LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[Domh245]

The automerge function was discussed extensively in this thread, the original time limit was 3 weeks but was subsequently reduced to 7 days outside of a select few sub-forums. I would suggest that for the sort of daily allocations updates discussed here, the allocations, diagrams & timetables subforum may be more appropriate (along with a possible cancellation of the auto-merge feature in there - one for the admins)

 

[greyman42]

No further ones currently planned north of York as it stands - the run today was due to a fleet issue yesterday.

So it had nothing to do with the closure of Kings Cross?

 

[adrock1976]

Are there no 91s+ Mk IVs that run to Newcastle and Edinburgh in normal service now, or are there still a few odd workings?

 

[43 302]

Are there no 91s+ Mk IVs that run to Newcastle and Edinburgh in normal service now, or are there still a few odd workings?

The "last" one was Friday the 4th and was well reported on. Was even a special window label. However since then there has been some disruption and I think two sets have made it up, 91124 and then 91109. Nothing is diagrammed to though. If I get any get on it I'll post it here, just hope that the last message wasn't mine so it doesn't automerge!

 

[WesternLancer]

The "last" one was Friday the 4th and was well reported on. Was even a special window label. However since then there has been some disruption and I think two sets have made it up, 91124 and then 91109. Nothing is diagrammed to though. If I get any get on it I'll post it here, just hope that the last message wasn't mine so it doesn't automerge!

that will be helpful!

 

[adrock1976]

The "last" one was Friday the 4th and was well reported on. Was even a special window label. However since then there has been some disruption and I think two sets have made it up, 91124 and then 91109. Nothing is diagrammed to though. If I get any get on it I'll post it here, just hope that the last message wasn't mine so it doesn't automerge!

Thanks very much.

PS The post above did not auto merge from what I can see on the screen at my end.

 

[DB]

What's the thunderbird situation now? Have they reduced it to just Doncaster and London?

 

[43094]

91124 yesterday was due to the Kings Cross issues in the morning.

91109 today was due to a separate fleet issue.

the Newcastle & Edinburgh thunderbirds are currently still available to LNER.

 

[47827]

What's the thunderbird situation now? Have they reduced it to just Doncaster and London?

They existed since BR days to also move freight and other traffic that ran into difficulties so could be retained. With a chunk of the new fleet being all electric I'm not what if any chance there is of a 67 being needed to haul one to clear the line if the wires went down or in incidents such as were a pantograph was damaged. I'm sure there will be a decision made in due course whether to retain them or not. Virgin landed up keeping theirs after it being a close call although in effect its now a partnership with DRS drivers to save the refresher and training costs (for several years at least Virgin did crew them still partly helped by a small number of booked pendo drags). One wonders if the ECML thunderbirds stay whether DB will eventually take over the crewing or if LNER will start off like Virgin did with the crewing and continue you it for now.

 

[DB]

They existed since BR days to also move freight and other traffic that ran into difficulties so could be retained. With a chunk of the new fleet being all electric I'm not what if any chance there is of a 67 being needed to haul one to clear the line if the wires went down or in incidents such as were a pantograph was damaged. I'm sure there will be a decision made in due course whether to retain them or not. Virgin landed up keeping theirs after it being a close call although in effect its now a partnership with DRS drivers to save the refresher and training costs (for several years at least Virgin did crew them still partly helped by a small number of booked pendo drags). One wonders if the ECML thunderbirds stay whether DB will eventually take over the crewing or if LNER will start off like Virgin did with the crewing and continue you it for now.

Rather depends who is going to pay for it, I suspect, and drive them - I believe they are driven by LNER drivers, so will they want to be responsible for them if the main use is clearing failed freights? The point with IEPs is that even the electric ones have a single engine which they can use to get themselves out of the way at low speed, which might well still be quicker than waiting for the thunderbird to arrive and move it (unlike Pendolinos, which have no way of moving other than on AC power)

 

[43 302]

They existed since BR days to also move freight and other traffic that ran into difficulties so could be retained. With a chunk of the new fleet being all electric I'm not what if any chance there is of a 67 being needed to haul one to clear the line if the wires went down or in incidents such as were a pantograph was damaged. I'm sure there will be a decision made in due course whether to retain them or not. Virgin landed up keeping theirs after it being a close call although in effect its now a partnership with DRS drivers to save the refresher and training costs (for several years at least Virgin did crew them still partly helped by a small number of booked pendo drags). One wonders if the ECML thunderbirds stay whether DB will eventually take over the crewing or if LNER will start off like Virgin did with the crewing and continue you it for now.

The Newcastle thunderbird was to be withdrawn by December, assume this is still the plan.

 

[47827]

[/QUOTE]

Rather depends who is going to pay for it, I suspect, and drive them - I believe they are driven by LNER drivers, so will they want to be responsible for them if the main use is clearing failed freights? The point with IEPs is that even the electric ones have a single engine which they can use to get themselves out of the way at low speed, which might well still be quicker than waiting for the thunderbird to arrive and move it (unlike Pendolinos, which have no way of moving other than on AC power)

Indeed I should have noted about the costs, as Advanti wouldn't still have theirs if they were solely funded by themselves and Virgin previously. In any case it sounds like the thunderbird role is to reduce shortly. Without the amount of freight about, regardless of the costings side, its a shame the business case won't exist any longer but without BR these decisions are always tough ones to make.

 

[DB]

Indeed I should have noted about the costs, as Advanti wouldn't still have theirs if they were solely funded by themselves and Virgin previously. In any case it sounds like the thunderbird role is to reduce shortly. Without the amount of freight about, regardless of the costings side, its a shame the business case won't exist any longer but without BR these decisions are always tough ones to make.

There's nowhere near as much freight on the ECML as there is on the WCML - particularly north of Doncaster.

 

[47827]

There's nowhere near as much freight on the ECML as there is on the WCML - particularly north of Doncaster.

Had presumed that only to be the case north of Newcastle and the Blyth and Tyne connections but must admit I've not looked at the schedules in the last few years. The freight can also avoid part of the ECML North of Darlington on the 2 track part by being sent via Ferryhill. It probably also depends on what the freight operators have with available crew along the route. Doncaster and Peterborough where there are thunderbirds still presumably. DB and potentially 1 or 2 other operators like GB and Freightliner would tend to have something between them at those locations and potentially. Worst case scenario a big delay to a freight later in the day to rob the loco and possibly driver to rescue another failed freight. NR will often intervene and request an operator to do this.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do the FOCs provide dedicated and pre-positioned thunderbird locos on much busier freight routes such as from Southampton and Felixstowe to the Midlands and North?

I’d have thought these ECML and WCML locos were the exception, and if they’ve no longer a passenger role in the area they’ll be ended straightaway.

 

[Crun]

Had presumed that only to be the case north of Newcastle and the Blyth and Tyne connections but must admit I've not looked at the schedules in the last few years. The freight can also avoid part of the ECML North of Darlington on the 2 track part by being sent via Ferryhill. It probably also depends on what the freight operators have with available crew along the route. Doncaster and Peterborough where there are thunderbirds still presumably. DB and potentially 1 or 2 other operators like GB and Freightliner would tend to have something between them at those locations and potentially. Worst case scenario a big delay to a freight later in the day to rob the loco and possibly driver to rescue another failed freight. NR will often intervene and request an operator to do this.

I'm not sure there is a Thunderbird based at Peterborough but am open to being enlightened.

 

[43 302]

I'm not sure there is a Thunderbird based at Peterborough but am open to being enlightened.

Donny and Bounds Green afaik

 

[Swanny200]

Are Thunderbirds able to rescue Azuma sets or are these primarily for the 91's

 

[43 302]

Are Thunderbirds able to rescue Azuma sets or are these primarily for the 91's

For the 91s. If the problem is with the OLE, 800s can switch to diesel and 801s can self rescue as they have one diesel engine for low speeds. If the fault is with the set then it can be rescued by another IET.

 

[Swanny200]

For the 91s. If the problem is with the OLE, 800s can switch to diesel and 801s can self rescue as they have one diesel engine for low speeds. If the fault is with the set then it can be rescued by another IET.

So is it a case of phasing out Thunderbirds completely on the ECML and using other units for rescue if the entire set fails then especially as more fleets are going Hitachi such as TPE and Hull Trains?

 

[DB]

Are Thunderbirds able to rescue Azuma sets or are these primarily for the 91's

I would assume that the IEPs probably do carry a Dellner-drawhook adapter to allow them to be loco-hauled (most classes do), but there might be an issue with 67s - as I recall their HST drawbar had to be a bespoke design because the swinghead buckeye which is fitted to the 67s made the standar drawbar unusable.

 

[ainsworth74]

For the 91s. If the problem is with the OLE, 800s can switch to diesel and 801s can self rescue as they have one diesel engine for low speeds. If the fault is with the set then it can be rescued by another IET.

Though I'm led to believe there's been a few occasions that a 67 was required to rescue a failed Azuma as it couldn't self-rescue and attempts to rescue it with another unit failed...

 

[43 302]

Though I'm led to believe there's been a few occasions that a 67 was required to rescue a failed Azuma as it couldn't self-rescue and attempts to rescue it with another unit failed...

I believe there have been issues with it yes but nothing ever works buttery smooth first time. In time the need for Thunderbirds will massively diminish. Perhaps December might be a little early though...

 

[47827]

Donny and Bounds Green afaik

Cheers. I couldn't honestly remember. Think there's been periods of LNER's predecessors using PB for stabling of hired in diesels, albeit perhaps only for drags as the bottom bit is 4 tracked allowing for easier getting around a failure by other trains. BR once said all locations could be reached in an hour or less by an IC EC thunderbird, but that was somewhat optimistic for a light engine move in those days restricted to 75mph in theory. Now 67s with superior brakes can do it but have the obstacle of busier routes to get down so may not achieve it easily unless the failure is closer to TB base camp.

 

[50039]

Evening - I have a day off tomorrow and the weather looks good so was planning to head out with my camera... are the above diagrams still valid / best info subject to late changes? Anyone know if 91119 will be out tomorrow?

thanks

 

[43 302]

Evening - I have a day off tomorrow and the weather looks good so was planning to head out with my camera... are the above diagrams still valid / best info subject to late changes? Anyone know if 91119 will be out tomorrow?

thanks

I will let you know the diagrams tomorrow

 

[50039]

I will let you know the diagrams tomorrow

Thank you - much appreciated

 

[43094]

Diagrams:

D02 A45
N80 Y82 N85 Y88 D29
A13 D14 A37 D28
A04 N81 Y84 N87 Y90

91119 unlikely to be out.

 

[43 302]

Current whereabouts of the Mk4 fleet, courtesy of driver Andy Ashton:
Bounds Green: 91114 + set in the yard, one set in 10 road with no loco, BN12 + 26 in palace gates with no locos (appear to be stood down), 101 + 124 in palace gates, 107 + 119 in the shops, possibly 127 too and 109 + 130 starting at NL this morning.

 

[55002]

91105 & 91111 heading up to Doncaster For G exam via Neville Hill on ECS, approaching Peterborough shortly