Local stations on busy main lines (that don't get the service they should)

[tbtc]

Rather than divert another thread off topic, I thought this worthy of its own subject:

Which stations are there on busy main lines which don't get sufficient trains stopping at them (because it'd be too much disruption to longer distance/ faster services)?

Five off the top of my head:

• Mussleburgh (Edinburgh to Newcastle line)
• Cramlington (Edinburgh to Newcastle line)
• Chester le Street (Newcastle to York line)
• Batley (Leeds to Manchester line)
• Hazel Grove (Sheffield to Manchester line)

In each of these cases, I think that there's sufficient demand for a much more frequent train service (and often a busy parallel bus service, as an indicator of demand), but the potential disruption to longer distance services means that there's currently little chance of more stops.

 

[Spaceflower]

Sunderland.

 

[tbtc]

Sunderland.

What currently passes through Sunderland without stopping?

Whilst there are plenty of stations that could have more trains (and Sunderland has certainly lost out in recent years), I'm thinking specifically of stations that already see a lot of trains passing through but not enough of them actually stopping.

 

[gordonthemoron]

cramlington has morpeth to newcastle trains. why would EC or XC stop at that dump?

 

[anme]

cramlington has morpeth to newcastle trains. why would EC or XC stop at that dump?

Good point!
On an unrelated note, I have always felt that Bletchley has far too many trains. One or two per week would be fine. Who wants to stop at that dump?

 

[tsr]

Balham comes to mind. It's a fairly useful interchange with the Northern Line - especially during daytime Off-Peak hours, when it's not usually overcrowded - but no good for those using Fast services travelling to most BML destinations.

 

[northwichcat]

[*]Hazel Grove (Sheffield to Manchester line)

Really?

Morning peak departures for Manchester from Hazel Grove are:
07:00, 07:22, 07:27, 07:48, 08:01, 08:17, 08:22, 08:32

Evening peak departures for Hazel Grove from Manchester are:
16:51, 16:58, 17:22 (fast), 17:23 (all stops), 17:52, 18:21

That level of peak time service is probably partly why Hazel Grove's patronage is good. Also with it being close to the TfGM border and having a more frequent service than other nearby stations some people drive to Hazel Grove instead of their local station for the purpose of reaching Manchester.

Analysis of extending the Hazel Grove terminator to Buxton, Chinley or Sheffield has been looked at and it hasn't resulted in a strong business case for a direct Sheffield service from Hazel Grove as most of the demand from Hazel Grove is for Stockport or Manchester.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Ore sees a lack of services to and from Ashford International. It's not mainline and it's not exactly starved of services, but damn it, it'd be useful for me!

Good point!
On an unrelated note, I have always felt that Bletchley has far too many trains. One or two per week would be fine. Who wants to stop at that dump?

Quite a lot of commuters in both directions, local passengers who wish to avoid using the buses or a taxi to get to CMK, passengers wishing to transfer from the Marston Vale line onto services to London Euston or the Midlands/North, and visitors to Bletchley Park, stadium:mk, et cetera.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maidenhead and Slough.
Watford Junction.
Welwyn GC.
St Albans City.
There's a pattern here...
Big stations, large/wealthy catchments, few long-distance trains (if any).
If we had more high-acceleration 110mph EMUs maybe things would change.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Good point!
On an unrelated note, I have always felt that Bletchley has far too many trains. One or two per week would be fine. Who wants to stop at that dump?

well Virgin don't stop, there's loads of passengers for LM & Southern and I'm a Geordie so I'm allowed to call Cramlington a dump, Bletchley's not much better though pet

 

[sheff1]

Analysis of extending the Hazel Grove terminator to Buxton, Chinley or Sheffield has been looked at and it hasn't resulted in a strong business case for a direct Sheffield service from Hazel Grove as most of the demand from Hazel Grove is for Stockport or Manchester.

A stopping service to Sheffield would be unattractive, but a fast service might not be. As you say, Hazel Grove is something of a railhead already and could attract people who do not wish to drive into central Stockport. In the opposite direction there is strong custom for the fasts at Dore & Totley to/from Manchester even though the main demand* is towards Sheffield

As has been discussed before, Belper northwards is a market not served by rail.

I suggest Congleton is also deserving of a better 'fast' service although, admittedly, the station is not ideally located.

* Primarily By car, due to the poor train frequency. If/when the Chesterfield line platforms are re-instated I could envisage much higher rail user into Sheffield if the frequency was right.

 

[JamesRowden]

Chelsfield, just a 2tph off-peak metro service at a station on the edge of built-up London. I think that it doesn't get any more services off-peak because of the mainline services that also run along the double track section between Orpington and Sevenoaks.

 

[asylumxl]

Maidenhead and Slough.
Watford Junction.
Welwyn GC.
St Albans City.
There's a pattern here...
Big stations, large/wealthy catchments, few long-distance trains (if any).
If we had more high-acceleration 110mph EMUs maybe things would change.

Actually I would say the pattern is that they're all in Hertfordshire. They all receive good levels of service though, particularly Watford Junction and St Albans.

St Albans receives:

• 4tph Bedord - Brighton (Non-stop to St Pancras)
• 4tph Brighton to Bedford (Non-stop from St Pancras)
• 2tph Luton to Sutton (all stations)
• 2tph Sutton to Luton (all stations)
• 2tph St Albans to Sutton (all stations)
• 2tph Sutton to St Albans (all stations)

That's 8tph in each direction which I certainly don't think qualifies as bad service.

 

[andy19_64]

The one that gets me is the Southern Arun Valley service on a Sunday. There is only 1tph and you have the beautiful tourist town of Arundel. i would imagine they would get far more people visiting the town if there was at least 2tph. you could also include Amberley in that as well.

 

[jopsuk]

in several of these cases, it's down to capacity- if these lines had an extra pair of tracks better local services could be provided.

Welwyn though? Controversial opinion time. I'd cut out Stevnage stops from all East Coast services, in favour of an impoved FCC GN semi-fast to Peterborough and using that as a feeder-hub with most EC services stopping, conecting to GN electrics, Ely via March etc.

 

[Buttsy]

Maidenhead and Slough.
Watford Junction.
Welwyn GC.
St Albans City.
There's a pattern here...
Big stations, large/wealthy catchments, few long-distance trains (if any).
If we had more high-acceleration 110mph EMUs maybe things would change.

Actually I would say the pattern is that they're all in Hertfordshire. They all receive good levels of service though, particularly Watford Junction and St Albans.

St Albans receives:

• 4tph Bedord - Brighton (Non-stop to St Pancras)
• 4tph Brighton to Bedford (Non-stop from St Pancras)
• 2tph Luton to Sutton (all stations)
• 2tph Sutton to Luton (all stations)
• 2tph St Albans to Sutton (all stations)
• 2tph Sutton to St Albans (all stations)

That's 8tph in each direction which I certainly don't think qualifies as bad service.

I hasten to pedantically point out that Slough and Maidenhead are in Berkshire, not Hertfordshire...

 

[Starmill]

I certainly think that Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite could be contenders for this one! As probably could Dronfield, and possibly Dore & Totley as well.

It wouldn't surprise me if Normanton is suffering a bit from this too, and possibly some out of Elsecar, Chapeltown or Wombwell? Maybe Walsden too.

Ulleskelf and Church Fenton may not have a case for much more than they get sadly But what about Thorne South, Crowle or Althorpe? Or even Stallingborough, Healing, Great Coates or Grimsby Docks?

Okay some of those get a poorer service than they might for other reasons actually (lack of stock, train length or it's judged that current provision is actually adequate), but they are definetly examples of places where more trains which pass could stop.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not sure I agree with the inclusion of Batley in the OP. Towards Leeds it has 2tph during the day with one from Huddersfield and one from Manchester via Brighouse (which is semi-fast between the peaks, omitting Cottingley and Ravensthorpe). The station itself is a fair uphill walk from the town but regular buses serve the heart of the town, and the bus station next to the enormous Tesco.

Things may well improve with electrification (the Huddersfield stopper will be an EMU so the improved acceleration might see it go 2tph- though possibly at the expense of the Manchester which will still be diesel) or even prior to that: The Huddersfield-Manchester Vic stopper is being "temporarily" cut and replaced by a semi-fast Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester service- It's quite possible that stops at the busier stations between Huddersfield and Leeds (namely Morley, Batley, Mirfield and Dewsbury) could be included.

 

[northwichcat]

I certainly think that Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite could be contenders for this one!

I think it's a different problem here. Those places are all too small to be served by a long distance regional service but a lack of paths is preventing a frequency enhancement of the local service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Huddersfield-Manchester Vic stopper is being "temporarily" cut and replaced by a semi-fast Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester service- It's quite possible that stops at the busier stations between Huddersfield and Leeds (namely Morley, Batley, Mirfield and Dewsbury) could be included.

My understanding is none of the fast TPE services will continue to call at Stalybridge or Dewsbury but both stations will be served by all semi-fast services while the local stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield will be served by alternate semi-fasts with the exact calling pattern TBC.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I certainly think that Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite could be contenders for this one! As probably could Dronfield, and possibly Dore & Totley as well.

It wouldn't surprise me if Normanton is suffering a bit from this too, and possibly some out of Elsecar, Chapeltown or Wombwell? Maybe Walsden too.

Okay some of those get a poorer service than they might for other reasons actually (lack of stock, train length or it's judged that current provision is actually adequate), but they are definetly examples of places where more trains which pass could stop.

Those smaller stations on the Standedge route may well see an improvement (in both frequency and journey times) in the interim period during the Northern Hub works with the all-shacks replaced by a semi-fast, but at the possible cost of reduced opportunities for trips between any two of the smaller stops.

Normanton has calls by the 'express' Leeds-Sheffield-(Nottingham) services in the peaks- I don't think there's much demand in the off-peak though.
Walsden is a station that has suffered from cuts over the last few years, and I'm not sure why the Leeds-Manchester via Dewsbury only calls in the peak- It's already a slow service end-to-end so an extra call wouldn't be a problem, and there's only a total of 3tph through there anyway (soon to rise to 4 with the Toddy curve service).
As for Elsecar, most Huddersfield services don't call (presumably because SYPTE assume there isn't the demand) though they do at Wombwell and Chapeltown- it's only the 2tph 'fast' services that don't- and much like Normanton, the penalty of extended journey times would probably be greater than any increased revenue.

 

[northwichcat]

Those smaller stations on the Standedge route may well see an improvement (in both frequency and journey times) in the interim period during the Northern Hub works with the all-shacks replaced by a semi-fast, but at the possible cost of reduced opportunities for trips between any two of the smaller stops.

Just one thing regarding the 'temporary' withdrawal of the stopper. Network Rail have confirmed post-electrification that there will be a path for a Piccadilly-Huddersfield stopper. However, reinstating the stopper is subject to a satisfactory business case. If the semi-fasts are working well but demand from the local stations isn't growing then the stopper may not get reinstated, while if demand is good then the local stations may get the stopper and the semi-fasts meaning they will have 2tph in each direction and have a direct Leeds service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just one thing regarding the 'temporary' withdrawal of the stopper. Network Rail have confirmed post-electrification that there will be a path for a Piccadilly-Huddersfield stopper. However, reinstating the stopper is subject to a satisfactory business case. If the semi-fasts are working well but demand from the local stations isn't growing then the stopper may not get reinstated, while if demand is good then the local stations may get the stopper and the semi-fasts meaning they will have 2tph in each direction and have a direct Leeds service.

Indeed, which is why I put the word 'temporary' in quotes in an earlier post- I have my doubts that it will ever be restored, and whilst that won't be a problem for most users (who are heading for Huddersfield or Manchester) it will have a significant impact locally as most buses along the corridor don't actually serve the centres of Marsden or Slaithwaite and as a result are as distant from the places they claim to serve as the railway is! The lack of an 'all-stations' local service also means that the possibility of new stations along the line (to serve Milnsbridge/Golcar/Diggle/Saddleworth for example) becomes even more of a pipedream!

 

[WatcherZero]

Ince on the Manchester-Southport line, only gets an hourly service.

 

[SeanG]

As has been recently raised, Clifton has a poor service. Kearsley, farnworth & Moses Gate on the same line have only 1tph too

 

[northwichcat]

Ince on the Manchester-Southport line, only gets an hourly service.

Annual passenger use at Ince = 21,608

Given what the frequency and usage is at Trafford Park and Humphrey Park is in comparison I think Ince is lucky if it gets a train every hour.

 

[43074]

As probably could Dronfield...
Okay some of those get a poorer service than they might for other reasons actually (lack of stock, train length or it's judged that current provision is actually adequate), but they are definetly examples of places where more trains which pass could stop.

Dronfield get an hourly service to all the main places to which people would want to travel from there... Leeds, Sheffield, Chesterfield and Nottingham, as well as services to Manchester and Liverpool in the peaks. I don't think it qualifies as a poor service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Elsecar is because of pathing issues.

 

[ryan125hst]

Really?

Morning peak departures for Manchester from Hazel Grove are:
07:00, 07:22, 07:27, 07:48, 08:01, 08:17, 08:22, 08:32

Evening peak departures for Hazel Grove from Manchester are:
16:51, 16:58, 17:22 (fast), 17:23 (all stops), 17:52, 18:21

That level of peak time service is probably partly why Hazel Grove's patronage is good. Also with it being close to the TfGM border and having a more frequent service than other nearby stations some people drive to Hazel Grove instead of their local station for the purpose of reaching Manchester.

Analysis of extending the Hazel Grove terminator to Buxton, Chinley or Sheffield has been looked at and it hasn't resulted in a strong business case for a direct Sheffield service from Hazel Grove as most of the demand from Hazel Grove is for Stockport or Manchester.

That's fine if you are going to/from Manchester, but if you want to travel to/from Sheffield, you have to double back to Stockport. For example, I have relatives in Chapel-en-le-Frith. We always visited them by car, but if we wanted to go by train, we would have to go: Retford to Sheffield with Northern, Sheffield to Stockport (which passes through Hazel Grove) with East Midlands Trains, and then catch a Northern Rail stopper to Chapel, going down the same bit of track that we have just been down as far as Hazel Grove! If more EMT or FTPE services stopped at Hazel Grove, people to/from stations between Hazel Grove and Buxton would see the train as an alternative to the car. While I don't know what passenger figures are, I would imagine it is off-putting having to double back via Stockport.

 

[asylumxl]

I hasten to pedantically point out that Slough and Maidenhead are in Berkshire, not Hertfordshire...

i missed those two at the top, but what I said is still relevant in regards to the post I quoted.

 

[6Gman]

Hartford.

If you want to go north.