• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Lockdown effects now killing/harming more people than Covid

Status
Not open for further replies.

Getbacktowork

Member
Joined
5 Oct 2022
Messages
20
Location
Newcastle
Clearly there are concerning numbers of non-covid excess deaths, however there is little evidence to attribute these directly to lockdowns. I have urged more thorough investigations into the cause(s) of these deaths. The vast majority are cardiovascular deaths and I hope not to be in breach of any guidelines in posting this, but I am concerned these are related to vaccinations. Studies from Germany, Israel and Florida have suggested significant increased risk of sudden cardiac death and other abnormalities in the under 40s.

For what it is worth I am not (or certainly was not) anti-vax and have had two myself.

As for the original lockdown measures. I do feel that these were fairly successful. There is a plethora of evidence in the public domain to suggest that no intervention in March 2020 would have resulted in many more deaths than we have seen in total due to Covid to date, due to no immunity and an overwhelmed NHS.

Unfortunately schools were very early on in the pandemic shown by SAGE to be the primary cause of spread and hence measures simply had to be introduced in this regard. To suggest that schools and education was not prioritised by the government is a rather large myth. Please note that, during the second lockdown, schools closed for only 2 months, in comparison with indoor hospitality for over 6 months. There was no sector closed for less time than education was, despite it pushing the 'r' rate higher than any other sector of society.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
11,145
Location
Redcar
Clearly there are concerning numbers of non-covid excess deaths, however there is little evidence to attribute these directly to lockdowns. I have urged more thorough investigations into the cause(s) of these deaths.

Do you not think the fact that the majority of the population struggled to get access to basic healthcare for much of 2020/21 might have something to do with it? Plenty of stories are already emerging about avoidable deaths, i'd bet my mortgage that a staggering number of people pass away in the next 24-36 months from conditions that could have been diagnosed and treated during that period.
 

Getbacktowork

Member
Joined
5 Oct 2022
Messages
20
Location
Newcastle
Do you not think the fact that the majority of the population struggled to get access to basic healthcare for much of 2020/21 might have something to do with it? Plenty of stories are already emerging about avoidable deaths, i'd bet my mortgage that a staggering number of people pass away in the next 24-36 months from conditions that could have been diagnosed and treated during that period.
Purely personal perspective and there may be variations by geography. But I do not feel there was a deterioration in treatment and diagnosis in my local area. I was treated for a heart condition in the first wave and had an unrelated minor operation in the peak of the second wave.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,745
The worrying thing is that things would have been a lot worse had Labour been in power.

I do worry we would have been along the lines of Germany, given Starmer's rhetoric, but I guess we will never know how much of that was playing politics. But I certainly don't trust labour at all when it comes to COVID policy.
 

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,605
I do worry we would have been along the lines of Germany, given Starmer's rhetoric, but I guess we will never know how much of that was playing politics. But I certainly don't trust labour at all when it comes to COVID policy.
I don't trust them either
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,965
Location
Ely
Do you not think the fact that the majority of the population struggled to get access to basic healthcare for much of 2020/21 might have something to do with it?

Or indeed 2022 - try getting a doctor's appointment even now! And if you do, it isn't likely to be face-to-face, which means all manner of things can be missed that a doctor seeing you in person might notice. And even if it is in person, you may still be asked to wear a mask, which means various facial clues may be missed.

That said, there may well be more than one thing going on here (and probably is). To quote a tweet this week from the Surgeon-General of Florida:

https://twitter.com/FLSurgeonGen/status/1579444252790394885
Finally, is it really that hard to imagine that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines that increase myocarditis in young men by 10x, 20x, or 30x (see Karlstad et al,
JAMA Cardiology, 2022) also increase the risk of cardiac death in that age group?
Of course it's not, and we all know that.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
20,442
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Purely personal perspective and there may be variations by geography. But I do not feel there was a deterioration in treatment and diagnosis in my local area. I was treated for a heart condition in the first wave and had an unrelated minor operation in the peak of the second wave.

Reports of being fobbed off by GP surgeries in particular are a little too widespread to say it was a purely localised problem. Certainly in my town all the GP surgeries well and truly put the drawbridge up and closed the shutters, and are still to some extent making access difficult.

As an aside, I was going through the step count on my phone last night. Rather interestingly, my physical activity dropped significantly in 2020, rose in 2021 but only in 2022 has essentially returned to 2019 levels. I can only really attribute this to the Covid response, as I can see no other reason for it being down. I am normally pretty active with outdoor activities.

I think it’s unfortunately pretty much now baked-in that the next couple of years are going to see excess deaths continuing. What is even more lamentable is that many of these are likely to have been preventable had they been diagnosed in time.
 

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,826
Location
Leeds
We are talking averages, and I have no doubt at all that the general level of care went down during Covid. I heard that from so many friends and colleagues.

My doctor’s surgery, and subsequent rapid referral and its handling by the hospital of what could have been quite a serious thing I had (or fortunately didn’t in the end) was magnificent. I think I was so lucky when I hear other stories on here and from workmates.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
10,508
Location
Cheshire
Clearly there are concerning numbers of non-covid excess deaths, however there is little evidence to attribute these directly to lockdowns. I have urged more thorough investigations into the cause(s) of these deaths. The vast majority are cardiovascular deaths and I hope not to be in breach of any guidelines in posting this, but I am concerned these are related to vaccinations. Studies from Germany, Israel and Florida have suggested significant increased risk of sudden cardiac death and other abnormalities in the under 40s.

For what it is worth I am not (or certainly was not) anti-vax and have had two myself.

As for the original lockdown measures. I do feel that these were fairly successful. There is a plethora of evidence in the public domain to suggest that no intervention in March 2020 would have resulted in many more deaths than we have seen in total due to Covid to date, due to no immunity and an overwhelmed NHS.

Unfortunately schools were very early on in the pandemic shown by SAGE to be the primary cause of spread and hence measures simply had to be introduced in this regard. To suggest that schools and education was not prioritised by the government is a rather large myth. Please note that, during the second lockdown, schools closed for only 2 months, in comparison with indoor hospitality for over 6 months. There was no sector closed for less time than education was, despite it pushing the 'r' rate higher than any other sector of society.
You know over the last two and a half years, the issues caused by lockdown measures have been discussed at length on these forums. Perhaps you might like to spend a bit of time reading through some of the threads on the subject first before instantly dismissing the idea that lockdown measures had few effects as you claim? Personally speaking I could point you at dozens of people I know who had a terrible experience with the NHS thanks to the restrictions imposed, some of whom could have ended up in serious trouble were it not for them pushing practitioners into action.

And let's be quite blunt here, one of the first measures taken was to tip thousands of elderly people out of the healthcare system and into care homes, which in itself almost certainly led to the earlier deaths of many, be it covid or the loss of provision of basic healthcare services. That alone goes against what you are arguing here.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,745
We are talking averages, and I have no doubt at all that the general level of care went down during Covid. I heard that from so many friends and colleagues.

My doctor’s surgery, and subsequent rapid referral and its handling by the hospital of what could have been quite a serious thing I had (or fortunately didn’t in the end) was magnificent. I think I was so lucky when I hear other stories on here and from workmates.

From my anecdotal evidence, it seems for emergencies the care is very good and very rapid.

But if you have a niggling problem you want to be checked out, that's very difficult. Unfortunately, many serious conditions start off as "small niggling symptoms" that should be caught early.
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,965
Location
Ely
My GP surgery now had a big popup message every time you go to their website, I guess because lots of people have been complaining.

1666018469443.png

I'm still not entirely sure how an online service can be at any sort of 'safety limit', let alone why it can only be turned on for an hour or two each weekday morning as opposed to being open 24 hours a day [1], but to me that strongly implies they don't have sufficient capacity to deal with their patients, and I'm 100% convinced that some people aren't getting the medical care they need as a result.

[1] the terms of use explicitly say 'The service can be used at any time of day', which was obviously the original intention.
 

cuccir

Established Member
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
3,695
Clearly there are concerning numbers of non-covid excess deaths, however there is little evidence to attribute these directly to lockdowns. I have urged more thorough investigations into the cause(s) of these deaths. The vast majority are cardiovascular deaths and I hope not to be in breach of any guidelines in posting this, but I am concerned these are related to vaccinations. Studies from Germany, Israel and Florida have suggested significant increased risk of sudden cardiac death and other abnormalities in the under 40s.
Is it not more, or at least equally, plausible that these deaths are due to the impact of Covid infections? I had been suspicious of it being vaccination-related at one point but the more I read, the more convinced I am that these may be the result of damage to the heart acquired during a Covid infection. We know that the infection does attack and damage organs. This is not likely to be due to failure to seek healthcare as these are heart attacks in otherwise healthy adults who did not have any symptoms before hand.

Any research would be very difficult to do because we are in a situation where these deaths remain very rare, and where both vaccination and having had Covid once rates are estimated at over 90%. And of course, it is also possible that both are happening: that both Covid-19 and the vaccination increase risk of heart problems in some way.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,516
Location
Yorkshire
Is it not more, or at least equally, plausible that these deaths are due to the impact of Covid infections? I had been suspicious of it being vaccination-related at one point but the more I read, the more convinced I am that these may be the result of damage to the heart acquired during a Covid infection. We know that the infection does attack and damage organs. This is not likely to be due to failure to seek healthcare as these are heart attacks in otherwise healthy adults who did not have any symptoms before hand.

Any research would be very difficult to do because we are in a situation where these deaths remain very rare, and where both vaccination and having had Covid once rates are estimated at over 90%. And of course, it is also possible that both are happening: that both Covid-19 and the vaccination increase risk of heart problems in some way.
I agree that those who try to attribute the rise in excess deaths to vaccines are barking up the wrong tree, but I don't see any good evidence that it is Covid infections, rather than lockdowns, restrictions etc that have caused it.

For example I have suffered ill health due to the health service refusing to see me in a timely manner and taking almost a year for the right specialist to see me; once I saw the right person, they saw the problem simply by watching me walk for 30 seconds! I am far from alone in this.
 

cuccir

Established Member
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
3,695
I agree that those who try to attribute the rise in excess deaths to vaccines are barking up the wrong tree, but I don't see any good evidence that it is Covid infections, rather than lockdowns, restrictions etc that have caused it.

For example I have suffered ill health due to the health service refusing to see me in a timely manner and taking almost a year for the right specialist to see me; once I saw the right person, they saw the problem simply by watching me walk for 30 seconds! I am far from alone in this.

Oh, I agree entirely with the broader rise in excess deaths - yes, those are attributable to lockdown effects mainly. We can disagree (and I suspect we might!) over whether it is likely that there are more or fewer deaths than would have happened had there not been lockdowns (that is, when we discount those deaths from Covid-19 that the lockdowns prevented) but yes I wouldn't want to deny that we are now seeing the legacy of lockdowns.

However the specific issue Getbacktowork rose was heart problems in active under-40s. 2021 saw a small increase in heart attack deaths in under 40s eg in England and Wales it went up by 13% among 15-40 year olds, though is still in small numbers (129 to 146). There have been a few high profile sudden deaths of people from heart problems, and the suggestion has been that these could be vaccine-caused. It would seem to be harder to explain these specific detahs by lockdown effects, as these aren't cases where people have failed to seek/receive healthcare; they are sudden deaths in otherwise healthy people who would not have engaged with the health system. My suggestion would be that these specific deaths are more likely to be caused by the effects of infections, and I don't see the plausible lockdown impact here - though again, I completely see it for the majority of excess deaths we're seeing in 2022.
 

takno

Verified Rep - Traksy
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,602
Oh, I agree entirely with the broader rise in excess deaths - yes, those are attributable to lockdown effects mainly. We can disagree (and I suspect we might!) over whether it is likely that there are more or fewer deaths than would have happened had there not been lockdowns (that is, when we discount those deaths from Covid-19 that the lockdowns prevented) but yes I wouldn't want to deny that we are now seeing the legacy of lockdowns.

However the specific issue Getbacktowork rose was heart problems in active under-40s. 2021 saw a small increase in heart attack deaths in under 40s eg in England and Wales it went up by 13% among 15-40 year olds, though is still in small numbers (129 to 146). There have been a few high profile sudden deaths of people from heart problems, and the suggestion has been that these could be vaccine-caused. It would seem to be harder to explain these specific detahs by lockdown effects, as these aren't cases where people have failed to seek/receive healthcare; they are sudden deaths in otherwise healthy people who would not have engaged with the health system. My suggestion would be that these specific deaths are more likely to be caused by the effects of infections, and I don't see the plausible lockdown impact here - though again, I completely see it for the majority of excess deaths we're seeing in 2022.
Reduced access to exercise could be a factor. It's also worth nothing that pretty much anything which can be caused by a Covid infection can also be caused by non-Covid infections. Since we've seen plenty of evidence of people having more-severe-than-expected reactions to other viruses as a result of a period of not being exposed. The explanations which result from lockdown are at least as plausible as the ones which don't.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,927
Location
First Class
I caught this on TV yesterday morning, but for those who didn’t Mervyn King believes lockdowns, and the associated economic policies, led us to where we are now. This may seem obvious, but few will admit it. Unfortunately we’re closer to the beginning of this particular “lockdown effect” than the end, and the situation looks set to get worse before it gets better.

This morning the BBC hosted a current Tory leadership contender and the leader of the opposition on Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg. Yet the most insightful comments came from one of the panel members: Lord Mervyn King, former governor of the Bank of England between 2003 and 2013. Asked by Kuenssberg about the narrative that’s doing the rounds with some Truss supporters – that markets ‘bullied’ Truss out of her plans and out of office – King offered up a robust response and a clear explanation of what had gone so badly wrong:

“Markets are not in charge. Governments and central banks are. Markets respond to the announcements made by government and central banks. And central banks have lost control of inflation, government lost control of the public finance; not surprising that markets respond to that.
“I think all central banks in the west, interestingly, made the same mistake. And during Covid, when the economy was actually contracting because of lockdown, central banks decided it was a good time to print a lot of money. That was a mistake. That led to inflation. We had too much money chasing too few goods. And the result was inflation. That was predictable. It was predicted, and it happened. So that’s one problem we have to try to get out of. But the public finances both in the United States and the United Kingdom were not put on a sustainable track. And markets responded to that.

King’s comments succinctly tapped into several important factors that led to the mini-Budget blow-up and the economic crisis we’re in. He noted the extent to which this is an international story: that the UK is not the only country experiencing higher interest rates or borrowing costs, as the economic climate is changing for everyone (albeit it’s happened faster in Britain, with far more international attention).

His comments on central banks were rather pointed, too. Throughout the interview King kept making it clear that mistakes had been made by all central banks, though it was obvious he was including Bank of England’s decision to move so slowly on inflation, lambasting the decision to print as much money as it did. While the cost of schemes like furlough – roughly £70bn in total – did require the Bank and Treasury to work hand-in-hand, it has been a point for contention for a while now just how much money printing took place (the Bank printed more money in the first year of Covid than it did in the decade leading up to it).

Not only did the Bank oversee this huge increase in the money supply; government policy saw cash flow into the real economy (into people’s bank accounts through furlough, support schemes, etc), yet central banks played into the popular denial that none of this would have inflationary consequences. At one point in the show this morning King placed blame on the economics profession more widely: 'If I were to blame anyone,’ he said, ‘I would blame the economics profession for encouraging [central banks] to print money [like] it didn’t matter.’

Crucially King also underlined that markets are not political in the way party politics are. They are not responding to particular tax cuts or spending pledge that they don’t agree with – they are responding to the sustainability of financial plans, the ‘sustainable track,’ as King called it. The mini-Budget was more evidence that fiscal discipline was no longer being taken so seriously after the pandemic, at a time when public debt has skyrocketed and deficits in peacetime hit record highs. It appeared to be a tipping point, which all politicians are having to grapple with now.

But perhaps the biggest impact of King’s appearance this morning was not simply what he said, but how his contributions framed the series of political interviews Kuenssberg was hosting. King was warning this morning about the ‘more difficult’ decision to come, including austerity and possibly ‘significantly higher taxes’ to fund public services, both to get the books in order but also to avoid passing on a staggering bill to future generations.

His comments echoed as Penny Mordaunt, once again a Tory leadership hopeful, refused to comment on any public policy, economic and otherwise, insisting that she would ‘not being drawn into the detail’ on decisions that presumably she would need to start making in less than a week, were she to become leader and prime minister. This included not talking about how she might reduce the UK’s deficit, which is thought to be required to regain market confidence and get things back on track – no doubt in part due to the serious lack of popularity spending cuts will have at a time when the cost of living crunch is worsening.

‘You heard from Penny Mordaunt,’ King pointed out, ‘we will probably hear in a minute from Keir Starmer, that public expenditure isn’t going down, if anything it will go up. Therefore taxes will have to rise to fill the gap which is there at present. That doesn’t make a very happy picture for the next few years.’

Indeed, that’s exactly what happened when the Labour leader sat down in the hot seat, refusing to be pulled in on discussion of spending cuts, while insisting that some areas needed a funding boost. Starmer singled out healthcare, declaring ‘of course the NHS needs more money’ (he followed up later with vague talk of reform as well). With healthcare spending on track to account for almost 45 per cent of day-to-day government spending in the next few years, at some point Starmer will have to lay out just how high he thinks that number should go, and where exactly the money might come from.

But for now, it simply underlined King’s point that these are difficult times indeed. Very few politicians are ready to discuss the remedies publicly, nor are they prepared to seriously discuss spending cuts. Several examples of this played out in front of him, and us, on the BBC this morning.

 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
I don't trust them either

By the time they get in (assuming they do, which seems more likely than not), and assuming it's around May 2024, I doubt Covid will be an issue uppermost in people's minds.

Even if Sunak messes up in true Truss style (not beyond the realms of possibility) and we get an election earlier than that, let's say next spring, I doubt Covid will be an issue then either.

Other issues are dominating the political agenda now.
 

greyman42

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2017
Messages
5,368
By the time they get in (assuming they do, which seems more likely than not), and assuming it's around May 2024, I doubt Covid will be an issue uppermost in people's minds.

Even if Sunak messes up in true Truss style (not beyond the realms of possibility) and we get an election earlier than that, let's say next spring, I doubt Covid will be an issue then either.

Other issues are dominating the political agenda now.
But if another virus pops up in the future, they will put the country straight into a lockdown worse than the original one. That is a risk not worth taking in my opinion.
 

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,605
But if another virus pops up in the future, they will put the country straight into a lockdown worse than the original one. That is a risk not worth taking in my opinion.
I agree though I would have said when not if
 

Cdd89

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
1,789
But if another virus pops up in the future, they will put the country straight into a lockdown worse than the original one. That is a risk not worth taking in my opinion.
Assuming they weren’t taking a pro-Lockdown position purely for political purposes.

As an example, Labour wanted to ban all flights (ie “hotel quarantine for all”) in early 2021; that would have been such an incredibly damaging and pointless policy, even if superficially ‘popular’, that I can’t believe it would have been floated if they were in government.

That said, I agree, it’s a risk. Anyone concerned about lockdowns (to the exclusion of all other factors) would be mad to vote for them, knowing their position through the pandemic.
 

Sorcerer

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
2,203
Location
Liverpool
Realistically though how likely is another pandemic in the near future? Because honestly, I think Labour's position throughout the pandemic is irrelevant at this point, and the country can't afford another five years of Tory rule after the next election, so with Labour being the only credible alternative under our voting system, I don't believe that any potential pandemic responses should be considered. I say this as someone who was more heavily impacted by restrictions than by the virus itself as well.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
Realistically though how likely is another pandemic in the near future? Because honestly, I think Labour's position throughout the pandemic is irrelevant at this point, and the country can't afford another five years of Tory rule after the next election, so with Labour being the only credible alternative under our voting system, I don't believe that any potential pandemic responses should be considered. I say this as someone who was more heavily impacted by restrictions than by the virus itself as well.

This.

I agree that hotel quarantine was irrational nonsense (it assumes Covid had a much lower incidence in the UK than neighbouring countries, which was patently nonsense). But, for the majority of the time, we are not in a pandemic situation.

What percentage of time in the past 100 years has there been a pandemic serious enough to be a concern? 1918/9, 1958, 1968 and Covid - i.e. pretty small.

I won't explain other factors in here as they are off-topic (cough... Liz Truss... tax cuts for the rich... spending cuts... the B-word... cough) but I firmly believe that non-pandemic issues will be much more important in deciding which way to vote in the next election. That and the affront to real democracy which would occur if we had almost 20 consecutive years with the Tories in power.

Furthermore it seems to be increasingly the consensus that the lockdowns were too severe and too prolonged, and have contributed towards the current economic situation, so I suspect that, unless the illness is significantly worse, we won't act in the same way in future - irrespective of who is in power.
 
Last edited:

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,605
Furthermore it seems to be increasingly the consensus that the lockdowns were too severe and too prolonged, and have contributed towards the current economic situation, so I suspect that, unless the illness is significantly worse, we won't act in the same way in future - irrespective of who is in power.
Whilst I agree the lockdowns were a big contributory factor to the current economic situation I simply don't trust any of the politicians to run a bath at the moment let alone the country, so while I hope we never overreact like that again I don't have enough faith in them to believe that they won't
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,745
Just because another pandemic isn't likely, it doesn't mean I don't want people who had the mindset to confine us in our homes, track our daily lives via QR codes and severely restrict our movements in power. Just because there might not be another pandemic situation, doesn't mean there won't be other reasons for this level of authoritanism. And why should we "reward" the party with our votes that only wanted harsher restrictions that would have made the current situation worse?

Like many who will never stomach voting Tory after the Thatcher years, I doubt I will vote the top two parties for a long long time after the COVID nonsense.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,927
Location
First Class
Just because another pandemic isn't likely, it doesn't mean I don't want people who had the mindset to confine us in our homes, track our daily lives via QR codes and severely restrict our movements in power. Just because there might not be another pandemic situation, doesn't mean there won't be other reasons for this level of authoritanism. And why should we "reward" the party with our votes that only wanted harsher restrictions that would have made the current situation worse?

Like many who will never stomach voting Tory after the Thatcher years, I doubt I will vote the top two parties for a long long time after the COVID nonsense.

This is where some people are complacent in my opinion. What we saw was more than just a botched pandemic response; it marked a fundamental change in the relationship between the state and the populace. As Neil Ferguson (in)famously said:

It’s a communist one-party state (China), we said. We couldn’t get away with it in Europe, we thought… and then Italy did it. And we realised we could.

I believe it's more likely than not that another "crisis" will come along (climate change being the odds-on favourite) which will "necessitate" an authoritarian response, and unfortunately the precedent has been set.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,745
This is where some people are complacent in my opinion. What we saw was more than just a botched pandemic response; it marked a fundamental change in the relationship between the state and the populace. As Neil Ferguson (in)famously said:



I believe it's more likely than not that another "crisis" will come along (climate change being the odds-on favourite) which will "necessitate" an authoritarian response, and unfortunately the precedent has been set.

Exactly. We thought we'd never be mad enough to copy China's lockdowns, but we did, admittedly in a watered down form. But the opposition benches clamoured for months to go stronger and harder, with MPs even calling out people publicly and belittling them for (rightly) questioning the whole process (obviously this goes for both sides of the house though).

Currently many think we'd never be mad enough to copy China's social credit system. I'm really not so sure now. As you say, Climate could be the reason it starts to be brought in.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
6,196
Furthermore it seems to be increasingly the consensus that the lockdowns were too severe and too prolonged, and have contributed towards the current economic situation, so I suspect that, unless the illness is significantly worse, we won't act in the same way in future - irrespective of who is in power.
I'm not sure I agree. You only have to look at the way health and safety has gone and the fact that death has to be prevented at any cost, even if the measures make life intolerable. I'm pretty sure that the response to the next pandemic will be even more crazy.
 

takno

Verified Rep - Traksy
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,602
I'm not sure I agree. You only have to look at the way health and safety has gone and the fact that death has to be prevented at any cost, even if the measures make life intolerable. I'm pretty sure that the response to the next pandemic will be even more crazy.
The counter to this is that deaths overall were measurably not really prevented, and the price was paid very directly and by everybody. Even when they are illusory, the positive impact of general health and safety measures can be visualised, and more importantly the cost is usually borne by businesses rather than individual people.

I think the whole political class in the UK is generally still very much in denial about the damage of lockdowns, although there is a growing in wider society, as people start to do normal things again and realise how awful that period was. The UK political class tends to be weird and out of step with normal people in a lot of ways though - you only have to look at the odd comments from across the spectrum on Cannabis laws to realise that. I don't think that's the preserve of any particular party - the SNP were a nightmare in Scotland, the Conservatives were a nightmare in England, Labour were a nightmare in Wales, and in most cases everybody except the Liberal Democrats were extremely actively egging them on.

What is reassuring is the growing sense of recognition in a lot of European countries that they achieved nothing at enormous cost. Everybody was blinded by "the science", but "the science" only gets to shout fire in a crowded cinema once. The groundswell of people who were convinced by the "3 weeks to flatten the curve" first time around won't automatically fall into line next time, and without their tacit support it won't be a no-brainer for all the mainstream political parties to fall into line.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,419
Location
Yorks
It seems that China are now doing a sterling job of undermining the case for lockdowns, so maybe that will rub off.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top