LNER : "this seat may get reserved"

[Justin Smith]

Caught an LNER service from Berwick to Edinburgh (EDB) yesterday, and I am rather troubled by the seat reservation system we came across.

The lady at Berwick reserved us three seats despite the fact we never asked for it, not that I am being critical of her for that.

We got on the train, coach C, and found our seats, but the seat reservation panels did not even say they'd been reserved ! Instead, there was some message like "these seats my get reserved". In fact, all the seats on the train seemed to either be reserved or have that message on them.

The obvious question, particularly if travelling on a rover and possibly changing one's itinerary at the last moment, is how is one supposed to know which seat to sit on without the chance of unwelcome confrontation later in the journey?

I asked what looked like a manager at Edinburgh station and he "proudly" told me 'anyone can reserve a seat at any time using our "app" or at any station'. Furthermore, only one half of one coach (coach C) is un-reservable. He thought it was a great system, which he would of course, I am sure LNER would rather all seats had to be reserved in advance as any business would prefer to know what the demand is for its product as far in advance as possible.

I, on the other hand, was horrified. Life is becoming less and less spontaneous by the day.

 

[transportphoto]

LNER allow customers to reserve a seat up to five minutes prior to departure from any station along the route - subject to the availability of unreserved seats. You’ve benefited from this as a result of the Ticket Office clerk reserving you a seat.

More information is available on their website: https://www.lner.co.uk/travel-information/make-a-reservation/

The obvious question, particularly if travelling on a rover and possibly changing one's itinerary at the last moment, is how is one supposed to know which seat to sit on without the chance of unwelcome confrontation later in the journey ?

You can either find a wholly unreserved seat (green light, Coach C) or reserve yourself a seat (which can be changed to be the one you’re sitting in) from the next station along.

Other than the ‘first come first served’ unreserved seat argument, I too am struggling to see the negatives.

Those taking the old school approach of booking travel in advance can get a seat reservation like they always have. Those travelling on the day can book themselves a seat up to five minutes before departure.

Those travelling on rovers, etc, are a very small minority.

Caught an LNER service from Berwick to EB yesterday

Ps, I’m assuming by “EB” you mean Edinburgh but this isn’t overly clear. Could you clarify in line with the forum rules on abbreviations, etc?

 

[Mainline421]

LNER allow customers to reserve a seat up to five minutes prior to departure from any station along the route - subject to the availability of unreserved seats. You’ve benefited from this as a result of the Ticket Office clerk reserving you a seat.

More information is available on their website: https://www.lner.co.uk/travel-information/make-a-reservation/


You can either find a wholly unreserved seat (green light, Coach C) or reserve yourself a seat (which can be changed to be the one you’re sitting in) from the next station along.

Other than the ‘first come first served’ unreserved seat argument, I too am struggling to see the negatives.

Those taking the old school approach of booking travel in advance can get a seat reservation like they always have. Those travelling on the day can book themselves a seat up to five minutes before departure.

Those travelling on rovers, etc, are a very small minority.


Ps, I’m assuming by “EB” you mean Edinburgh but this isn’t overly clear. Could you clarify in line with the forum rules on abbreviations, etc?

Not everyone wants to reserve a seat (I don't), if I'm given reservations I often don't even check them. The "old school approach" would just be to buy a walk up ticket and get on.

 

[Segedunum]

On nine-car Azuma trains only C03-C42 are left completely unreserved. The rest of that carriage is reservable but is normally done last, so if every light is yellow, it's a safe bet that you'll probably be fine. If there's a smattering of red lights in that section, you could get moved.

The screens don't seem to refresh *that* quickly as I've had a seat automatically reserved for me before when I booked something on my way to the station. Of course, the light above the seat was yellow and somebody was sat in it!

 

[py_megapixel]

On Westbahn in Austria and Germany, they have a similar system, except the staff who check tickets mark seats as reserved for passengers who didn't already have a reservation. They do this by scanning a barcode above the seat with a tablet device. This works quite well, though it does rely on the fact that each coach on Westbahn has its own attendant so you almost always have your ticket checked soon after departure.

Surely in 2024 it must be possible to have some sort of sensor to detect that a seat is occupied and not allow it to be reserved. I think the IC225 sets under Virgin had something like that, though I don't think the data was used by the reservation system, it was just relayed to a page in the onboard WiFi portal or something like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely in 2024 it must be possible to have some sort of sensor to detect that a seat is occupied and not allow it to be reserved. I think the IC225 sets under Virgin had something like that, though I don't think the data was used by the reservation system, it was just relayed to a page in the onboard WiFi portal or something like that.

Pendolinos are now fitted with a system to do that (hence the huge number of cameras along the ceiling - it's not just a well overdone CCTV system!) but I don't know if it's been turned on or not. Allegedly it's AI based and so can tell the difference between a person on a seat and a bag.

 

[Justin Smith]

Other than the ‘first come first served’ unreserved seat argument, I too am struggling to see the negatives.

Not everyone has a smartphone or knows the system, thus it is plainly unfair.
But in any case I strongly disagree that anyone who sits in an unoccupied seat unless is is clearly reserved between two points* should be told to move later in their journey. I very much hope this never happens to me because I do not want the hassle. I would only move if the guard told me to and found me another seat.
You could have a scenario where someone sits down in a seat, and another chap stood next to them in the aisle then uses his smartphone to "reserve" it from under the incumbents bottom, then tells them to move ! No unbiased person would think that right.

* I cannot remember the exact wording but some weasel phrase like "this seat may become reserved" is not acceptable, particularly as that is used on nearly every unreserved seat on the entire train.

 

[Justin Smith]

Surely in 2024 it must be possible to have some sort of sensor to detect that a seat is occupied and not allow it to be reserved. I think the IC225 sets under Virgin had something like that, though I don't think the data was used by the reservation system, it was just relayed to a page in the onboard WiFi portal or something like that.

That would be fairer, though one would hope your seat would not get reserved whilst you're going to the loo !

 

[Justin Smith]

Those travelling on rovers, etc, are a very small minority.

Correct, but people who do not have smart phones and/or do not know how to game the system are not.

If I am honest part of the reason I find all this so desperately depressing is that this is yet another example of all the spontaneity is being sucked out of life. More and more you have to pre-book everything in advance.

 

[transportphoto]

Correct, but people who do not have smart phones and/or do not know how to game the system are not.

With fairness to LNER, announcements at stations often encourage the use of the five minute reservation system - highlighting it is possible at ticket offices. You do not need a smartphone. Increasingly those who do not have a smartphone are doing so by choice rather inability, I guess this is one of the consequences of making that choice.

More and more you have to pre-book everything in advance.

I’d disagree. You can still rock up and jump on a train with a flexible ticket - just like before you won’t be guaranteed a seat when doing so.

 

[Justin Smith]

Justin Smith said:
More and more you have to pre-book everything in advance.

I’d disagree. You can still rock up and jump on a train with a flexible ticket - just like before you won’t be guaranteed a seat when doing so.

That's not true though is it ?
Before if you got on a train the majority of seats were not reserved, and if you sat in one which was not reserved you knew you would be there till you got to your destination.
Now even if the seat is not reserved it appears you may be tipped out of it by someone booking it from under one's bottom.
Will I ever be able to relax on an LNER train again ? That's the question.....

 

[transportphoto]

That's not true though is it ?

You’re not guaranteed a seat with any ticket unless you’ve an accompanying seat reservation. This element has not changed and is the fact to which I refer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’re not guaranteed a seat with any ticket unless you’ve an accompanying seat reservation. This element has not changed and is the fact to which I refer.

Though the thing that has changed is the reliable indication of whether a seat is reserved or not and thus the risk of being turfed out of it. Systems like that on the Pendolinos that can detect if the reserver has shown up or not help though.

 

[takno]

Justin Smith said:
More and more you have to pre-book everything in advance.


That's not true though is it ?
Before if you got on a train the majority of seats were not reserved, and if you sat in one which was not reserved you knew you would be there till you got to your destination.
Now even if the seat is not reserved it appears you may be tipped out of it by someone booking it from under one's bottom.
Will I ever be able to relax on an LNER train again ? That's the question.....

LNER are ensuring through their pricing policy that you have to pre-book everything in advance by making walk-up travel completely unaffordable. Whether they want to do that so that their stupid late reservation system works, or whether they are doing the stupid late reservation in support of their awful pricing policy is largely moot.

 

[Hadders]

LNER want to make all their trains 'reservation compulsory'. They've even set up their trains in industry systems like this forcing you to have a reservation when you buy a ticket onine, from a LNER Travel Centre or an LNER ticket machine.

In reality a reservation isn't needed to travel on a LNER train but if LNER get their way you will need one.

 

[Mainline421]

from a LNER Travel Centre

This is not the case

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is not the case

You can obtain reservations from any booking office, not just an LNER one.

 

[Starmill]

Isn't the reservation system supposed to be live? That is to say if you're sitting in the seat you've just reserved, it will change from the message about being reserved en route to reserved and colour change from yellow to red. That's certainly how GWR's work.

 

[Hadders]

This is not the case

In my experience LNER Travel Centres won't sell a ticket for an LNER train without a reservation.

 

[Starmill]

Though the thing that has changed is the reliable indication of whether a seat is reserved or not and thus the risk of being turfed out of it. Systems like that on the Pendolinos that can detect if the reserver has shown up or not help though.

Surely it hasn't in reality though? It seems more like an error on this train or at this point of sale.

 

[Starmill]

This is not the case

You can obtain reservations from any booking office, not just an LNER one.

I think what Hadders is saying is that they could sell tickets for LNER travel without the reservation, but they may be very reluctant to, or may refuse the sale.

 

[Starmill]

Justin Smith said:
More and more you have to pre-book everything in advance.


That's not true though is it ?
Before if you got on a train the majority of seats were not reserved, and if you sat in one which was not reserved you knew you would be there till you got to your destination.
Now even if the seat is not reserved it appears you may be tipped out of it by someone booking it from under one's bottom.
Will I ever be able to relax on an LNER train again ? That's the question.....

If the light is green, it can't be reserved. Worth noting CrossCountry have the same thing on Voyager services, but without the colour light indicator, so you have to read the message. If it says available it won't be reserved later.

 

[Hadders]

I think what Hadders is saying is that they could sell tickets for LNER travel without the reservation, but they may be very reluctant to, or may refuse the sale.

Correct. As far as LNER are concerned theor trains are marked as 'reservations compulsory'. They won't sell you a ticket without a reservation.

 

[Mainline421]

In my experience LNER Travel Centres won't sell a ticket for an LNER train without a reservation.

I didn't receive (or ask for) a reservation last time I visited one in September (admittedly my train was leaving in <5 minutes).

Correct. As far as LNER are concerned theor trains are marked as 'reservations compulsory'. They won't sell you a ticket without a reservation.

They definitely can and will. Not only would would it be a breach of TSA, but this is LNER's official advice to buy a ticket when reservations are sold out.

 

[Hadders]

For the avoidance of doubt I don't want to see compulsory reservations on trains.

They definitely can and will. Not only would would it be a breach of TSA, but this is LNER's official advice to buy a ticket when reservations are sold out.

Where does it say this? As I said upthread, in my experience a LNER Travel Centre will not sell you a ticket if they can't give you a seat reservation to go with it.

LNER's website says:

LNER Support

www.lner.co.uk

Do I still need a seat reservation?


Yes. Even during engineering work, you must have a reservation to travel on any LNER service. These can be made up to five minutes before departure either online or by visiting one of our Travel Centres.

While there are unreserved seats on LNER trains, and there's nothing to stop someone obtaining a ticket from other channels without a reservation (eg a ticket machine without journey planning software) it is clear that LNER want to move to a reservation compulsory system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that page is all somewhat out of date and dates back to COVID.

Specifically this bit was a COVID policy:

We are introducing reservation only travel to ensure a safe number of customers are on each of our train services.

• Reservation only travel will be in place until further notice. During this time existing seat reservations remain valid but will no longer be linked to a specific seat number.
• We're asking you to choose your own seat onboard following our guidance and we are working to provide you with an improved solution that will give you a designated seat number, in the coming weeks.

But also:

If all reservable seats have been taken, there are a number of unreserved seats in coach C in Standard and coaches M or E in First Class.

This means that if you don't have a seat reservation you'll still be able to travel in the unreserved part of the train.

If all unreserved seats are taken, you may need to stand until a seat becomes available.

 

[800001]

Isn't the reservation system supposed to be live? That is to say if you're sitting in the seat you've just reserved, it will change from the message about being reserved en route to reserved and colour change from yellow to red. That's certainly how GWR's work.

No, once reservations are loaded on at origin station, the only way reservations update after that is if train managers manually go on to the on board train management system and refresh the reservations. That should in theory update the onboard systems.

I believe there is work ongoing in the back ground to make the Azuma auto update when people make a reservation once train has departed its origin.

 

[Mainline421]

Where does it say this? As I said upthread, in my experience a LNER Travel Centre will not sell you a ticket if they can't give you a seat reservation to go with it.

Here, when you select a train without any reservations left.


If any have actually refused sale a complaint needs to be raised with LNER! I've not had any problems personally

 

[peteb]

I don't have an issue with seat reservations per se however reserving seats once a train is in motion does indeed risk turfing someone out of their seat mid journey who until that moment was sitting there legitimately.

This could be problematic for someone with kids, luggage, a dog, or a laptop connected to zoom and in the middle of a meeting.

Not to mention potential for seat rage but also the H&S implications of having to move luggage etc whilst the train is in motion.

Imagine the accident claim:.."I was safely seated when required to move myself and my luggage, and whilst doing so the train jolted and I fell and broke my (insert as applicable)!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to mention potential for seat rage but also the H&S implications of having to move luggage etc whilst the train is in motion.

Imagine the accident claim:.."I was safely seated when required to move myself and my luggage, and whilst doing so the train jolted and I fell and broke my (insert as applicable)!

This is overtalking the issue somewhat. Trains are designed to be able to move around them safely while in motion.

It's an annoyance, that's all. But it does have benefits - for instance, being able to reserve seats right up to departure and separate from ticket purchase makes the "Kings Cross scrum" rather less of an issue than the "Euston scrum".