was what did it for me. I really hope we do not go beyond that level of proof again. BUT it is a costly thing and I would have dearly loved to see the tiered system being used for longer so we could really see if it worked. But the stakes were probably perceived as too high.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

One of the key issues here is why none of the background information is released in a timely manner to back up decisions being taken. SAGE minutes are at least three weeks stale and some of the supporting papers aren't released for months. None of the Joint Biosecurity Centre info has ever been released despite several ministers agreeing that it would in HoC.

Vallance and Witty have both advocated it should all be in public domain but say they aren't authorised to release it and i believe its Gove Cabinet Office that decides what and when is released. Scotland push out there data/research/evidence on a daily basis to back up the actions being taken.

Then we have the evidence/research to support certain decisions like places of worship being shut or no golf or tennis with more than one Tory MP alleging in the HoC earlier that there is no evidence as it make it up as you go along.

We are starting to operate like East Germany and the one positive from today is those Tory MPs prepared to say it as and lay down challenges not that Hancock or BoJo had to respond but the markers are there.

 

[Scotrail12]

In addition to some of the earlier posts about Mr. Whitty, I've noticed that he had to make an apology today for false claims that rates in Liverpool were rising in the over 60 age bracket:

https://twitter.com/sarahknapton/status/1323989821220704256

Remember when Whitty said yesterday that Liverpool rates in over-60s were still rising - he's been forced to admit he was wrong

Is there not enough evidence that this guy is a fool of the highest order and some of his behaviour seems to be bordering on fraud. Why are they keeping him on?

 

[Peter Sarf]

In addition to some of the earlier posts about Mr. Whitty, I've noticed that he had to make an apology today for false claims that rates in Liverpool were rising in the over 60 age bracket:

https://twitter.com/sarahknapton/status/1323989821220704256

Is there not enough evidence that this guy is a fool of the highest order and some of his behaviour seems to be bordering on fraud. Why are they keeping him on?

I would not want to throw him away unless we can be sure we have a better replacement. We all make mistakes and he has been honest enough to apologise. He probably is more deserving of his role than Dominic Cummings is.

 

[Scotrail12]

He probably is more deserving of his role than Dominic Cummings is.

That bar is set so low that a baby could climb over it no problem!

 

[yorkie]

In addition to some of the earlier posts about Mr. Whitty, I've noticed that he had to make an apology today for false claims that rates in Liverpool were rising in the over 60 age bracket:

https://twitter.com/sarahknapton/status/1323989821220704256

Is there not enough evidence that this guy is a fool of the highest order and some of his behaviour seems to be bordering on fraud. Why are they keeping him on?

I like this reply:

https://twitter.com/TomDebenham/status/1323992431419936769

@aliciakearns as you’ll see - both Whitty and Hancock have used the same fallacious argument re high and sustained cases in Liverpool amongst the elderly to justify further measures. As @carlheneghan pointed out, and Whitty now accepts, this is false. There is still time.

Why do the Government not listen to Carl Heneghan? I have seen numerous interviews with him and, unlike Whitty and co, he looks at the bigger picture.

 

[Crossover]

And so here we are, 18 minutes into Lockdown 2™

 

[DelayRepay]

It depends on who you meet and how wide your circles are; for example the demographics of cleaners at my workplace are about as far removed from the forum membership, and yet I am hearing very similar views expressed among these contrasting groups.

There are very few pro-lockdown people at work that I know of; their arguments have never made sense and even they appear to be having doubts.

My experience is similar but slightly different. Back in March/April, most of my colleagues were pro-lockdown, to the extent that about half of them went over and above the legal rules in place, and continued to act as if we were in lockdown when the restrictions started to ease.

Those same people today are openly saying they will ignore the law, and several have taken a day's holiday this week to do their Christmas shopping before the shops had to close. Not the actions of people who think there is a grave and immediate danger associated with leaving the house!

The people I know who have said they will follow the rules are doing so reluctantly, and generally because they don't want to break the law, rather than because they believe the rules are necessary. Nobody I know in real life has said they think these rules are necessary - that includes work colleagues, friends, family and neighbours, collectively quite a diverse group of people.

 

[Mojo]

The number opposed is only going to get larger over time. Once people switch sides I don’t think they’d ever be going back to being pro-.

 

[Bantamzen]

It appears Labour are in tune with the public on this matter.

https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1323408367143014400?s=20

Source: https://yougov.co.uk/

Be careful what sources you cite, as a public sector worker I can tell you I keep a healthy cynicism with government run polls because, well let's just say the results may lean more towards the narrative of those in charge.

 

[Mojo]

Source: https://yougov.co.uk/

Be careful what sources you cite, as a public sector worker I can tell you I keep a healthy cynicism with government run polls because, well let's just say the results may lean more towards the narrative of those in charge.

It’s all conditioning. BBC news ran a story yesterday about people shopping before the lockdown. In it featured 8 photographs of different people outside, all of whom were wearing a mask. Now I know there are some oddballs that wear masks outside but it’s a bit suspect that the BBC only came across people that were.

Publishing photographs like this, as well as promoting such poll results is conditioning people to believe that this is the norm and normal behaviour, when in fact it is not. My partner is a history teacher and every year when talking about the iron curtain students ask why people didn’t just leave; unfortunately with this, it’s just the same, governments normalised the practices and by the time the population realised what was happening it was too late.

 

[Bantamzen]

It’s all conditioning. BBC news ran a story yesterday about people shopping before the lockdown. In it featured 8 photographs of different people outside, all of whom were wearing a mask. Now I know there are some oddballs that wear masks outside but it’s a bit suspect that the BBC only came across people that were.

Publishing photographs like this, as well as promoting such poll results is conditioning people to believe that this is the norm and normal behaviour, when in fact it is not. My partner is a history teacher and every year when talking about the iron curtain students ask why people didn’t just leave; unfortunately with this, it’s just the same, governments normalised the practices and by the time the population realised what was happening it was too late.

The BBC have been publishing photographs of people wearing masks since March, long before there was any mandate for them. Either the BBC's executives are in favour of them, or they were told early on to try to normalise them. I think we both know which is the case. As for the YouGov polls which always seem to show "the public" in favour of the restrictions, well many years ago in my department a staff survey was pushed so hard by management that my office had a return of 120%. Make of that what you will, but it is why I don't trust what I see on YouGov.

 

[DelayRepay]

... well many years ago in my department a staff survey was pushed so hard by management that my office had a return of 120%. Make of that what you will, but it is why I don't trust what I see on YouGov.

In my private sector job, my boss recently asked me why I had not completed the 'anonymous' employee satisfaction survey!

 

[Horizon22]

I am skeptical support for lockdown is as high as this poll claims. I reckon a lot of people who say they support a lockdown in polls are only saying so because saying you do not support one could be perceived unfavourably.

Comments on various news websites suggests opinion is more evenly split.

Comments and polls are entirely different. I have to say I think this forum is in a minority (albeit significant) from the general population. That's fine it's a bubble around a particular interest, but the poll will not be that far off the mark with a 3:1 split for lockdown.

YouGov was also one of the most accurate General Election pollsters. Whilst there might be some movement due to optimism bias, as I said, its unlikely to be so wide of the mark as to the public sentiment to be anti-lockdown.

 

[221129]

Good god, we had the same thing with somebody at my place of work. Always banging on about social distancing, yet has never worn a mask and has done overtime on many occasions!

That's nowhere near the same thing.

 

[Jamiescott1]

This mornings journey to work.
Roads as busy as normal.
Train was at about 85% of what it has been past few months.
I then usually cycle from Marylebone to work but as my bike is broke I took the tube. My first time taking the tube since February and it was as busy as I remember it used to be at this time

 

[adc82140]

The BBC have been publishing photographs of people wearing masks since March, long before there was any mandate for them. Either the BBC's executives are in favour of them, or they were told early on to try to normalise them. I think we both know which is the case. As for the YouGov polls which always seem to show "the public" in favour of the restrictions, well many years ago in my department a staff survey was pushed so hard by management that my office had a return of 120%. Make of that what you will, but it is why I don't trust what I see on YouGov.

There seems to be a rule now that all photos on the BBC website, whether covid related or not, have to feature someone wearing a mask. At this time of year the same applies to wearing a poppy. The Royal British Legion says that you may choose to wear a poppy to show your support, and it should be displayed on your overcoat. The film of Strictly contestants in training with poppies carefully put on gym vests just for the film makes the BBC look silly. But I digress.

 

[35B]

I suppose it depends on who one hangs around with. Most of the happy work-from-homers are, as it stands to reason, at home. By contrast pretty much everyone in my work is completely sick of this and just wants to return to normal and take their chances.

Precisely. You hang around with people who are sick of it, I'm a work from homer who associates with people who accept lockdown. Neither of our groups are wholly representative; I don’t assume that those I associate with are representative of the population as a whole, nor should you or anyone else.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I had a chuckle yesterday when I drove past my local retail park and it was like a scene from Christmas Eve. Most shops had scores of people queuing up at the doors doing what I call the 'Alton Towers' experience and the car park was completely gridlocked, with traffic on the main road brought to a standstill by the motorists queuing up to get on the car park.

There must have been scenes like this up and down the country with people thinking maybe they won't get chance to purchase Christmas gifts. Its also a good indicator that there may be yet another surge in virus cases as we start the lockdown.

The 2nd December is a 'review' date and not a date for businesses to reopen - I suspect Boris will make an announcement a couple of days later about lockdown easing and will put a date in for the following week. My point is, that I reckon this lockdown will last for up to five weeks not four.

CJ

 

[birchesgreen]

The film of Strictly contestants in training with poppies carefully put on gym vests just for the film makes the BBC look silly. But I digress.

It does look silly but there are an army of people watching avidly for the first poppy slip on the BBC so they can write in to complain.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The SNP and Plaid Cymru abstained. So did some Scottish tories. And so they should have done. I'd like to hear why some Welsh Labour MPs, Scottish Lib Dems and the rest of the Scottish tories decided that voting in favour of an English lockdown thought they had any right to do so.

Because the passing (or not) of the legislation releases (or not) funds for similar action in Wales/Scotland/NI - Barnett Consequentials.
And UK-wide programmes like extension of the furlough scheme for instance.
It's a UK Parliament, not an English one.

 

[RPI]

My experience is similar but slightly different. Back in March/April, most of my colleagues were pro-lockdown, to the extent that about half of them went over and above the legal rules in place, and continued to act as if we were in lockdown when the restrictions started to ease.

Those same people today are openly saying they will ignore the law, and several have taken a day's holiday this week to do their Christmas shopping before the shops had to close. Not the actions of people who think there is a grave and immediate danger associated with leaving the house!

The people I know who have said they will follow the rules are doing so reluctantly, and generally because they don't want to break the law, rather than because they believe the rules are necessary. Nobody I know in real life has said they think these rules are necessary - that includes work colleagues, friends, family and neighbours, collectively quite a diverse group of people.

I reluctantly fall into the latter, I cant risk flouting the rules and potentially facing criminal prosecution (gosh it really does sound real saying it like that!) As I'd probably lose my job, but the whole thing is a farce with Witty and Valance ultimately being able to do whatever they want as Bozo and Gove will just ago along with it and I'm someone who is very much Conservative and has nearly always voted that way, there is literally nothing "Conservative" about these clowns. (Yes I am aware that Witty and Valance have no political affiliation)

 

[duncanp]

I think all those who are in favour of a continuing lockdown should read this story.

Although it comes from Scotland, it is relevant to the whole UK.

Heartbroken family tells parents to speak to their children, after son takes own life due to strain of lockdown

A grieving couple has urged other parents to tell their children they love them every night after their son took his own life due to the strain of the

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

We hear a lot about the strain on mental health caused by COVID-19 in general and lockdown in particular, but it is only when you see a personal story that it becomes real.

There must be many more people like this young man who have taken their own lives, and the ongoing restrictions, not to mention the threat of even more restrictions, such as the cancellation of Christmas, is likely to tip more people over the edge.

A grieving couple has urged other parents to tell their children they love them every night after their son took his own life due to the strain of the coronavirus lockdown.

The Liversedge family from Cushnie bravely opened up about their 16-year-old son Corey’s struggles with teenage anxieties and issues brought about by the pandemic.

© Supplied
Mum Kerry and dad Adam with, from left, Glenn, Torin and Corey.
They said they hope his story will help other parents avoid their own tragedies.

Aboyne Academy pupil Corey, whose mum and dad Kerry and Adam described as a “funny and kind” boy with a “cracking sense of humour”, died on October 24.

Mrs Liversedge said the young athlete, who competed in swimming at a national level and climbed more than 40 Munros, was troubled by the impact of lockdown on his daily life.

And if it were not for the mental health implications of the pandemic restrictions, his father said “we would still have our son here today”.

‘Outpouring of love’
Following Corey’s death his family launched a fundraiser to generate cash for an environmental charity, a cause the 16-year-old cared deeply about, as well as Men Matter Scotland – a charity dedicated to helping men deal with their internal struggles.

Thanks to an “outpouring of love” from people whose lives Corey had touched, the online fundraiser has already generated more than £10,000 – far exceeding the original target of £500 set by the family.

His mother said Corey’s two brothers, Torin and Glenn, have also received a great deal of support.

© Supplied
Corey was an accomplished swimmer. Photograph provided by Liversedge family.
The teacher at Aboyne Academy said: “The outpouring of love we have had from swimmers, pupils, teachers and everyone has been incredible.

“The house is full of cards and flowers, and every single little bit has helped. People have shown us how much they loved him.

“We had a beautiful tribute to Corey from the Munro Bagpiper, a piper who pipes all across Scotland, who sent us a beautiful tribute of him performing in Skye.

“I only wish Corey had known. I just don’t think he realised about how many people loved him.

“If he only had a little inkling of what people thought of him, I think he’d be here today. And if it was not for Covid-19, he would definitely be here with us today.”

She continued: “He spent a lot of his time not doing as much activity as he normally did, and I think the time away from his friends was one of the hardest bits.


“He’s not one for Facebook or WhatsApp or anything like that, so he didn’t have that. So that break in the connection with his mates was tough.”

‘Corey didn’t get the chance to live the life he should have had’
Her husband, also a teacher in Deeside, said: “He was an intelligent boy who was functioning well, and things were going okay prior to the lockdown.

“Everyone dealt with Covid-19 in different ways.

“I can say with 100% certainty that we would still have our son today if it had not been for lockdown.”

He added: “We just didn’t see it coming at all. Corey didn’t get the chance to live the life he should have had.

“He did do a lot with his life, he did amazing things, he’s been up mountains, he’s been skiing, he was such an accomplished swimmer.

“It’s the why, that’s the question. We will never know the why.

Corey’s mum has urged other parents to “be careful with your precious children”, and said the fundraiser is a “glimmer of hope” for the family at “the end of a very dark tunnel”.

“Somebody needs to stand up and shout about this,” she said.

“The teenage years are really tough. Kids are prickly and one second they love you and the next they can push you away. But tell them you love them every night, and tell them that you’re proud of them and keep those lines of communication open.

“Encourage them to talk — if not to you, then to their friends, teachers, or Childline, or anybody.

“They just need to let it out, and not internalise things they can’t understand as a kid.

“It’s not just children with diagnosed mental health conditions — it can happen to any child, and Corey was any child.”

 

[Jamesrob637]

Well that is your opinion. But if they are afraid to be openly pro lockdown is it really because they are in a minority or is it because they are led to believe they are in a minority ?. Or is it for some other reason ?.

What we can be sure of is that lockdown is not popular - why would it be. It is like going to the dentist - nobody wants to go but some feel it necessary to endure. So no lockdown is always going to be a desire. In some ways I was surprised society put up with lockdown last time. But seeing the effect on the NHS was what did it for me. I really hope we do not go beyond that level of proof again. BUT it is a costly thing and I would have dearly loved to see the tiered system being used for longer so we could really see if it worked. But the stakes were probably perceived as too high.

A few I know don't mind this second lockdown to bring infection rates down IF there were a guarantee that hospitality will definitely reopen on the morning of 03 Dec.

 

[Huntergreed]

A few I know don't mind this second lockdown to bring infection rates down IF there were a guarantee that hospitality will definitely reopen on the morning of 03 Dec.

It seems that they want to stick to this promise, however if it doesn’t work then it’ll put them in a difficult position, as they’ll have to admit it didn’t work.

 

[adc82140]

There must have been scenes like this up and down the country with people thinking maybe they won't get chance to purchase Christmas gifts. Its also a good indicator that there may be yet another surge in virus cases as we start the lockdown.


CJ

Doubt it. There has been no evidence anywhere of a cluster being traced back to a shop.

 

[DustyBin]

As with all polls! But checking the poll, respondents were asked a reasonably open question:

I think we can take that as a reasonable indication of baseline opinion.

The question itself may appear open, but as Theresa May pointed out yesterday in parliament, we’re being manipulated. The government is deciding what it wants to do and is then finding statistics to support it, rather than looking at the statistics and then deciding what to do. She made the point very well actually and I don’t generally rate her at all. Is it not obvious that this is what is happening?

In terms of general support for the lockdown I can’t see where it’s coming from. It’s obvious what the consensus is on here but I don’t know anybody who supports it. My work colleagues are all (minimum) degree educated and professionally qualified people earning a good living, none of whom support it and openly question the narrative. I deal with construction companies on a daily basis and the directors of these companies absolutely do not support it as it’s bad for business. On site I like to chat with the lads (and lasses, on the rare occasion I encounter one!), that’s everybody from the site manager to the labourers and none of them support it as it threatens their employment. My GF has a senior HR role in a very large company and she doesn’t support it due to concerns over the economy and her employees mental health (she’s had to deal with some very difficult situations lately including an attempted suicide). At the boxing gym I go to I mix with an interesting group of people. I know professional fighters who’ve had their means to earn a living severely restricted or removed altogether, with careers put on hold; needless to say they’ve long since had enough. At the other end of the spectrum there are young lads who are simply trying to get their lives back on track having been in trouble with the law and find the gym provides discipline and a sense of purpose. They all come from very deprived backgrounds but want to better themselves and need all the help they can get and lockdowns are extremely damaging for them. Finally, my mother and her husband (stepfather I suppose!) are both well into their 70’s and are generally as compliant as you can get. They respect authority, the law etc. but absolutely do not support this lockdown. They want to enjoy their remaining years and worry about the impact on younger people.

That’s a decent cross section of society, with zero support for lockdowns. I’m not claiming it’s representative of society as a whole, but nor is it a ‘bubble’. I just find it hard to believe that so many people support such a destructive measure, and if they do I’d question whether they fully understand the facts and the implications.

 

[Yew]

Is there not enough evidence that this guy is a fool of the highest order and some of his behaviour seems to be bordering on fraud. Why are they keeping him on?

I think his experiences with Ebola have coloured his view of things in a way that is not appropriate for dealing with a significantly less serious and easier to spread illness.

 

[Crossover]

I have said before, but will say again, I was one of those who, on the last outing, supported the restrictions and thought they were for the best, on balance. This time round I am significantly more skeptical after seeing the numbers (and being told by the Government of the exponential growth, which just is not happening according to the stats!

As for travel, I thought the roads were a little quieter this morning (there was a lane shut on the M62 due to a stranded lorry - on an ordinary day it would have caused tailbacks but completely plain sailing today....that said, it may have been similar even for the last couple of months) but still plenty vehicles out and about. Will see how things look on my journey home this evening