LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[Bletchleyite]

Would that even be possible considering Rugeley has an upper level like tamworth?

You're thinking of Lichfield Trent Valley. It's a side platform at Rugeley.

 

[sd0733]

Its just unessarily messy and confusing, i wish WM trains were a bit more organised in having 2 brands cause its probs gonna be worse when the franchise ends and WMR becomes property of the west midlands

people are saying contradicting information about the timetable and i honestly dont know what to believe anymore

It is a mess at the moment and the two sides are very much entwined.
The sunday service could well be WMr oprerated but itll be with a LNR unit, a 350 and LNR crew, Crewe are working them. So it wont look like a WMR train. By the end of the franchise it will be more split with seperate fleets and staff but as it is currently it is essentially all as one company covering 2 sub brands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a mess at the moment and the two sides are very much entwined.
The sunday service could well be WMr oprerated but itll be with a LNR unit, a 350 and LNR crew, Crewe are working them. So it wont look like a WMR train. By the end of the franchise it will be more split with seperate fleets and staff but as it is currently it is essentially all as one company covering 2 sub brands.

The split was required as part of the franchise agreement, but it probably doesn't make sense. They'd have been better doing it in the manner Northern has Merseyrail services, or like LM had "londonmidland:city" - just sticking WMR stickers onto trains used entirely for services within the West Midlands, but having one brand for the overall TOC.

 

[DavidGrain]

I didn't see how splitting the brands would work and it seems to me that the new timetable is mixing them up even more

 

[RealTrains07]

It is a mess at the moment and the two sides are very much entwined.
The sunday service could well be WMr oprerated but itll be with a LNR unit, a 350 and LNR crew, Crewe are working them. So it wont look like a WMR train. By the end of the franchise it will be more split with seperate fleets and staff but as it is currently it is essentially all as one company covering 2 sub brands.

Cant see a wmr operated service using different brand and trains.

Surely its not impossible to have wmr crew and trains working on the route after some training

 

[RealTrains07]

You're thinking of Lichfield Trent Valley. It's a side platform at Rugeley.

Makes sense considering the timetable

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cant see a wmr operated service using different brand and trains.

Surely its not impossible to have wmr crew and trains working on the route after some training

You could viably split off things like the CrossCity and Snow Hill lines as a Merseyrail Electrics style standalone franchise, but most of the other stuff has too much through running for it to work.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The WMR/LNR split is there to satisfy the egos of West Midlands politicians and DfT, not for efficient railway operation.
Anyway, who knows what operational split will emerge after the Williams review?
For now they are one TOC (WMT) with two sub-brands (WMR/LNR), accounted for separately.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Going to Rugeley would be a struggle, not only would it need to thread through Norton Bridgr and colwich but also cross across the entire layout at Rugeley

Norton Bridge is now grade separated, but Colwich could be an issue and, as you say, crossing all four lines at Rugeley is a non-starter. The arrangement at Rugeley is about as unhelpful as it could possibly be for the pathing of such a service - the Up mainline platform is on the Up Slow, which is at the outside of the four tracks. That wouldn't be the biggest problem - seeing as there would probably be just about enough slack to find some spare Slow line time to turn back a service there. But there are no points to connect the Up Slow to the Down Slow for example. To install those would cause a lot of disruption and cost a lot. NR wouldn't exactly do it for free, either, just for the sake of this one service!

But it gets better. The Down mainline platform is on the Down Fast, which is also on the outside of the four tracks. A quite unusual and unhelpful layout that has the benefits of neither paired by direction nor paired by use. No chance at all of being able to turn back a service on the Down Fast!

So unfortunately running a service from Stafford to Rugeley that isn't through running on the mainline is a non-starter, at least with the current infrastructure.

 

[sd0733]

Cant see a wmr operated service using different brand and trains.

Surely its not impossible to have wmr crew and trains working on the route after some training

They already operate loads of WMR services with entirely LNR crew and unit as it stands.
WM crews go to Liverpool etc, the Marston vale is run exclusively by WMR branded 150s and 153s until the 230s come on stream
This whole split was something dreamt up by Politics and Councils and not the bidders, they are being told to make it work but the process hasnt really begun yet, 2021 was the date i heard for a start in untangling it. Until it begins nobody knows how it will happen so it is best just to consider all.as one.

 

[sd0733]

Norton Bridge is now grade separated, but Colwich could be an issue and, as you say, crossing all four lines at Rugeley is a non-starter.

The problem at Norton Bridge heading south is that to access the Trent valley you end up on the wrong side of the WCML as the flyover is really set up for trains heading to Wolverhampton. Running over the flyover heading to Rugeley means you need to cross back at any of Doxey, Stafford Trent Valley or Milford junctions

 

[sd0733]

You could viably split off things like the CrossCity and Snow Hill lines as a Merseyrail Electrics style standalone franchise, but most of the other stuff has too much through running for it to work.

Yes that would seem the only logical way. Maybe also include the Shrewsbury and Worcester services and Wolves to Walsall altho that is complicated by some direct Walsall to Londons being a franchise commitment. The whole thing wasnt thought through at all at the time of the original franchise spec.

 

[bionic]

But it gets better. The Down mainline platform is on the Down Fast, which is also on the outside of the four tracks. A quite unusual and unhelpful layout that has the benefits of neither paired by direction nor paired by use. No chance at all of being able to turn back a service on the Down Fast!

Both Trent Valley platforms at Rugeley were on the slow lines last time I checked!

 

[RealTrains07]

You could viably split off things like the CrossCity and Snow Hill lines as a Merseyrail Electrics style standalone franchise, but most of the other stuff has too much through running for it to work.

Not sure what you mean? Are you saying it would be too complicated for trains like the 172s to run on the stoke loop?

 

[RealTrains07]

They already operate loads of WMR services with entirely LNR crew and unit as it stands.
WM crews go to Liverpool etc, the Marston vale is run exclusively by WMR branded 150s and 153s until the 230s come on stream
This whole split was something dreamt up by Politics and Councils and not the bidders, they are being told to make it work but the process hasnt really begun yet, 2021 was the date i heard for a start in untangling it. Until it begins nobody knows how it will happen so it is best just to consider all.as one.

Yeah. Its a shame this process wasn’t thought through, but then again nothing really is on the railways these days

 

[sd0733]

Not sure what you mean? Are you saying it would be too complicated for trains like the 172s to run on the stoke loop?

In a word yes. There is no way a 172 will work a train via Stoke for the forseeable future. There would be no reason to train staff to work diesels via Stoke.

 

[RealTrains07]

In a word yes. There is no way a 172 will work a train via Stoke for the forseeable future. There would be no reason to train staff to work diesels via Stoke.

Yeah true with the line being electrified no point but units like the 323s i guess would be the same case even though they are electric

 

[RealTrains07]

If LNR are running the birmingham to crewe on sundays then why not to london instead of birmingham??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure what you mean? Are you saying it would be too complicated for trains like the 172s to run on the stoke loop?

Why would you want to run DMUs on an electrified line?

 

[causton]

Its just unessarily messy and confusing, i wish WM trains were a bit more organised in having 2 brands cause its probs gonna be worse when the franchise ends and WMR becomes property of the west midlands.

people are saying contradicting information about the timetable and i honestly dont know what to believe anymore

Well unless you buy two completely separate fleets of trains this will happen. Just because it uses a 350 doesn't mean it's not a WMR service. For example the Marston Vale uses WMR trains and is definitely an LNR service!

 

[Glenn1969]

On Barlaston station's Wiki page it mentions the chance of the station reopening in 2020 or 2021 and being served by a WMR Birmingham- Stoke- Crewe service. Is that merely wishful thinking?

 

[jfollows]

But it gets better. The Down mainline platform is on the Down Fast, which is also on the outside of the four tracks. A quite unusual and unhelpful layout that has the benefits of neither paired by direction nor paired by use. No chance at all of being able to turn back a service on the Down Fast!

I think this was only true until 2008, and following the four-tracking through Lichfield and Tamworth the layout through Rugeley reverted to having both fast lines in the middle and slow lines on the outside. Prior to the work, the turnout at Armitage was indeed slower into the right-hand down line, which was the slow line, and the fast line was on the outside as you say.

I attach my diagram which dates from the 1980s, prior to the 110mph changes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On Barlaston station's Wiki page it mentions the chance of the station reopening in 2020 or 2021 and being served by a WMR Birmingham- Stoke- Crewe service. Is that merely wishful thinking?

I thought it was a franchise commitment to reopen one or other of them.

 

[Deafdoggie]

On Barlaston station's Wiki page it mentions the chance of the station reopening in 2020 or 2021 and being served by a WMR Birmingham- Stoke- Crewe service. Is that merely wishful thinking?

They have done a lot of work at Barlaston station recently. It could be used pretty much straight away now, after years of neglect and even having the platform edges removed. In a surprise move, Wedgwood has had temporary flooring laid down to make it safe-even though t remains fenced off. They have also installed further fencing part way down the platform, effectively blocking off the part of the platform trains would actually use-if they used it.

 

[RealTrains07]

On Barlaston station's Wiki page it mentions the chance of the station reopening in 2020 or 2021 and being served by a WMR Birmingham- Stoke- Crewe service. Is that merely wishful thinking?

Possibly depends how regular they decide to stop trains their

 

[Kite159]

The problem at Norton Bridge heading south is that to access the Trent valley you end up on the wrong side of the WCML as the flyover is really set up for trains heading to Wolverhampton. Running over the flyover heading to Rugeley means you need to cross back at any of Doxey, Stafford Trent Valley or Milford junctions

There is a chord which keeps trains on the correct side of the WCML when coming from Stone when heading towards the Trent Valley, used at the moment by the Crewe - Stoke - Euston 350s. Passes the remains of the station at Norton Bridge.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There is a chord which keeps trains on the correct side of the WCML when coming from Stone when heading towards the Trent Valley, used at the moment by the Crewe - Stoke - Euston 350s. Passes the remains of the station at Norton Bridge.

It's the up slow, runs on original alignment

 

[sd0733]

There is a chord which keeps trains on the correct side of the WCML when coming from Stone when heading towards the Trent Valley, used at the moment by the Crewe - Stoke - Euston 350s. Passes the remains of the station at Norton Bridge.

I know there is but the post i was replying to said about the flyover helping get a path, but for a train going from the Stoke line to the Rugeley line it doesnt particuluarly help.
The flyover is brilliant for trains heading to and from the Brum line which was obviously the intention for the long term.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's the up slow, runs on original alignment

It runs onto the up fast, there is no flat crossover to the slows any more (that's what the flyover is for).
The TV 350s via Stoke normally run fast line from Norton Bridge to Colwich.

Trains diverging at Rugeley could use the up fast throughout and then via the ladder at Rugeley North into P1.
Coming the other way there are no crossover conflicts once on the down slow.

 

[RealTrains07]

Later and earlier trains in the day/night between crewe and birmingham would be an improvement considering the big night life in those areas in the west midlands