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LNER delay repay investigation

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jenny73

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Hi all, I travel regularly from Newcastle to London for work, using LNER. I travel on irregular days, at different times depending on needs. I have encountered a number of delays in there journeys and submitted claims. I got a letter (email) today saying there had been irregularities in my claims and asked me to submit evidence or pay. When I called up the advice line they were very quick to tell me they would prosecute for fraud unless I could provide evidence of the trains I was on, I travel on open tickets so this is difficult.
I am currently heavily pregnant and was getting very stressed so just paid the money. I now feel really stupid as I have made myself look guilty, when I just don’t have the energy to go through this process right now. Has anyone gone through anything similar with LNER? Essentially I would like them to leave me alone now but worried they will follow-up

Thanks!
 
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WesternLancer

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Hi all, I travel regularly from Newcastle to London for work, using LNER. I travel on irregular days, at different times depending on needs. I have encountered a number of delays in there journeys and submitted claims. I got a letter (email) today saying there had been irregularities in my claims and asked me to submit evidence or pay. When I called up the advice line they were very quick to tell me they would prosecute for fraud unless I could provide evidence of the trains I was on, I travel on open tickets so this is difficult.
I am currently heavily pregnant and was getting very stressed so just paid the money. I now feel really stupid as I have made myself look guilty, when I just don’t have the energy to go through this process right now. Has anyone gone through anything similar with LNER? Essentially I would like them to leave me alone now but worried they will follow-up

Thanks!
This is bad. Can you advise how much they asked you to pay.
EDIT - post made before further details outlined as below
 
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jenny73

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In what way is this bad? I’m panicking, I just wanted it dealt with as I don’t want to be thinking about it right now
 
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Hadders

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Welcome to the forum!

It is difficult to comment as we could really do with more details about your journeys and tickets. I've not come across this sort of thing with LNER but other train companies (Greater Anglia springs to mind) have done similar exercises.

It seems LNER believe you have claimed for delays on trains you haven't travelled on. It would be interesting to know:
  • What format of tickets did you use? E-ticket (which has a barcode like a QR code) or an orange credit card sized ticket?
  • Exactly what type of ticket did you use? LNER don't have 'open' tickets between Newcastle and London. Since last year they have Anytime, Flex and Advance. Anytime can be used on any train. Flex is tied to a specific train but you can take any train 70 minutes either side of the booked train (you don't need to get a new reservation although they recommend doing so). Advance tickets can only be used on the booked train.
  • Were your tickets scanned onboard (which would show which train you were on)?
  • Were your tickets scanned at the gateline to enter/exit at Kings Cross/Newcastle? While this would not be 100% conclusive the scan times would potentially link you to a particular train.
  • When you purchased your ticket you'd have been given a seat reservation. Did you travel on these train or a different ones?
 

ainsworth74

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Okay let's take a deep breath. This isn't nice but nothing disastrous has happened yet so please don't stress yourself!

Could you tell us a bit more about what's happened? @Hadders has given you a great guide to what we need to know to help.
 

Hadders

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Some other thoughts:

  • Have you claimed a refund rather than delay repay? A refund is appropriate if you abandon your journey due to disruption. If you tarvel and are delayed by more than 30 minutes then you can claim Delay Repay. The two things are different but I have come across people claiming a refund rather than delay repay.
  • An Anytime Single between Newcastle and London costs £200.80. is this the ticket you've been using? If so a 30 minute delay would entitle you to claim half of this amount (i.e. c.£100) So if you've paid £600 to LNER, assuming an admin fee of, say, £150 I estimate the disputed claims are around £450. A high amount but potentially only four claims. Assuming my understanding of the tickets you've been using is correct. Fare would have been a little cheaper last year as they went up in March.
 

jenny73

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Hi thanks so much for responding:
-paper credit card style
-open single tickets
-tickets not scanned on board, just marked or punched
- sometimes scanned at gate, sometimes not
- I did book reservations but I never really get my reserved trains, as this is for work and my shield changes to much.

Honestly at this point, although very annoying, I’m happy to just lose the money to be rid of the hassle.

I’m assuming, perhaps incorrectly, now they have their money, they will just leave it but the stress is really affecting me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Some other thoughts:

  • Have you claimed a refund rather than delay repay? A refund is appropriate if you abandon your journey due to disruption. If you tarvel and are delayed by more than 30 minutes then you can claim Delay Repay. The two things are different but I have come across people claiming a refund rather than delay repay.
  • An Anytime Single between Newcastle and London costs £200.80. is this the ticket you've been using? If so a 30 minute delay would entitle you to claim half of this amount (i.e. c.£100) So if you've paid £600 to LNER, assuming an admin fee of, say, £150 I estimate the disputed claims are around £450. A high amount but potentially only four claims. Assuming my understanding of the tickets you've been using is correct. Fare would have been a little cheaper last year as they went up in March.
No just delay repay. Some journeys were 30 min delayed, some 60 mins. I do the journey 6-10 times a month and have claimed 8 times over the past year.
 

Hadders

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If you've paid money to LNER then they won't take any further action against you.

8 claims over a 12 month period doesn't seem excessive to me but it'll be difficult to challenge this with them now given that you've paid up.
 

jenny73

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Thanks! I actually have 2 claims waiting to be paid from delays in the last 2 weeks, I imagine they will come for me for these. The difficulty is I have no ‘evidence’ as they are open tickets and I just go when works for me.

I feel so silly for not challenging it as there are so many delays I haven’t claimed even bothered claiming for!

I just feel very vulnerable and receiving a big scary letter talking about prosecution made me think it’s easier to just lose the money.
 

AlterEgo

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Thanks! I actually have 2 claims waiting to be paid from delays in the last 2 weeks, I imagine they will come for me for these. The difficulty is I have no ‘evidence’ as they are open tickets and I just go when works for me.

I feel so silly for not challenging it as there are so many delays I haven’t claimed even bothered claiming for!

I just feel very vulnerable and receiving a big scary letter talking about prosecution made me think it’s easier to just lose the money.
But if you’re not guilty of any fraud, I don’t understand why you would:

a) pay them whatever they like, and
b) not seem angry at your integrity being questioned.
 

jenny73

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But if you’re not guilty of any fraud, I don’t understand why you would:

a) pay them whatever they like, and
b) not seem angry at your integrity being questioned.
I totally understand what you are saying! I think I’m just so stressed right now that my mind just went to what’s the quickest way to make this go away. As I said I feel so stupid in hindsight but can’t take it back now. I’m just terrified of having to deal with stress/legal issues when I could go into labour at any moment
 

Pushpit

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I totally understand what you are saying! I think I’m just so stressed right now that my mind just went to what’s the quickest way to make this go away. As I said I feel so stupid in hindsight but can’t take it back now. I’m just terrified of having to deal with stress/legal issues when I could go into labour at any moment
If LNER has accepted a sum to repay fraudulent travel then that's the end of the matter. The two out-standing claims are presumably not part of the £599 you have already paid, so they can check these through.

You will perhaps appreciate that the quality and usefulness of advice here is directly linked to the specifics of your travel. So, as an example, if you did nothing wrong in the two claims pending, then we're going to say "you have nothing to worry about, just confirm your details". If, on the other hand, there is more to this then you may well get a different answer. £599 seems a lot of money for doing nothing wrong.

However two things are completely sure: you won't be prosecuted under the Fraud Act, it just doesn't happen. And whatever sum you have paid so far will deal with the trips made.
 

AlterEgo

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However two things are completely sure: you won't be prosecuted under the Fraud Act, it just doesn't happen.
For delay repay fraud cases this is the only offence applicable, and this can and does happen. This one was for about £1,000 or so: https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co....e-trains-delay-repay-fraudster-jailed-claims/

And whatever sum you have paid so far will deal with the trips made.
This is true; if the money has been paid then the suspect trips have been dealt with.
 

Jan Mayen

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Going forward, I would suggest you keep a written record of delays, perhaps in a diary? Also keep the tickets. Perhaps just stick them in an envelope, marked "delay repay-keep for at least a year".
Next time they write, your answer can be "Travelled on 1000 Kings Cross to Newcastle, arrived 33 minutes late due to signal issues. I have the tickets, what else do you need?"
 

jenny73

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Thanks! Full transparency, one claim submitted for last week is false, I don’t know why I did this and wish I could take it back but all others are legitimate.

I guess this is why I immediately (overpaid) the fine. I’m worried they will really scrutinise the 2 pending payment, again, I’m happy to just pay the money back. It was a really stupid thing to do and I feel awful.

I just really don’t want to be prosecuted, I will pay any fine.
 

AlterEgo

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Going forward, I would suggest you keep a written record of delays, perhaps in a diary? Also keep the tickets. Perhaps just stick them in an envelope, marked "delay repay-keep for at least a year".
Next time they write, your answer can be "Travelled on 1000 Kings Cross to Newcastle, arrived 33 minutes late due to signal issues. I have the tickets, what else do you need?"
No, the answer to any trips claimed and paid out, is simply “no comment”, or not to reply at all. Note that answering in the way you suggest does not defend oneself against delay repay fraud allegations - that’s what you’d have said in the first place when making a fraudulent claim. The whole point is the statement is a lie; that’s the fraud.

Cannot emphasise enough the value of shutting up - whether innocent or guilty - when confronted out of the blue with questions about fraud or wrongdoing, especially when your answers are made without legal advice and can be admissible as evidence.
 

Pushpit

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Thanks! Full transparency, one claim submitted for last week is false, I don’t know why I did this and wish I could take it back but all others are legitimate.

I guess this is why I immediately (overpaid) the fine. I’m worried they will really scrutinise the 2 pending payment, again, I’m happy to just pay the money back. It was a really stupid thing to do and I feel awful.

I just really don’t want to be prosecuted, I will pay any fine.
Well as I think you now appreciate, this is the worse of all worlds. You've told LNER you have made £599 of false claims, when you haven't, and yet you have one false claim still pending and at risk of investigation.

I think the two options are
- do nothing and do not respond to any LNER further letters about the next 2 claims. LNER may not action these claims anyway, but this is no longer under your control.
- go back to LNER and be 100% honest with them.

Personally I think the first approach is now dangerous since you have put the defence in jeopardy, and so I'm tending to the second approach. That said, probably LNER will just want some more money if you have been so obliging. @AlterEgo ?
 

Pushpit

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I know I feel so stupid, I don’t why I did it. I regret it so much, I’ve been stupid.
OK, well it's a lot of money, yes, but the bigger picture here is you are at this stage supposed to be enjoying one of the most pivotal stages of your life. And it is understandable that things happen, when at other times you would have taken a different approach.

Maybe - as a technique here - this is something where you write a letter to LNER - which you deliberately do not send. Just put it away somewhere and look it at a later stage when the pressure is off. This isn't the most important thing, put in context.
 

AlterEgo

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Well as I think you now appreciate, this is the worse of all worlds. You've told LNER you have made £599 of false claims, when you haven't, and yet you have one false claim still pending and at risk of investigation.

I think the two options are
- do nothing and do not respond to any LNER further letters about the next 2 claims. LNER may not action these claims anyway, but this is no longer under your control.
- go back to LNER and be 100% honest with them.

Personally I think the first approach is now dangerous since you have put the defence in jeopardy, and so I'm tending to the second approach. That said, probably LNER will just want some more money if you have been so obliging. @AlterEgo ?
The OP mentions having already paid the money so the matter on the old claims is effectively closed. It was unwise for the OP to pay all that money - they could have just admitted one claim was fraudulent (this is the one which will have triggered LNER questioning all the claims), because if that’s the truth then it’s the only one LNER could possibly have evidence of misuse. Now, if the other two claims get questioned I think they'll have little choice but to pay those back too. This is why being truthful matters; if you overcompensate and admit to every wrong-doing ever, your integrity is destroyed.
 

WesternLancer

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Going forward, I would suggest you keep a written record of delays, perhaps in a diary? Also keep the tickets. Perhaps just stick them in an envelope, marked "delay repay-keep for at least a year".
Next time they write, your answer can be "Travelled on 1000 Kings Cross to Newcastle, arrived 33 minutes late due to signal issues. I have the tickets, what else do you need?"
And take a timed picture of the ticket ideally on the train include a bit of carriage furnishings in the image even. Take a photo of the station clock as you alight which effectively shows the delay.

I travel on the sorts of tickets the op uses all the time. Trad paper tickets. No e ticket code at all. They just would have to take it in trust what train I was on.

But I’d never ring up any railway staff to discuss something like this. I’d respond in writing which allows you to carefully consider your words.

Having said that the op has extenuating personal circumstances due to pregnancy.

Edit. I posted the above before reading about the op’s erroneous claim. So my points are only valid as a general approach to adopt. Theres other more pertinent advice in the thread.
 

Pushpit

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The OP mentions having already paid the money so the matter on the old claims is effectively closed. It was unwise for the OP to pay all that money - they could have just admitted one claim was fraudulent (this is the one which will have triggered LNER questioning all the claims), because if that’s the truth then it’s the only one LNER could possibly have evidence of misuse. Now, if the other two claims get questioned I think they'll have little choice but to pay those back too. This is why being truthful matters; if you overcompensate and admit to every wrong-doing ever, your integrity is destroyed.
I agree.

Jenny, I would focus on your pregnancy, but if LNER reverts in the meantime, please do check here first, and include the wording of LNER's communications. Do not reply or ring without getting advice.
 

jenny73

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OK, well it's a lot of money, yes, but the bigger picture here is you are at this stage supposed to be enjoying one of the most pivotal stages of your life. And it is understandable that things happen, when at other times you would have taken a different approach.

Maybe - as a technique here - this is something where you write a letter to LNER - which you deliberately do not send. Just put it away somewhere and look it at a later stage when the pressure is off. This isn't the most important thing, put in context.
Thank you so much for your kindness. This really isn’t like me at all. I am going to take your advice and write them a letter and pop it in a drawer.

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I agree.

Jenny, I would focus on your pregnancy, but if LNER reverts in the meantime, please do check here first, and include the wording of LNER's communications. Do not reply or ring without getting advice.
Thank you! I will, I’m hoping they get to me sooner rather than later

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The OP mentions having already paid the money so the matter on the old claims is effectively closed. It was unwise for the OP to pay all that money - they could have just admitted one claim was fraudulent (this is the one which will have triggered LNER questioning all the claims), because if that’s the truth then it’s the only one LNER could possibly have evidence of misuse. Now, if the other two claims get questioned I think they'll have little choice but to pay those back too. This is why being truthful matters; if you overcompensate and admit to every wrong-doing ever, your integrity is destroyed.
Thanks, I will be happy to pay if contacted. I will post here should I receive anything

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thank you everyone for your wise words and kindness. I have never been in this position before and wish I’d stumbled across this forum immediately upon receiving the email, rather than reacting

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

No, the answer to any trips claimed and paid out, is simply “no comment”, or not to reply at all. Note that answering in the way you suggest does not defend oneself against delay repay fraud allegations - that’s what you’d have said in the first place when making a fraudulent claim. The whole point is the statement is a lie; that’s the fraud.

Cannot emphasise enough the value of shutting up - whether innocent or guilty - when confronted out of the blue with questions about fraud or wrongdoing, especially when your answers are made without legal advice and can be admissible as evidence.
Sorry to come back, I’ve not slept a wink due to worry. Do you think I just wait to be contacted or is it worth getting in contact with them to fess up and pay?
 
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Pushpit

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Sorry to come back, I’ve not slept a wink due to worry. Do you think I just wait to be contacted or is it worth getting in contact with them to fess up and pay?
Oh dear, it's really got to you this. I know it's too easy to say this, but try not to worry too much. What has happened so far is most of the matter dealt with. Normally we say "don't poke the bear" and just wait it out. But I'm going to float one idea and maybe other members of the forum can also feedback about it. As I understand it, it is possible to simply withdraw delay repay and refund applications by calling LNER Customer Relations in Gosforth and saying vaguely that you've made a mistake. This should, at least in theory, end the problem.

It's a lovely morning up here (I'm in Northumberland) and I hope you can have a better day today just for yourself, this will sort itself out and it won't be so bad in the end.
 

jenny73

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Oh dear, it's really got to you this. I know it's too easy to say this, but try not to worry too much. What has happened so far is most of the matter dealt with. Normally we say "don't poke the bear" and just wait it out. But I'm going to float one idea and maybe other members of the forum can also feedback about it. As I understand it, it is possible to simply withdraw delay repay and refund applications by calling LNER Customer Relations in Gosforth and saying vaguely that you've made a mistake. This should, at least in theory, end the problem.

It's a lovely morning up here (I'm in Northumberland) and I hope you can have a better day today just for yourself, this will sort itself out and it won't be so bad in the end.
Thank you. They have got back to me confirming the matter is now resolved but offered an opportunity to discuss any outstanding claims. I’m not sure what to do in this instance, any advice?
 

Pushpit

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Thank you. They have got back to me confirming the matter is now resolved but offered an opportunity to discuss any outstanding claims. I’m not sure what to do in this instance, any advice?
In your specific circumstances, and more to give you peace of mind, I would take up the offer, be 100% honest, make it clear you have definitely learned your lesson, will never do it again, and ask that your other two claims are either deleted or a settlement offer made. I would be candid with them as to (a) claims that are definitely fraudulent (b) claims that are certain are correct [whether or not you can prove it] and (c) any claims where given the passage of time you are not certain. You also need to apologise to LNER for your actions.

Normally the advice here is not to engage and provide material for fishing trips, but here LNER were clearly on to something and you are vulnerable on multiple fronts at the moment. As a result of your actions LNER have got the wrong settlement here but that can be resolved. So I think there is an argument here to be 100% honest, 100% transparent. It's not just in your interest but also LNER's interest to get the matter resolved correctly.
 

WesternLancer

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Thank you. They have got back to me confirming the matter is now resolved but offered an opportunity to discuss any outstanding claims. I’m not sure what to do in this instance, any advice?
I was considering your earlier post and @Pushpit 's response #25 before you posted this message.

It had already occurred to me that an option for you was to contact them (and I would do this in writing / by e-mail) to specifically cancel the Delay -Repay claim that you have outstanding which you indicate you are not entitled to - in order to give yourself peace of mind if nothing else. In that scenario you would not be writing to whoever has contacted you about suspicious claims, but to whoever deals with LNER D-R claims (is it customer services?). That's not to say they won't join the dots but if they do I'm not sure that matters.

I would not ring them about it because then there is the prospect of getting asked awkward questions in a conversation etc which is best avoided, but a simple e-mail or on line form submission (whatever LNER says to contact them with) saying along the lines of, and keep it very simple.

In any case I think if you did have any outstanding claims that are not 100% legit it would have been unwise to leave them to progress through the claim system and accept the payment especially after what has happened.

eg
Dear Sir / Madam
For attention of the Delay - Repay clam section

I submitted a a Delay - Repay Claim in error* and the claim reference is xxxxxx.

I would be grateful if this claim can be cancelled

Yours etc


*= you could even remove the 'in error' if desired, so it's just a request to cancel a claim

and just put that with them

Depending on how they reply (eg if they promptly confirm it is cancelled for example - that would allow you -in a few days time - to respond to the recent message to for example inform them that you have no outstanding claims (or if you have several claims of which the others are legitimate you can say that in a reply - you can check your draft wording here with people)

before you do this I would wait a bit before acting to see what others think on this, but you could send a cancel claim request like my suggestion above later today to deal with that fairly promptly.

EDIT - I see @Pushpit has cross posted with my post giving a further helpful view which is a slightly different approach. It would be possible to do both of these things of course, and others may have a view on whether that is worth while or not.

I'd still be tempted to do it all in writing (esp given the nature of the conversation you posted in your original post when you rang them). I never think it is advisable to have conversations (which are probably recorded for some purpose or other) in these sorts of situations, where if you write you can take time to get your wording as best it can be, including input on a draft from here, such a letter / message would of course be along the lines of the structure pushpit suggests. You could still make a formal request to cancel your claim as per my suggestion above and then reply as pushpit suggests later in a more carefully worded way.

I hope these thoughts help and good luck with it.

Whatever you choose to do remember to keep copies of everything they have sent you and everything you send them in reply - keep those long term if ever needed again. this is another advantage of not doing things by phone as you have a clear record of what was said that you can easily access.
 
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jenny73

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Thank you both for your advice, I’m in such a state from no sleep, I think I need to take some time to think things through but will be back with any updates.
 

WesternLancer

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Thank you both for your advice, I’m in such a state from no sleep, I think I need to take some time to think things through but will be back with any updates.
Yes, this is a good idea - you could consider the options over the weekend and review other advice from forum members over the next day or two.

I do think you need to find a way to cancel any outstanding claim that is not legitimate however (even if in your initial action you essentially repaid them for claims that you made some of which might have been legitimate).

The approach suggested by @Pushpit allows you to set all of this out listing both legit and illegitimate claims in a way that would at least be 100% honest.
 
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