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LNWR: Where was John O'Gaunt?

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SargeNpton

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I am currently going through my grandfather's archives from his WW1 service and the following few years.

He was de-mobbed in May 1919 and resumed his railway service on the LNWR. Prior to getting a permanent position at Northampton he spent a couple of years acting as a relief ticket clerk at various stations in Northamptonshire and nearby counties, all listed in his diary.

There is one entry that puzzles me: "John O'Gaunt (Relief) July 12th to 24th 1920".

Does anybody have any idea where that location may have been on the LNWR? The name has some connections with Daventry, so I am wondering whether John O'Gaunt was applied to that station informally.
 
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Calthrop

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If I understand rightly: John O' Gaunt station was "semi"- or "quasi-" LNWR: it was one of the stations on the Great Northern / LNW Joint route running northward off the LNW Rugby -- Peterborough line, diverging a little way north-east of Market Harborough. "Joint" trackage ran northward, to join the Great Northern Grantham -- Nottingham line near Bottesford, and near Bingham. John O' Gaunt was pretty well due east of Leicester: a little way north of the junctions at Marefield, where the -- Great Northern-only -- branch to Leicester (Belgrave Road) took off westward. (Passenger services on this group of lines essentially ended in the early 1950s, I believe; freight about ten years later.)
[Daventry not the proverbial "million miles away", but not all that close to, either; a little curiosity prompted, as to what the connections might be.]
 

SargeNpton

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If I understand rightly: John O' Gaunt station was "semi"- or "quasi-" LNWR: it was one of the stations on the Great Northern / LNW Joint route running northward off the LNW Rugby -- Peterborough line, diverging a little way north-east of Market Harborough. "Joint" trackage ran northward, to join the Great Northern Grantham -- Nottingham line near Bottesford, and near Bingham. John O' Gaunt was pretty well due east of Leicester: a little way north of the junctions at Marefield, where the -- Great Northern-only -- branch to Leicester (Belgrave Road) took off westward. (Passenger services on this group of lines essentially ended in the early 1950s, I believe; freight about ten years later.)
[Daventry not the proverbial "million miles away", but not all that close to, either; a little curiosity prompted, as to what the connections might be.]
Thanks for that.
 

Merle Haggard

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Quoting from The Great Northern in the East Midlands Part 4 ISBN 090 1115 924:

'Situated in open country between Twyford and Burrough on the Hill, this station was named Burrough & Twyford when it opened in 1879. However, to avoid confusion with other stations named Twyford it was renamed John O'Gaunt, after a fox covert nearby, in 1883.' It goes on to say that there was busy agricultural traffic, and 'grain traffic was heavy at times'.

//

The Joint Line was the route for coal from Notts & Derbys coalmines on the ex G.N. to London destinations on the ex LNWR. In my spotting days, it provided the entertainment of (usually unkempt) Colwick engines at Kingsthorpe; almost always a W.D. but, rarely, something more unusual (not always of a type cleared for the route.). Northampton shed had 4 W.D.s for their share of the work, the only shed towards the Southern end of the Western Lines to have any allocated.

I bumped into an old farmer from the area on a local steam railway; one of his anecdotes was that an expected wagon never arrived; further enquiries showed it located in Scotland, the label having been misread as reading 'John O'Groats'. A jolly story, not sure though.
 

Gloster

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There was a LNWR and GNR joint line that ran from the LNWR’s Northampton and Rugby to Peterborough line just north of Market Harborough to two locations on the GNR’s Grantham-Nottingham line. There was a GNR branch that ran from Marefield Junctions (a triangle) on this to Leicester (Belgrave Road): John O’Gaunt was the station on the joint line to the north of the triangle. Passenger trains, except a few dated Summer Saturday trains from Leicester, went in 1953.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Station closed to passengers in 1953 and to goods traffic in 1962. When first opened in 1879, it was originally known as 'Burrow and Twyford' (or possibly 'Twyford and Burrough') after the two main villages in the area. The name change to 'John O' Gaunt' occurred in the mid 1880s, possibly 1883, ostensibly to avoid confusion with similarly named stations elsewhere on the GB rail network. Understand that in its early years, 'John O'Gaunt' station was a railhead for the conveyance of horses used for fox hunting in that part of Leicestershire. In later years, the station also saw a fair bit of milk traffic.
 

Revaulx

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The Joint Line was the route for coal from Notts & Derbys coalmines on the ex G.N. to London destinations on the ex LNWR. In my spotting days, it provided the entertainment of (usually unkempt) Colwick engines at Kingsthorpe; almost always a W.D. but, rarely, something more unusual (not always of a type cleared for the route.). Northampton shed had 4 W.D.s for their share of the work, the only shed towards the Southern end of the Western Lines to have any allocated.
Any idea why the GN sent coal this way rather than along their own line to London?
 

Merle Haggard

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Any idea why the GN sent coal this way rather than along their own line to London?

The line had an interesting history; originally it was an ambitious G.N. scheme to get to West London but, hitting financial problems, they were bailed out by the LNWR - who then exploited the partnership to their own advantage.The LNWR got a lot more out of the deal - e.g. running powers to York - than the G.N. did, and of course the LNWR were only interested in getting the line as far South as Welham Junction, where it connected into their network.
Coal merchants in London were based very locally (there were some big factors, but they still had local outlets (there were no 'Coal Concentration Depots' then), usually at stations of course, and these locations were on lines belonging to the different railway companies then in existence.The line gave the opportunity for the G.N. to serve coal merchants in areas served by LNWR lines - broadly in West (-ish) London as well as G.N. ones. It was all very complicated, some companies had goods or coal depots that they owned and ran, but which were not on their own line. Wagons were routinely sent to destinations on other lines, so the G.N. could have done this, but this meant, through the Railway Clearing House, that the originating railway paid a 'rival' for conveyance over the last leg. Much better to keep the revenue to yourself or shared on an equitable basis.
As far as the collieries went; there were three railways running down the Leen Valley (GN, GC & Mid) and although the lines ran close together and crossed each other each company tried to get a monopoly on a colliery to freeze the others out (which was why B.R. found it difficult to rationalise the lines, because collieries were connected to one or two of the lines in different permutations). The Joint Line gave, via the G.N. the L.N.W.R. access to a completely new source of traffic without having to build a fourth line.
Freight traffic has always been a complicated subject and the railway authors such as O.S. Nock were only interested in express passenger trains. There are less superficial books - I recently came across a biography of Mark Huish, an executive of the Grand Junction and then of the LNWR. It details how he negotiated with other companies the rights to and apportionment of freight traffic flows, all very interesting to me, but perhaps harder work to read. My interest stemmed from a childhood happily watching a procession of varied coal and merchandise trains clatter pass on mysterious workings from faraway exotic places (like Colwick!) while everyone else was watching 'boring' expresses with their routes displayed on carriage boards..
 

Magdalia

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Any idea why the GN sent coal this way rather than along their own line to London?
Primarily the Great Northern needed to avoid having slow moving coal trains on the main line, especially the climb from Grantham to Stoke Tunnel.

They did have another route which was the GN&GE Joint Line to Spalding then to New England. Coal trains did run on the southern end of the main line from New England to Ferme Park. From Ferme Park via the Widened Lines gave access to south of the River Thames.

The GN&GE Joint Line also fed coal traffic to Whitemoor then on to Temple Mills and East London.

There were few bits of London that the GN's coal traffic could not reach by one way or another.
 

WesternLancer

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Some pictures on Flickr of the station in a derelict state in the mid 60s. Buildings look quite generously sized for the location. Good photos and worth a look.

 

Calthrop

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Most interesting to learn of these lines' role as regards long-distance coal traffic: of which I'd been unaware; had envisaged said lines as a lovable "white elephant" system running through the back of beyond -- perhaps a bit useful for seaside excursion traffic between Leicester and the Lincolnshire resorts -- whose perishing at the time in the 20th century when it did so, was not at all surprising. Thanks to all concerned, for informative and enlightening posts.
 

edwin_m

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I believe this route took some traffic from iron ore mining north of Melton, also served by a branch off the Midland.

In Nottingham the LNWR had a goods warehouse and a passenger service that was the last user of London Road Low Level after the GNR re-routed onto the connection to London Road High Level and Victoria. Either had to travel nearly to Market Harborough before they reached any purely LNWR track.
 

Revaulx

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Thanks @Merle Haggard and @Magdalia for your interesting answers!

The GN seemed to be good at getting itself into financial hot water; the Queensbury lines cost a fortune to build and were a basket case from the start. The 1909 proposed merger with the GE and GC made a lot of sense.
 

D Mylchreest

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WesternLancer

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Nice link from the Friends of the NRM there - good find! The original Radio Leicester play sounds like worth a listen, although it was perhaps broadcast many years ago.
 

70014IronDuke

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John O’Gaunt Viaduct is still a major local landmark: https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3184872
Gosh, that's really impressive, I had no idea the line included this massive investment.

I was, supposedly, on the last passenger train over the Melton to Leicester Belgrave Rd line in September 1962. At least, that is what I was told at the time, but I think someone produced evidence of the Skeggy trains still running a week or two after the date of my trip.

It's weird to thing of the Melton Mowbray station standing for years with just one train each-way per week in the summer only. I seem to remember it was in astonishingly good condition at the time I was there - it would be a grafitted wreck of a place within weeks in the modern era.
 

Merle Haggard

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The Lord Harborough battle is also relevant to postings in the thread 'Forms of Compensation to Land Owners in Victorian Times'*; I referred to this 'battle' in that thread as an example of how land acquisition by railways was not easy.

Might be worth loading on that thread.


*Sorry, I don't know how to link.

//

John O' Gaunt had one siding on the Down side and two on the Up side. However, the civil engineers of the day designed the layout so that, to provide access in every possible circumstance to the Up sidings, it involved three single slips and two double slips. One of each fed into a scissors, to make it even more complicated.
But typical of many branch line station layouts long before the days when important junctions on main lines involve only single leads.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Gosh, that's really impressive, I had no idea the line included this massive investment.

Don't forget that the line had to climb over the Leicestershire Wolds. Can't find a gradient profile for the Northern end but from Tilton (the station South of J O'G) it was pretty much 1 in 120 all the way down to Welham Junction. Imagine that with 60 loaded unfitted 16t Mins (about 1450 tons trailing) and just the brakes on the WD and the brake van to keep it under control to go into Welham yard. Trains that continued to London then faced the climb to Kelmarsh although they were banked by a Super D.

Everything's so tame and boring now :)
 
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WesternLancer

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The Lord Harborough battle is also relevant to postings in the thread 'Forms of Compensation to Land Owners in Victorian Times'*; I referred to this 'battle' in that thread as an example of how land acquisition by railways was not easy.

Might be worth loading on that thread.


*Sorry, I don't know how to link.

//

This would be that link - hopefully - copied it as easier to do from a lap top I find
 

SargeNpton

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Once again, thank you all for the information provided above. As it was outside of my grandfather's normal locations it is surprising that he spent some time there - but we live and learn.
 

Stathern Jc

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Don't forget that the line had to climb over the Leicestershire Wolds. Can't find a gradient profile for the Northern end but from Tilton (the station South of J O'G) it was pretty much 1 in 120 all the way down to Welham Junction. Imagine that with 60 loaded unfitted 16t Mins (about 1450 tons trailing) and just the brakes on the WD and the brake van to keep it under control to go into Welham yard. Trains that continued to London then faced the climb to Kelmarsh although they were banked by a Super D.

Everything's so tame and boring now :)
"The Great Northern Railway in the East Midlands - No 4" quoted upthread has much of interest, including Gradient Profiles.
Here is that for the section from Bottesford to Scalford.
Gradient Profile Bottesford - Scalford.jpg
This shows a steady climb of 6 miles mostly at 1 in 120 up to just beyond Hose Tunnel, with a short easier stretch about a mile and a half before Stathern Junction. Similarly the line from Saxondale Junction climbs for about 2 1/2 miles mostly at 1 in 120 from shortly after Barnstone with a short level stretch about a mile before Stathern Junction.
As both lines climbed out of the Vale of Belvoir they needed to clear the Grantham Canal, with navigable clearance, once clear of that I'm pretty sure will be where the short easings of the gradients were.
As Merle says about the South end of the line, this also would have been interesting with a load of ironstone heading downhill into the Trent Valley.

(Apologies for drifting away from John o'Gaunt here, but the GN & LNWR Joint Line has quite a bit of interest and perhaps justifies a thread of it's own.)
 
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