LNER UFN headache

[Snarf43]

Hi all,

Sorry for war and peace below......

I need some good advice on a UFN I was given coming home from Kings cross to Newcastle recently by LNER.

We had purchased fixed tickets for both outbound and return journeys.The railway tickets were purchased by a third party holiday package company who arranged our hotel too.We paid our invoice to them(invoice in my partners name) and on the invoice was the railway reservation number to claim our tickets plus our fixed ticket train details(the seats and train times).

We went down on the 24th and returned on 28th.I printed all our tickets/reservation confirmation and collection receipts on 24th on LNER machine, and we had no issues on the way down.

On 28th though we had a problem.We were sat in our reserved seats but unfortunately i only had our 4 x reservation confirmations(all with my partners name on) plus collection receipt but no ticket!

Tried to explain but the conductor just said he could do us a deal on buying another ticket or raise a UFN....the ticket repurchase was about £210.We said no as we have already paid and can prove that and he then raised a UFN for the increased sum of £525 quid!He never made it clear what the UFN cost would be at the time so we could make an informed decision.

He has also got the name wrong on the UFN...he has got my first name and my partners surname so some sort of miscommunucation there.I only noticed this much later on. We were both talking to him and stressed.I'll have to mention that in my appeal.Address was correct at least.

I know it was really daft losing the ticket as thats the most important thing when proving right to travel.I'm fully aware theres a breach in contracted terms and conditions. We never use trains and its the first time we done a uk city break using LNER so its all a first time offence.Just a really stupid error to make that i'll never do again.

I've got a copy of the invoice we paid to the holiday company with the reservation details on and collection code and the tickets will be showing as paid linked to that collection code.Because the ticket was fixed the possibility of anyone else using it were slim to none as they could only be used on our train home and I feel thats a point to be made in appeal.I really dont believe LNER are out of pocket with all this so £525 feels massively greedy on top of what we can already evidence as paid to them for our original booking. I also dont understand the material disparity between the UFN and the ticket repurchase.It feels a little like extortion tactics and if it was all fair, they'd surely be about the same value.Feels like i'm getting punished by LNER because i choose to state my case with them and appeal the fact i was already a full paying customer who made an honest mistake?This is a lot different to someone fare dodging or short paying on purpose.

I plan to appeal asap and go to ombudsman if required but dont really know where i stand. I know it's going to cost me!

I mean I guess i'll pay them something for breaching terms and conditions if i have to but £525 quid!!!?Just a lot of money for us and way more than what we already paid. It just doesnt feel right at all!Had a great city break but back to reality with a big bump.

The basic plan with appeal is just to tell the truth.Theres nothing sinister with this other than i should take more care with train tickets. They'll probably not back down and perhaps the ombudsman may reduce the charges based on the facts presented.

It saddens me that honest folks making silly mistakes generate revenue for railway companies to very partially offset the cost of the real fare evaders!I feel railway companies jump on this because they know they can generate profit.

Thanks to anyone who may reply to this.....

B

 

[AlterEgo]

Just to be clear before we start - the coupons you showed were separate reservation confirmations valid for that train? And the thing missing was the actual ticket, which was printed separately?

 

[methecooldude]

I also dont understand the material disparity between the UFN and the ticket repurchase.

The ticket repurchase would probably be a 4 person group-save. Group-save cannot be applied to a UFN hence the price difference

 

[Snarf43]

Yes 4 x seperate reservation coupons were shown plus a collection receipt.....

Ticket was missing.I had printed all coupons on the 24th.

I suspect i foolishly threw it away along with the outbound journey coupons when we arrived in our hotel on the 24th.....kicking myself now.

All reservation coupons fixed for the train we were on and valid and linked to the seats we were sat in too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2022 ==

The ticket repurchase would probably be a 4 person group-save. Group-save cannot be applied to a UFN hence the price difference

Ok that makes sense.He didnt actually tell us the UFN cost though and just went ahead and printed it off.At the time it was hard to know what decision to make.We had paid, we can evidence it so i didnt want to pay anything!

 

[Master29]

Unfortunately, you still need to display valid tickets for your journeys which you didn't as you had possibly thrown them away. I know you had seat reservations for the particular train which proves tickets were bought, however, LNER could look at this and say 4 other people were travelling on a freebie. I`m not doubting your story at all but just looking at it from how they might see it.
I`m not sure you can do anything other than write to LNER about the situation. They might offer you something, but I cannot guarantee that.

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem is not that he suspected you of not paying but that you didn’t, actually, have a ticket. Tickets are very important because they’re the only thing that entitles you to travel. Else, why would they issue them to you?

My recommendation is to not pay the notice just yet - the deadline won’t be for a few weeks yet - and lodge a complaint with LNER. Be polite, show you were on the correct train and seats as per your reservation and ask politely for the notice to be cancelled as a gesture of goodwill. Apologise for losing the ticket and say you now understand how careless you were, have learned your lesson, enjoyed the journey down etc etc.

Please post a draft of the letter and I’ll help proof read it with others in the forum. The key to getting your way here where you’re technically at fault is:

- apologise for the misunderstanding
- reinforce goodwill still exists between you and the company
- ask for help to correct your mistake
- specifically set out what action you’d like (cancelling the notice) to put you right

 

[Snarf43]

Yeah thats how i feel too.I've probably answered my own questions in my OP!!!I'm good at that.....

The paper tickets are just a massive liability if things go wrong and the railway company get the upper hand by being able to present scenarios like the people travelling free one!!!

We didnt get the chance to get digital tickets.Tbh our inexperience with rail travel has shone through.I hope in this appeals process i can just reduce this 525 quid a bit!!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2022 ==

The problem is not that he suspected you of not paying but that you didn’t, actually, have a ticket. Tickets are very important because they’re the only thing that entitles you to travel. Else, why would they issue them to you?

My recommendation is to not pay the notice just yet - the deadline won’t be for a few weeks yet - and lodge a complaint with LNER. Be polite, show you were on the correct train and seats as per your reservation and ask politely for the notice to be cancelled as a gesture of goodwill. Apologise for losing the ticket and say you now understand how careless you were, have learned your lesson, enjoyed the journey down etc etc.

Please post a draft of the letter and I’ll help proof read it with others in the forum. The key to getting your way here where you’re technically at fault is:

- apologise for the misunderstanding
- reinforce goodwill still exists between you and the company
- ask for help to correct your mistake
- specifically set out what action you’d like (cancelling the notice) to put you right

Thanks for this advice.I'll get onto this tommorow and draft something up......

I hope LNER are one of the more reasonable railway companies.....

Theres definately a case i can build for just being careless and tbh the service we were provided by LNER was reasonable...

Ticket inspector was just doing his job i guess.As much as it pissed me off at the time i get that he has his LNER hat on

 

[Wallsendmag]

The ticket repurchase would probably be a 4 person group-save. Group-save cannot be applied to a UFN hence the price difference

Quite apart from the fact that Groupsave isn't valid on LNER. The whole problem with not having tickets is how do we know someone else didn't use them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite apart from the fact that Groupsave isn't valid on LNER. The whole problem with not having tickets is how do we know someone else didn't use them?

As they were Advances and the OP had the reservation coupons, how would they have done that?

 

[AlterEgo]

Quite apart from the fact that Groupsave isn't valid on LNER. The whole problem with not having tickets is how do we know someone else didn't use them?

If they have their reservation coupons, proof of purchase and are on the correct train and occupying the seats on the reservation coupons, I think it’s a bit harsh to sting them for new tickets.

The railway doesn’t have to be Judge Dredd when it comes to revenue protection. On the balance of probabilities, someone in this situation probably has lost their ticket and probably just needs a bit of a lecture followed up with a “just this time, because I’m nice” spiel at the end.

 

[island]

The ticket repurchase would probably be a 4 person group-save. Group-save cannot be applied to a UFN hence the price difference

LNER does not have GroupSave. A UPFN would be issued for the Anytime Single fare; it seems the train manager was offering to issue super off-peak singles if paid there and then.

 

[Haywain]

Yes 4 x seperate reservation coupons were shown plus a collection receipt.....

Ticket was missing.I had printed all coupons on the 24th.

If there were 4 reservation coupons there would be 4 tickets that were missing.

 

[Wallsendmag]

As they were Advances and the OP had the reservation coupons, how would they have done that?

People have been knon to walk into a ticket office with their tickets but not their reservations and say "I've lost my reserations can you find them for me?" No need to actually sit in your reserved seat so you could sit four or five coches away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People have been knon to walk into a ticket office with their tickets but not their reservations and say "I've lost my reserations can you find them for me?" No need to actually sit in your reserved seat so you could sit four or five coches away.

With walk ups yes, but with Advances isn't it basically a two part ticket?

 

[Class800]

If they have their reservation coupons, proof of purchase and are on the correct train and occupying the seats on the reservation coupons, I think it’s a bit harsh to sting them for new tickets.

The railway doesn’t have to be Judge Dredd when it comes to revenue protection. On the balance of probabilities, someone in this situation probably has lost their ticket and probably just needs a bit of a lecture followed up with a “just this time, because I’m nice” spiel at the end.

I would agree with you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would agree with you.

Indeed. This definitely seems one of the cases where discretion should be shown.

We really need to get all tickets over to barcodes. Then it would be possible to cancel the original and re-issue - though I bet the railway won't do that as it doesn't like good customer service as it costs it money.

 

[Class800]

Indeed. This definitely seems one of the cases where discretion should be shown.

We really need to get all tickets over to barcodes. Then it would be possible to cancel the original and re-issue - though I bet the railway won't do that as it doesn't like good customer service as it costs it money.

Agree with everything you say here. And about the lack of motivation to improve service and eliminate unfairness. The worst one I saw was when a group of foreign tourists who spoke very little English got on an XC train with an LNER flexible single. How would they know the difference. Got to be sensible sometimes!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

Sorry for war and peace below......

I need some good advice on a UFN I was given coming home from Kings cross to Newcastle recently by LNER.

We had purchased fixed tickets for both outbound and return journeys.The railway tickets were purchased by a third party holiday package company who arranged our hotel too.We paid our invoice to them(invoice in my partners name) and on the invoice was the railway reservation number to claim our tickets plus our fixed ticket train details(the seats and train times).

We went down on the 24th and returned on 28th.I printed all our tickets/reservation confirmation and collection receipts on 24th on LNER machine, and we had no issues on the way down.

On 28th though we had a problem.We were sat in our reserved seats but unfortunately i only had our 4 x reservation confirmations(all with my partners name on) plus collection receipt but no ticket!

Tried to explain but the conductor just said he could do us a deal on buying another ticket or raise a UFN....the ticket repurchase was about £210.We said no as we have already paid and can prove that and he then raised a UFN for the increased sum of £525 quid!He never made it clear what the UFN cost would be at the time so we could make an informed decision.

He has also got the name wrong on the UFN...he has got my first name and my partners surname so some sort of miscommunucation there.I only noticed this much later on. We were both talking to him and stressed.I'll have to mention that in my appeal.Address was correct at least.

I know it was really daft losing the ticket as thats the most important thing when proving right to travel.I'm fully aware theres a breach in contracted terms and conditions. We never use trains and its the first time we done a uk city break using LNER so its all a first time offence.Just a really stupid error to make that i'll never do again.

I've got a copy of the invoice we paid to the holiday company with the reservation details on and collection code and the tickets will be showing as paid linked to that collection code.Because the ticket was fixed the possibility of anyone else using it were slim to none as they could only be used on our train home and I feel thats a point to be made in appeal.I really dont believe LNER are out of pocket with all this so £525 feels massively greedy on top of what we can already evidence as paid to them for our original booking. I also dont understand the material disparity between the UFN and the ticket repurchase.It feels a little like extortion tactics and if it was all fair, they'd surely be about the same value.Feels like i'm getting punished by LNER because i choose to state my case with them and appeal the fact i was already a full paying customer who made an honest mistake?This is a lot different to someone fare dodging or short paying on purpose.

I plan to appeal asap and go to ombudsman if required but dont really know where i stand. I know it's going to cost me!

I mean I guess i'll pay them something for breaching terms and conditions if i have to but £525 quid!!!?Just a lot of money for us and way more than what we already paid. It just doesnt feel right at all!Had a great city break but back to reality with a big bump.

The basic plan with appeal is just to tell the truth.Theres nothing sinister with this other than i should take more care with train tickets. They'll probably not back down and perhaps the ombudsman may reduce the charges based on the facts presented.

It saddens me that honest folks making silly mistakes generate revenue for railway companies to very partially offset the cost of the real fare evaders!I feel railway companies jump on this because they know they can generate profit.

Thanks to anyone who may reply to this.....

B

Some good advice from others - only thing the occurs to me to ask is if you have any travel insurance (eg annual travel policy you may have bought for a holiday abroad, or something that comes free with your bank account) that might allow you to claim under any 'loss of travel tickets' clause?

Just a thought.

Obv not to detract from pursuing the course of action suggested above ref dialogue with LNER - which seems the way to go.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Not to try to muddy the waters, but is there any chance there was a machine malfunction whereby the return tickets weren’t printed, and they were not in fact thrown away? Did the OP check through the considerable bundle the machine spat out, and do they positively remember seeing the now missing tickets among it? I’m fairly sure I’ve read of such malfunctions on these pages.

 

[Haywain]

Not to try to muddy the waters, but is there any chance there was a machine malfunction whereby the return tickets weren’t printed, and they were not in fact thrown away? Did the OP check through the considerable bundle the machine spat out, and do they positively remember seeing the now missing tickets among it? I’m fairly sure I’ve read of such malfunctions on these pages.

Given that it would be 4 ticket coupons missing and that the OP seems to have received everything else that seems very unlikely.

 

[Master29]

On the balance of probabilities, someone in this situation probably has lost their ticket and probably just needs a bit of a lecture followed up with a “just this time, because I’m nice” spiel at the end.

Absolutely, but why would that be different to any other case. Are you saying the appearance of the OP and their party would make them any less open to ticket fraud?

With walk ups yes, but with Advances isn't it basically a two part ticket?

Of course, but you can still sit anywhere, and it's never questioned by staff if you do.

Indeed. This definitely seems one of the cases where discretion should be shown.

We really need to get all tickets over to barcodes. Then it would be possible to cancel the original and re-issue - though I bet the railway won't do that as it doesn't like good customer service as it costs it money.

That would clearly be the way to go to eliminate this kind of issue.

 

[kermit]

If there were 4 reservation coupons there would be 4 tickets that were missing.

Isn't the OP saying that he and his partner had tickets and reservations on the first leg of the jouney (successfully completed), he thinks he accidentally threw the tickets for the return away along with the used tickets for the first journey, but he still had all 4 reservation coupons, and produced them for the inspector?

 

[66787]

If the advance purchase ticket and the associated reservation are printed on two separate tickets, it does state on the ticket “valid only with reservation number ABC” and on the reservation, “valid only with ticket XYZ”. Much easier when the ticket and reservation come as one.

If a reservation is issued independently of a ticket (for example made for an open ticket, ie an any time return) it states quite clearly “not valid for travel”.

 

[sheff1]

It is not entirely clear whether 2 or 4 people were travelling, but either way I can't see any fare from London to Newcastle which would require a total payment of £525. So where has that figure come from ?

 

[DeverseSam]

It is not entirely clear whether 2 or 4 people were travelling, but either way I can't see any fare from London to Newcastle which would require a total payment of £525. So where has that figure come from ?

2 adults and 2 children ?

 

[Haywain]

It is not entirely clear whether 2 or 4 people were travelling, but either way I can't see any fare from London to Newcastle which would require a total payment of £525. So where has that figure come from ?

The only fare that would appear to come to that is 3 x Anytime Single (SOS) at £175 each.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2022 ==

2 adults and 2 children ?

That's likely to be it.

 

[skyhigh]

It is not entirely clear whether 2 or 4 people were travelling, but either way I can't see any fare from London to Newcastle which would require a total payment of £525. So where has that figure come from ?

2 adults and 2 children ?

Yes, 2 adult and 2 child Anytime Singles at £175 and £87.50 respectively come to £525.