• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

LNER Stevenage Pickup/Setdown

Status
Not open for further replies.

AJD

Member
Joined
20 Jan 2013
Messages
66
Sorry, but as soon as you start quoting that particular person, the entire post is worthless. It would be like quoting the Daily Mail as a source for Wikipedia articles.

----

As for staff being barred from boarding a LNER service at Stevenage, if they are off-duty and not in uniform, how would other passengers know they are a member of staff etc.

The source may not be to everyone's liking but in this case it's true. I've seen the original letter sent to the LNER MD.
To be honest, and as a driver who lives along the route myself, I don't see how ASLEF can force them to change their stance on this. It's all to do with 45 second dwell times allocated to Stevenage stops instead of the minimum 90 second dwell required for pick and set down.

I feel for them, but it looks like many along the LNER route are being stitched up with the new timetable one way or another.

Some one mentioned being in breach of the H&S at work act and I too am curious how they're using that one to argue their case. As many already know, there is a list of trains that are restricted when it comes to staff travel and I expect all they'll do is add London to Stevenage to those restrictions. It was brought up in a "meet the manager" sort of event that if the GTR network was in disruption status then LNER would allow people to board and alight services that would be otherwise restricted.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
5,078
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
The source may not be to everyone's liking but in this case it's true. I've seen the original letter sent to the LNER MD.
To be honest, and as a driver who lives along the route myself, I don't see how ASLEF can force them to change their stance on this. It's all to do with 45 second dwell times allocated to Stevenage stops instead of the minimum 90 second dwell required for pick and set down.

I feel for them, but it looks like many along the LNER route are being stitched up with the new timetable one way or another.

Some one mentioned being in breach of the H&S at work act and I too am curious how they're using that one to argue their case. As many already know, there is a list of trains that are restricted when it comes to staff travel and I expect all they'll do is add London to Stevenage to those restrictions. It was brought up in a "meet the manager" sort of event that if the GTR network was in disruption status then LNER would allow people to board and alight services that would be otherwise restricted.
Most Stevenage stoppers look have 120s dwells at Stevenage in December timetable, so that seems an odd thing for LNER to be putting out! Can they even plan for 45 seconds given timings only go to half minutes, its not as though they are alternating stops in quick succession like London Midland(?) did.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y11886/2026-03-13/detailed 1N05 2mins
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C41125/2026-03-13/detailed 1Y03 2 mins
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y11798/2026-03-13/detailed 1D27 2 mins etc
 

AJD

Member
Joined
20 Jan 2013
Messages
66
God knows. What was briefed out from operations was that a regular stop would require a minimum of 90 seconds booked dwell but if it were limited to pick up or set down only then that could be halved.

Guards are being encouraged to make announcements encouraging passengers to leave the train as quickly as possible and remain behind the yellow line so the dispatch can be done within that time frame.

Good luck with that is all I'll say.
Most Stevenage stoppers look have 120s dwells at Stevenage in December timetable, so that seems an odd thing for LNER to be putting out! Can they even plan for 45 seconds given timings only go to half minutes, its not as though they are alternating stops in quick succession like London Midland(?) did.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y11886/2026-03-13/detailed 1N05 2mins
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C41125/2026-03-13/detailed 1Y03 2 mins
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y11798/2026-03-13/detailed 1D27 2 mins etc
 

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,218
I seem to recall that making long distance trains stopping at Stevenage available to all came along not that long ago, possibly one of the previous franchisees, and was essentially an Orcats Raid on London to Stevenage revenue which previously went fully to the local operator, without any extra costs. Can it be that with this new arrangement that revenue will be lost to LNER?

I've myself travelled on the about 1800 Kings Cross to Leeds, been unable to get a seat at Kings Cross, and then found half the passengers left at Stevenage, them not only having taken the seats previously but when disembarking pushing arrogantly past the long distance passengers stuck in the vestibule as if they were a nuisance.
 

Ellwill

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2021
Messages
155
Location
Medway
Sorry, but as soon as you start quoting that particular person, the entire post is worthless. It would be like quoting the Daily Mail as a source for Wikipedia articles.
Political opinions aside, I would remark that anyone quoting anonymous sources should be taken with more than a grain of salt.

Just a couple of days ago he asserted via an EMR source that the 810s probably wouldn't see passenger service this side of the timetable change...
 

87electric

Established Member
Joined
27 Jan 2010
Messages
1,243
Unfortunately we already know which approach will be taken, certainly when boarding at Stevenage, because it has been demonstrated with two TOCs before. We know from Hull Trains and Lumo that staff bark at those trying to board “set down only.”
I think you got barked at trying to board Lumo at Stevenage. It isn’t a welcome feeling at all.
 

KatieLouLou

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
58
Political opinions aside, I would remark that anyone quoting anonymous sources should be taken with more than a grain of salt.

Just a couple of days ago he asserted via an EMR source that the 810s probably wouldn't see passenger service this side of the timetable change...
Presumably the actual reason for the pick up and set down only stops, which I don't think anyone seems to have picked up on yet, is that Stevenage becomes part of project Oval at the timetable change meaning contactless becomes available and I guess LNER are not set up for checking contactless payment cards on board as they have no other routes where contactless is an available ticket type. Therefore by making the stops pick up or set down, you solve that problem...
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,227
Presumably the actual reason for the pick up and set down only stops, which I don't think anyone seems to have picked up on yet, is that Stevenage becomes part of project Oval at the timetable change meaning contactless becomes available and I guess LNER are not set up for checking contactless payment cards on board as they have no other routes where contactless is an available ticket type. Therefore by making the stops pick up or set down, you solve that problem...
That assumption has been discussed at length in earlier threads, but I can’t remember if there was a definite answer.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,097
Stevenage is my local station and I've been quite vocal about this issue on here. Apologies in advance for the long post, but this is a summary of the situation as I understand it.

Firstly, why is LNER doing this. No-one really knows 100% but there are three theories:

1. Making the new timetable 'work'
This, at least publically, is what LNER are saying. Saving 45 seconds at each Stevenage call means apparently make the timetable more robust. LNER told the local MP that there is only an average of 15 people alighting from each of their trains at Stevenage - if it is so low then why do they need the restriction?

2. LNER do not want to be involved in Project Oval
LNER has been involved in Project Oval discussions for years so it does seem strange if they do not want to be part of it. Even ore so when they are a nationalised operator with the money all going to the same pot! It's even more strange when you consider that LNER has sold cheaper 'LNER only' fares for years.

LNER will get a share of the ORCATS revenue so they will lose this when their trains go pick-up/set down only.

3. LNER do not want 'Stevenage commuters' packing out their long distance trains
This really isn't a thing. I regularly travel on the 17:33 or 18:33 LNER trains from Kings Cross and they are best described as 'fresh air expresses'. The unreserved coach C generally less than a third full upon leaving Kings Cross (I've been counting for the last few weeks...)

Furthermore, many more people are boarding/alighting at Stevenage to make journeys to/from the north. Everyone boarding northbound or alighting southbound means an empty seat between Stevenage and Kings Cross.

How will it all work?
It seems to me that this simply cannot be effectively enforced.

The ECML through Stevenage is paired by direction. There are two island platforms - platforms 1 and 2 share island at which all southbound trains call. Platforms 3 and 4 ahre the other island platform at which the northbound trains call. LNER has no staff at Stevenage station so it'll be up to GTR's staff to enforce it.

Stevenage has a 'turn up and go' service to London. There are 4 fast Thameslink trains and 2 stoppers an hour to London plus 2 LNER trains in most hours. People simply board the first train that arrives. That includes LNER, especially when Thameslink is delayed. The trains will still call because people from the north will need to alight. These trains are 9-cars long filling the whole length of the platform. Local door operation isn't an option. Even if staff start shouting at customers (is that really the sort of railway we want?) I suspect people will just get on, especially when there are delays. In theory, a ticket check can take place (the reality is they don't given the short time between Stevenage and Kings Cross). A ticket block could be done upon arrival at Kings Cross but that's not going to go down well with people who have travelled long distances just to catch a few errant Stevenage passengers.

Northbound is easier to enforce becasue Stevenage won't be shown as a calling point on the departure board. Of course, those 'in the know' will just get on and in my experience ticket checks between Kings Cross and Stevenage don't happen.

Lumo being pick-up/set down only at Stevenage was mentioned upthread. Their trains are shorter and generally at the extremes of the day so less of an issue. Also, they've never conveyed passengers between Kings Cross and Stevenage unlike LNER who have actively encouranged passengers only to now say they don't want them.

LNER senior management recently held a 'meet the manager' session at Stevenage station alongside the local MP. I went along and voiced my concern about how practical pick-up/set down restrictions were. They told me that it works at Watford Junction and Reading. Watford Junction has a different track layout compared to Stevenage (paired by use rather than direction) which makes enforcement easier. At Reading it's a handful of trains a day.

We should also consider what happens during disruption (today being an excellent example). LNER is needed to move people when Thameslink throw in the towel. I raised this point at the meet the manager session and it seemed to me that it was something they hadn't even considered!

The local MP has been quite vocal about this and I know he has met @David Horne in person about it. LNER instructing their staff to abide by the restrictions suggests they are concerned about adverse publicity.

I've yet to meet anyone who things this is a good idea....
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,253
Given today's Thameslink timetable collapse, I wonder if LNER will help out with open calls in the event of disruption taking out the Thameslink services.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,097
Given today's Thameslink timetable collapse, I wonder if LNER will help out with open calls in the event of disruption taking out the Thameslink services.
This is a very good point and something the LNER managers I spoke to at Stevenage at the meet the manager event didn't have an answer to.

I
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,097
Do GTR staff enforce the rules on these services?
There certainly aren't any Lumo staff to do it.

Northbound won't be an issue and the soutbound calls are at:

00:24
15:20
20:18

In the grand scheme of things that's not really an issue.

By comparison there are 31 LNER trains in each direction that will go pick-up/set down only.
 

mm333

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2008
Messages
776
Location
53.8331°N 1.7734°W
Given today's Thameslink timetable collapse, I wonder if LNER will help out with open calls in the event of disruption taking out the Thameslink services.

LNER were accepting GN/TL tickets from London this afternoon. If that happens from the 14th, the LNER pick-up only calls at Stevenage won’t be on the departure boards at Kings’s Cross unless someone manually alters the PIS.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
19,789
Location
East Anglia
I have never known staff enforce anything on staff regardless of the company they work for or whether on duty or not. It’s not the railway way.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,726
Location
Worcester
Do GTR staff enforce the rules on these services?
There certainly aren't any Lumo staff to do it.

Northbound won't be an issue and the soutbound calls are at:

00:24
15:20
20:18

In the grand scheme of things that's not really an issue.

By comparison there are 31 LNER trains in each direction that will go pick-up/set down only.
I boarded Lumo at Stevenage (shortly after its inception) and the customer ambassador called me out over the PA, describing me by clothing which made the whole train stare, and said the train wouldn’t leave until I got off. Making me think - what on earth is the point of going to such extremities just to make sure I didn’t make a Stevenage London trip?

Someone new to the railway desperate for a bit of a power trip, I assume.
 

mickey

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
668
I boarded Lumo at Stevenage (shortly after its inception) and the customer ambassador called me out over the PA, describing me by clothing which made the whole train stare, and said the train wouldn’t leave until I got off. Making me think - what on earth is the point of going to such extremities just to make sure I didn’t make a Stevenage London trip?

Someone new to the railway desperate for a bit of a power trip, I assume.
Or someone who realises that the Lumo operation (and therefore their job at an open access operator) relies on revenue being earnt, which there couldn’t be for your journey. IIRC it was a licence condition as well, so needs to be enforced.

It always astonishes me how little people understand about commercial reality, or how money is made. Even under GBR, there’ll be a need to account properly for revenue accrued by business unit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I have never known staff enforce anything on staff regardless of the company they work for or whether on duty or not. It’s not the railway way.
It’ll certainly be interesting to see whether any disciplinary cases are put forward, after all it’s not as if managers travelling on those trains can’t see out of the window.
 

speedy1

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2023
Messages
302
Location
Mossley
It always astonishes me how little people understand about commercial reality, or how money is made. Even under GBR, there’ll be a need to account properly for revenue accrued by business unit.
Well, excuse TT-ONR-NRN for just being a passenger trying to get somewhere (to possibly contribute to GDP) and not preoccupying himself with the profit-maximisation mechanisms of our frustrating fragmented railway.

What a bad little citizen!
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
7,806
Being pick up only northbound makes sense. It stops Stevenage commuters grabbing all of the unreserved seats resulting in long distance passengers having to stand for the first part of their journey.

But southbound, if folk get on at Stevenage they are just occupying otherwise empty space. Just as long as they aren't able to make seat reservations and kick others out a previously unreserved seat.

As an aside, having seats switch from unreserved to reserved mid-journey is annoying.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,497
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
Well, excuse TT-ONR-NRN for just being a passenger trying to get somewhere

That treatment was certainly over the top, and unnecessary, but at the same time, did they not knowingly board a train at an unadvertised stop?

For LNER staff who currently use their own train between Kings X and Stevenage, but will no longer be allowed to; Will using other services mean having to pay for this whereas LNER was free?
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
5,021
I'd like to think this change is to stop overcrowding between Kings Cross and Stevenage. I do however suspect that stopping the ability for using Stevenage as a split ticket point may have been a key factors..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I boarded Lumo at Stevenage (shortly after its inception) and the customer ambassador called me out over the PA, describing me by clothing which made the whole train stare, and said the train wouldn’t leave until I got off. Making me think - what on earth is the point of going to such extremities just to make sure I didn’t make a Stevenage London trip?

Someone new to the railway desperate for a bit of a power trip, I assume.
How do expect the staff to be able to identify you except by clothing?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,726
Location
Worcester
How do expect the staff to be able to identify you except by clothing?
What sort of question is that?

It's pathetic enough that they made the effort to hold the train and use the tannoy to try and force me off, but the fact that they chose to say "the younger guy in the blue coat and black hat" as opposed to just "the guy who got on," is really quite something.

Anyway, that was Lumo staff, so how LNER react is quite another matter.
 

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
5,935
Being pick up only northbound makes sense. It stops Stevenage commuters grabbing all of the unreserved seats resulting in long distance passengers having to stand for the first part of their journey.
Hadders addressed that as part of post #40:
3. LNER do not want 'Stevenage commuters' packing out their long distance trains
This really isn't a thing. I regularly travel on the 17:33 or 18:33 LNER trains from Kings Cross and they are best described as 'fresh air expresses'. The unreserved coach C generally less than a third full upon leaving Kings Cross (I've been counting for the last few weeks...)

Furthermore, many more people are boarding/alighting at Stevenage to make journeys to/from the north. Everyone boarding northbound or alighting southbound means an empty seat between Stevenage and Kings Cross.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,726
Location
Worcester
Being pick up only northbound makes sense. It stops Stevenage commuters grabbing all of the unreserved seats resulting in long distance passengers having to stand for the first part of their journey.

But southbound, if folk get on at Stevenage they are just occupying otherwise empty space. Just as long as they aren't able to make seat reservations and kick others out a previously unreserved seat.

As an aside, having seats switch from unreserved to reserved mid-journey is annoying.
Hadders addressed that as part of post #40:
I do think it's quite an obvious thing to reserve a seat on such journeys when booking. If people decide not to, then rock up at the last minute, and then must stand for twenty minutes, I'd hardly be devastated for them.
 

sprunt

Established Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
1,624
As for staff being barred from boarding a LNER service at Stevenage, if they are off-duty and not in uniform, how would other passengers know they are a member of staff etc.

They wouldn't need to know they are staff for it to cause conflict, they would just see someone being allowed onto the train when they are not. If anything I think them being in uniform would provoke less conflict - nobody reasonable would object o an identifiable staff member joining a train even if it were somewhere passengers couldn't board.

Don't LNER staff get (at least some) free travel on LNER services?
Therefore anyone travelling between Stevenage and London in the future may have to pay?

I assume the LNER argument here would be that they don't offer a service between Stevenage and London so the staff should have been travelling on different trains (and paying) all along.
 

Royston Vasey

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Cambridge
I'd like to think this change is to stop overcrowding between Kings Cross and Stevenage. I do however suspect that stopping the ability for using Stevenage as a split ticket point may have been a key factors..
Stevenage isn't a common split point for long distance journeys, in my experience (since they offer lots of good "and connections" tickets from GN and GA stations) - splits offered are usually further up the ECML.

That is, with the notable exception of splits involving LNER advances KGX-SVG. They have offered cheap advances to undercut GN/TL by pennies for years so if "Stevenage commuters" have been taking seats it's their own bloody fault!

With splitting now mainstream, lots of customers will have ended up travelling with these and changing at Stevenage for GN destinations.

They could probably have solved this largely by not offering advance fares for this 20 minute journey.
 

Ellwill

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2021
Messages
155
Location
Medway
Being pick up only northbound makes sense. It stops Stevenage commuters grabbing all of the unreserved seats resulting in long distance passengers having to stand for the first part of their journey.

But southbound, if folk get on at Stevenage they are just occupying otherwise empty space. Just as long as they aren't able to make seat reservations and kick others out a previously unreserved seat.

As an aside, having seats switch from unreserved to reserved mid-journey is annoying.
ODM data between 18-19 & 23-24 indicates that passenger journeys between KGX and SVG have effectively halved since Covid (929,594 down to 407,626) whereas journeys to EDB have increased by approximately 59% over the same period (627,298 up to 999,376).

Though it's not a perfect way of measuring passenger flows, it's a pretty good indicator that the issue isn't necessarily the number of Stevenage commuters, but rather the the few seats they do take up being sorely needed for the increased numbers of long distance passengers using the service.
 

cats_five

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2021
Messages
228
Location
Scotland
"Saving 45 seconds at each Stevenage call means apparently make the timetable more robust."

It's more than 45 seconds. The train has to slow down to stop and then accelerate back to line speed, that's not instant. And might it have to change tracks to let a following service not stopping overtake it?
 

Tester

Established Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
1,656
Location
Watford
"Saving 45 seconds at each Stevenage call means apparently make the timetable more robust."

It's more than 45 seconds. The train has to slow down to stop and then accelerate back to line speed, that's not instant. And might it have to change tracks to let a following service not stopping overtake it?
The train is still stopping
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,076
Location
Wilmslow
"Saving 45 seconds at each Stevenage call means apparently make the timetable more robust."

It's more than 45 seconds. The train has to slow down to stop and then accelerate back to line speed, that's not instant. And might it have to change tracks to let a following service not stopping overtake it?
It’s unchanged in the working timetable at two minutes. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-payment-cards.231684/page-61#post-7559550

If the train is running early in the up direction, then it can leave early. But how often does this actually happen?
In the down direction it might be hoped that the absence of people leaving will speed up the station call, but it’s still got to leave at the public departure time, not before.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top