LNER ASLEF 5 day strike - cancelled

[DJP78]

Worth remembering that MSL's (and the law behind them) do not apply to just train drivers. The act covers Health services, Firefighters, teachers, border security and others.

Its a dangerous precedent to set just pulling the MSL's on the railway and then expecting other professions to have them imposed on them.

I am guessing this is just a stay of execution as far as rail workers are concerned, and that individual TOC's did not know what level of service to provide, let alone how they were going to provide it. It would not surprise me to find that "next time" the individual toc's (under a heap of pressure from the DFT) are more prepared to put a plan into action with the aim of running services on strike day.

I don't think that MSL's should be imposed on anyone, in any line of work. Industrial action is always a last resort. Is it any wonder public service workers are campaigning after 13-14 years of austerity?

I maintain what I posted earlier, better to avoid industrial disputes and resolve via dialogue.

 

[43066]

I maintain what I posted earlier, better to avoid industrial disputes and resolve via dialogue.

Increasingly likely it’ll be resolved (or at least the can kicked down the road) in a similar manner to the RMT’s dispute now, as we get closer to the election.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I agree that it's to early to assume MSL have proven unworkable. It could just be that LNER didn't have the necessary resources to implement this time. I'd be very surprised if another attempt was not made in the next set of strikes.

LNER train drivers call off five-day strike

The union announced a further five days of strikes against LNER from February 5 in response to the threat of minimum service levels being imposed at the state-run London-Scotland service.

www.dailymail.co.uk

a senior source from LNER told the paper that the operator had a 'cat in hell's chance' of implementing the rules, with the legislation potentially worsening the reliability of train service.

 

[Watershed]

Sense has prevailed. MSL's will prove an unmitigated disaster for the operators & passengers, if invoked. Pure political theatre from the Tories.

MSLs seem to work perfectly well in other European countries. Why should they prove an unmitigated disaster?

There seem to be a lot of claims along those lines coming from ASLEF and drivers, with little in the way of explanation or evidence to back it up.

not via desperate authoritarian power-grabbing MSL legislation.

Are Italy, France, Spain and Germany "authoritarian" in your view?

No laws have been broken, so nothing to go to court about.

That's debatable. I suspect LNER would be reticent to go to Court lest it worse industrial relations, and the fact that there wasn't enough time to implement MSLs for this round of strikes just proved to be a convenient 'out'. I wouldn't be so sure it will happen like that for the next round.

If MSLs are indeed ever used it would likely provoke a huge legal battle, as the law likely contravenes human rights legislation.

Other countries' MSLs have been upheld by the ECHR so I'm afraid this is wishful thinking.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Other countries' MSLs have been upheld by the ECHR so I'm afraid this is wishful thinking.

There are some important differences between the MSL in the UK and MSLs in some other European countries, see the following article

Minimum service levels legislation: in conflict with strikers and with Europe? - UK in a changing Europe

Tonia Novitz examines the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill which would allow ministers to set minimum service levels during strikes.

ukandeu.ac.uk

 

[43066]

MSLs seem to work perfectly well in other European countries. Why should they prove an unmitigated disaster?

There seem to be a lot of claims along those lines coming from ASLEF and drivers, with little in the way of explanation or evidence to back it up.


Are Italy, France, Spain and Germany "authoritarian" in your view?


That's debatable. I suspect LNER would be reticent to go to Court lest it worse industrial relations, and the fact that there wasn't enough time to implement MSLs for this round of strikes just proved to be a convenient 'out'. I wouldn't be so sure it will happen like that for the next round.


Other countries' MSLs have been upheld by the ECHR so I'm afraid this is wishful thinking.

The disappointment from some at this development is palpable!

It’s been explained many times that you can’t simply equate MSLs in the UK and other European countries in a vacuum, without considering those nations’ wider industrial relations legal regimes, which tend to be much more pro union in other ways - eg wildcat strikes in France (which has MSLs in certain industries) recently closed the channel tunnel for a period. In many cases in Europe, while technically in place, MSLs also aren’t actually enforced, far from working “perfectly well”.

The ILO’s comments on the UK proposals, in particular, were extremely unfavourable and the UK’s approach to to MSLs, when viewed in conjunction with the rest of the domestic legal regime they operate in, may well face challenge on human rights grounds. Not that that bothers the government, of course (nor will it bother those who don’t recognise the right to strike, or who dislike trade unions, for whatever reason).

All of that aside, it was predicted by many at all levels of industry, certainly not just by drivers, that they simply wouldn’t work for various practical reasons; lo and behold that view appears to have been proven right. I’m not sure what more evidence you need than every operator apart from LNER not even consulting on them!

 

[alf]

All the noise about minimum service levels are now detracting from the real issue that the drivers still haven't had a rise in 5 years!

This is not true.
SWR drivers had pay rises every year except for the last, as part of the deal to bring in a kind of DOO on class 701 units.

TfW drivers have had yearly pay rises & so have Island line & all freight drivers.

 

[tomoufc]

That's debatable. I suspect LNER would be reticent to go to Court lest it worse industrial relations, and the fact that there wasn't enough time to implement MSLs for this round of strikes just proved to be a convenient 'out'. I wouldn't be so sure it will happen like that for the next round.

So let’s debate it. Which laws may have been broken, in your opinion? Please show your evidence.

 

[EZJ]

The disappointment from some at this development is palpable

Indeed, sadly some regulars on this forum who until recently were gleefully telling everyone how MSL "would work here because they have it in other countries" without actually having a clue themselves how it works there or may do here now seem upset about it's inevitable unworkable nature. Be careful what you wish for because once draconian measures are placed on one set of workers/society it won't be long until they come for you too.

 

[Evolution]

This is reassuring news, lets hope this can be the turning point for some sensible dialogue in the wider dispute. Most knew MSL would be unworkable at ground level, lets hope this goverment now realises this and stops wasting taxpayers money and hurting the wider economy in dragging this dispute out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2024 ==

The disappointment from some at this development is palpable!

Certain posters on here seem to thrive off the negativity of MSL and the wider dispute, it really is a bizarre attitude.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Big climbdown by LNER/DfT.

On Tuesday 30 January South Western Railway and Govia Thameslink Railway which are private sector companies are both currently stating that they will run a very limited service but Southeastern, run by DfT OLR Holdings Limited, currently state on their website

Strike action | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

Travel advice for Tuesday 30 January We’re sorry, but you cannot travel on this date – there are no trains running on our network and no replacement buses.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Well, that's annoying. I've just bought advance tickets from Dundee to Euston via Glasgow for Feb 9th, routed that way to avoid using LNER, and now find I could leave later and arrive earlier, and not have to change stations in Glasgow.

 

[800001]

Well, that's annoying. I've just bought advance tickets from Dundee to Euston via Glasgow for Feb 9th, routed that way to avoid using LNER, and now find I could leave later and arrive earlier, and not have to change stations in Glasgow.

Maybe apply for a refund with a full explanation of why you purchased those tickets? Ie strike cancelled.

It’s worth a shot, worse case is they say no.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

On Tuesday 30 January South Western Railway and Govia Thameslink Railway which are private sector companies are both currently stating that they will run a very limited service but Southeastern, run by DfT OLR Holdings Limited, currently state on their website

SWR has an agreement to use driver managers on strike days.

 

[newtownmgr]

This is not true.
SWR drivers had pay rises every year except for the last, as part of the deal to bring in a kind of DOO on class 701 units.

TfW drivers have had yearly pay rises & so have Island line & all freight drivers.

Tfw/Scotrail & the Freight companies,don’t come under the control of the dft so have had rises. With regards to SWR/Island Line they agreed a multi year deal pre Covid which has recently come to an end. Hence there inclusion recently in the ballots along with all the remaining English TOC’s which have not had a pay rise since 2019. Hope that clarifies it for you.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

On Tuesday 30 January South Western Railway and Govia Thameslink Railway which are private sector companies are both currently stating that they will run a very limited service but Southeastern, run by DfT OLR Holdings Limited, currently state on their website

Seeing as SE run a very good service during the overtime/rdw ban no point ruffling feathers with trying to get DM's to deliver a few services on a strike day.

 

[ComUtoR]

Seeing as SE run a very good service during the overtime/rdw ban no point ruffling feathers with trying to get DM's to deliver a few services on a strike day.

It was only recently that their DMs are allowed to drive trains during industrial action.

 

[Carlisle]

The disappointment from some at this development is palpable!

It’s been explained many times that you can’t simply equate MSLs in the UK and other European countries in a vacuum, without considering those nations’ wider industrial relations legal regimes, which tend to be much more pro union

A somewhat strange opinion from someone that openly backed Brexit on this forum

 

[Moderating team]

As we are now starting to wander off into yet another discussion about MSL probably now is a good time to draw a halt to proceedings. If there are any further developments then I'm sure a new thread will be started.