LO Class 710

[sjoh]

The Class 710 is due in service next year, and I have a few questions.

1) Does anyone have an idea roughly when we might start seeing them a) on tests, and b) in service?
2) There are 6 extra in order that the Watford DC Class 378s can be used on the rest of the network. It's been said that this is to strengthen the service, but given that 387s cant be run in multiple, the only way this is possible is by introducing extra services... but what might these be?
2a) I understand that there are an extra 4 paths an hour available through the ELL core, but these can only really be made use of by finding matching paths in Southern territory which is difficult enough and indeed necessitated axing the LBG to VIC service - so how might that be solved? Indeed that that bit of extra capacity in the core is quite vital for service recovery, so is it even sensible to be upping the frequency to every 3 minutes?

Bit of a mix between Traction and Rolling Stock and Allocations, Diagrams and Timetables here - my apologies!

Further apologies, just realised that the first part of my question has been answered here, so if a mod wants to move this to AD&T where the second part of my q is possibly more relevant then that's a-okay.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think they have ever said explicitly what the strengthened services on the existing ELL, NLL,WLL, SLL are intended to be. I've quoted the relevant TfL reports in previous discussions about this, but only to substantiate the swap of the existing Watford Euston 387s.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm sure I remember reading May 2018 as a proposed entry into service date but I haven't heard which services are likely to get them first.

The 6 units for Watford strengthen the service by allowing the current 378s to be cascaded to the East London line. As far as I know the frequency from Euston will not change (capacity will actually decrease as 5-car units will go back to 4-car with the 710s).

 

[sjoh]

Keep in mind that should it be necessary there is an option to extend the units to 5 carriages.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure I remember reading May 2018 as a proposed entry into service date but I haven't heard which services are likely to get them first.

The 6 units for Watford strengthen the service by allowing the current 378s to be cascaded to the East London line. As far as I know the frequency from Euston will not change (capacity will actually decrease as 5-car units will go back to 4-car with the 710s).

According to TfL the 6 trains for the DC allows cascades to both the NLL and ELL. And they inter-work with WLL & SLL anyway...

London Overground Frequency Increase Programme, which enhances the current eight trains per hour (tph) on the North London Line (NLL) to 10 tph and increased service resilience on the East London Line (ELL) (six, four car trains)

And...

By putting new trains on the Euston – Watford line the existing Class 378 trains on that route can, in five car formation, be cascaded onto the NLL and ELL to provide a larger and homogenous Class 378 5 car fleet to deliver the planned tph increases.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/fpc-20150617-item16-part-1-lotrain.pdf

 

[jopsuk]

Keep in mind that should it be necessary there is an option to extend the units to 5 carriages.

Given there is no desire to have a six-unit mini fleet for the Watford DC, are the GOBLIN platforms being built to be able to take 5 car trains in the future, can a 5-car work on the Romford-Upminster and how much work would be needed to operate Liverpool Street to Enfield/Cheshunt/Chingford with 10 car trains?

 

[sjoh]

Given there is no desire to have a six-unit mini fleet for the Watford DC, are the GOBLIN platforms being built to be able to take 5 car trains in the future, can a 5-car work on the Romford-Upminster and how much work would be needed to operate Liverpool Street to Enfield/Cheshunt/Chingford with 10 car trains?

I'm guestimating here from local knowledge, but I'm fairly certain all platforms on the chingford line could handle 10, and I believe many of the platforms, but not all, on the GOBLIN could manage 5 cars at a pinch. Enfield/Cheshunt branch I have no clue - same with Romford shuttle, though instinctively I am skeptical of Emerson Park.

 

[jopsuk]

obviously at most quieter stations SDO is a possibility. I think the bay at Cheshunt is only 8 car? But if Crossrail 2 finally goes ahead and brings a four-track railway through to Broxbourne the entire station needs to be rebuilt.

Looking at Google aerial pictures of Enfield (with trains in the station) it looks like that would need track altered to allow platforms to be lengthened there.

 

[Domh245]

Given there is no desire to have a six-unit mini fleet for the Watford DC, are the GOBLIN platforms being built to be able to take 5 car trains in the future, can a 5-car work on the Romford-Upminster and how much work would be needed to operate Liverpool Street to Enfield/Cheshunt/Chingford with 10 car trains?

The GOBLIN platforms should be extendable, or failing that SDO. The Liverpool St. and Romford-Upminster services are operated with a completely different pool of units out of Ilford (S8 style seating and OLE operations only) so they can remain at 4 cars, whilst the Willesden batch could be extended to 5 car.

 

[AverageTD]

Is it confirmed that the spare 378s will be put on the ELL. They could be used the NLL as there is only 6tph between Willesden Junction and Stratford and trains are packed at peak times

 

[87015]

Is it confirmed that the spare 378s will be put on the ELL.

No, not in the May 18 changes anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it confirmed that the spare 378s will be put on the ELL. They could be used the NLL as there is only 6tph between Willesden Junction and Stratford and trains are packed at peak times

If the proposals in my post #5 above (I presume you must have missed it) are still valid, then I expect they'd need four of these six for the NLL, as it's roughly an hour end to end. Then two extra units for the ELL might not enable extra services at all, but just the "increased resilience" that TfL mention, possibly by just having two more trains in daily service and turnaround times on all four routes increased slightly.

 

[Chris125]

The GOBLIN platforms should be extendable, or failing that SDO. The Liverpool St. and Romford-Upminster services are operated with a completely different pool of units out of Ilford (S8 style seating and OLE operations only) so they can remain at 4 cars, whilst the Willesden batch could be extended to 5 car.

Isn't the bay at Gospel Oak a bit of an issue?

 

[AlanFry1]

obviously at most quieter stations SDO is a possibility. I think the bay at Cheshunt is only 8 car? But if Crossrail 2 finally goes ahead and brings a four-track railway through to Broxbourne the entire station needs to be rebuilt.

Looking at Google aerial pictures of Enfield (with trains in the station) it looks like that would need track altered to allow platforms to be lengthened there.

Bush Hill Park, Stamford Hill and Rectory Road would be quite easy to extend to 10 car.

Edmonton Green, Silver Street, White Hart Lane, Bruce Grove and Seven Sisters will be difficult to extend, but I can't see SVS using SDO if AGA continue to call there because quite a large chunk of the train will be off the platform.

Stoke Newington and Hackney Downs are EXTREMELY difficult to extend, due to the engineering complications of these stations although Hackney apparently could be funded. Expect a Waterloo-esque Summer shut down.

Enfield Town could be extended, as could the stations on the Chingford line but this will result in disruption.

I think most stations can take 9 cars as they used to have 313 X 3 during peaks, but some could quite easily become 10-11-12 if needed. Stoke Newington and Hackney definitely not, with many being unlikely. Would be welcome, but unlikely.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Looking at the Timetable Planning Rules, current platform lengths on the Inners are generally at least 184m, so can accommodate 9x20m vehicles or 8x23m vehicles.

Exceptions are as follows:

• Angel Road : Platform 1 is 163m
• Brimsdown : Platform 1 is 162m
• Broxbourne : Platforms 1 and 4 (Loops) are 172m
• Cheshunt : Platform 3 (Bay) is 164m
• Chingford : Platform 1 is 167m
• Enfield Lock : Platform 1 is 167m, Platform 2 is 165m
• Enfield Town : Platform 3 is 186m but is restricted to 4 car EMUs, presumably due to the mid-platform crossover
• Hertford East : Both platforms are 165m
• Northumberland Park : Platform 1 is 172m, Platform 2 is 173m
• Ponders End : Platform 1 is 167m, Platform 2 is 166m
• Rye House : Platform 1 is 170m
• St Margarets : Platform 2 is 163m
• Waltham Cross : Platform 2 is 170m
• Ware : The platform is 165m

For the sake of completeness, the "Main Line" platforms at Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne and Sawbridgeworth are all at least 240m long.

 

[AlanFry1]

Looking at the Timetable Planning Rules, current platform lengths on the Inners are generally at least 184m, so can accommodate 9x20m vehicles or 8x23m vehicles.

Exceptions are as follows:

• Angel Road : Platform 1 is 163m
• Brimsdown : Platform 1 is 162m
• Broxbourne : Platforms 1 and 4 (Loops) are 172m
• Cheshunt : Platform 3 (Bay) is 164m
• Chingford : Platform 1 is 167m
• Enfield Lock : Platform 1 is 167m, Platform 2 is 165m
• Enfield Town : Platform 3 is 186m but is restricted to 4 car EMUs, presumably due to the mid-platform crossover
• Hertford East : Both platforms are 165m
• Northumberland Park : Platform 1 is 172m, Platform 2 is 173m
• Ponders End : Platform 1 is 167m, Platform 2 is 166m
• Rye House : Platform 1 is 170m
• St Margarets : Platform 2 is 163m
• Waltham Cross : Platform 2 is 170m
• Ware : The platform is 165m

For the sake of completeness, the "Main Line" platforms at Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne and Sawbridgeworth are all at least 240m long.

Most of these stations won't be served by 710s