LMS Anglo-Scottish travel in wartime

[Wilts Wanderer]

Hello folks

I’m looking for any information (general and/or specific) about what it would be like to travel from Euston to Glasgow on the 10 0am express (pre/post war the ‘Royal Scot’) in early 1944. I have the timings for the service and a general idea of likely locomotive types etc, and where they would be changed (Carlisle, and also possibly Crewe.)

Can anyone assist me with the likely make up of the train, the fares, what dining facilities (if any) were available and what platform it would most likely depart from at London Euston please?

Any help much appreciated.

 

[6Gman]

I don't think there would have been on train dining facilities in early 1944.

I have the formation in 1935 and 1955, but in 1944 I think it would have been everything that could be fitted within weight limits!

 

[Gloster]

Very crowded and dining facilities probably consisted of a rush to tea bars located at the main stops. A lot of people would be travelling on various forms of warrants.

 

[randyrippley]

By 1944 I wouldn't have thought much was running as an express - or even to timetable

 

[StephenHunter]

It was common to stick as many carriages as possible on the few trains running I believe. 20 carriages was not unheard of and I know that at least one evacuation train from King's Cross in 1939 went all the way into the first tunnel.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Thanks everyone for the responses so far.

I don't think there would have been on train dining facilities in early 1944.

I have the formation in 1935 and 1955, but in 1944 I think it would have been everything that could be fitted within weight limits!

I’ve read conflicting sources, one of which said that dining (and sleeping car) facilities were withdrawn at the outbreak of hostilities in 1939 but restored only a few months later, and another that says diners were withdrawn throughout - which I’m more inclined to believe. I know sleepers came back, as Bradshaw 1944 does show overnight trains.

On the subject of weight limits - I agree that some massive trains ran in wartime. I guess a Princess Coronation on a wartime 3.5hr Euston-Crewe timing could probably have shifted a building. Could Euston accommodate 20-coach trains?

Edit: this NR link suggests that dining cars were in service until April 1944

VE Day - The railway in WWII - Network Rail

The rail industry has come together on the 75th anniversary of Victory in Europe Day to say thank you to everyone who served and sacrificed during WWII.

www.networkrail.co.uk

 

[Taunton]

It was common to stick as many carriages as possible on the few trains running I believe. 20 carriages was not unheard of and I know that at least one evacuation train from King's Cross in 1939 went all the way into the first tunnel.

In fact well in, but not for long. The trains, apparently up to 24 coaches, were loaded in two parts, either side of an island platform. Shortly before departure the front portion pulled forward and backed onto the rear portion. It was rather beyond an LNER express 4-6-2, but preferably was double-headed by two of the powerful smaller-wheeled K3 2-6-0s, and jogged along at about 50mph. The second portion would be platformed where the whole train could get a dead straight run into the tunnel, so the incoming ecs loco at the buffers could give an all-out push up to Finsbury Park without worry of derailing on the sharp connections. Gerry Fiennes wrote about all this.

There was a government ban on running relief trains, hence the approach. This caused other issues as well.

We wrote about this a while ago here :

Troop / Evacuation trains of WWII

I searched for another thread on this topic but I couldn't find one. I am wondering about the rough dates, frequency and common start- and end-points for trains that would have been used on evacuation and troop trains in WWII. I am particularly interested in the Southern Railway and whether...

www.railforums.co.uk

and a family wartime story from midnight on the LMS :

Night trains in bygone eras

Mods' note: split from Latest at night passenger trains (not sleeper)? 03:34 Paddington to Reading? I'm from the SouthWest ........ and seems around here not much happens after about midnight Oh what a different world. Taunton station in the 1960s was an absolute hive of activity all through...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Dr Hoo]

For general background on railway operations throughout the 2WW I would recommend the History of the British Railways During the War, 1939-45 by R Bell, with a Foreword by Sir William Wood, President of the LMS. This was actually published by The Railway Gazette and has chapters on virtually every aspect. In my view it is rather better than many books that reasonably describe high profile things like bomb damage, production of munitions at works and the heroism of many rail staff but don't really describe the dull background of restrictions, blackouts and so forth.

All services were heavily restricted from April 1944 to release resources for the D-Day build up. So the OP needs to think of the earlier months of that year. Restaurant cars had been withdrawn from all but 72 trains across the whole network from May 1942 (although a Scottish service from Euston would probably have been in that number). They were entirely withdrawn from April 1944.

There had been a hefty hike in passenger fares of 16 2/3% in December 1940 but I am not aware of any further increase during the war. At a more detailed level there were changes to availability of things like workmen's tickets and cheap day returns but not particularly relevant to an Anglo-Scottish journey.

Punctuality during daylight was apparently relatively good.

 

[etr221]

Looking on Timetable World, the March 1944 Bradshaw shows a few trains with RC (Restaurant Car) note - the 10 0mrn or 1 0 aft to Glasgow or the 10 5mrn to Perth (I think that's all the day time Euston-Scotland services) are not among them. Nor is the 10 0 mrn from St Pancras (the Midland route's day train)

The 10 0 and 10 5 both had 7 minutes at Crewe, so I would expect to have changed locos there. The 1 0 only 3 mins, so probably not.

For overnight services, while some had 'SC' (sleeping cars - 1st and (sometimes) 3rd class), they would have been very limited - most people would I think have been in ordinary sittting coaches.

Reading Bradshaw is something of an art!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Looking on Timetable World, the March 1944 Bradshaw shows a few trains with RC (Restaurant Car) note - the 10 0mrn or 1 0 aft to Glasgow or the 10 5mrn to Perth (I think that's all the day time Euston-Scotland services) are not among them. Nor is the 10 0 mrn from St Pancras (the Midland route's day train)

The 10 0 and 10 5 both had 7 minutes at Crewe, so I would expect to have changed locos there. The 1 0 only 3 mins, so probably not.

For overnight services, while some had 'SC' (sleeping cars - 1st and (sometimes) 3rd class), they would have been very limited - most people would I think have been in ordinary sittting coaches.

Reading Bradshaw is something of an art!

I agree about the lack of dining facilities on those Anglo-Scots in Bradshaw, but it seems astonishing! Maybe there just wasn’t the capacity to waste on using vehicles for dining facilities rather than passenger accommodation.

 

[StephenHunter]

Rationing would have been an issue too.

 

[6Gman]

On the subject of weight limits - I agree that some massive trains ran in wartime. I guess a Princess Coronation on a wartime 3.5hr Euston-Crewe timing could probably have shifted a building. Could Euston accommodate 20-coach trains?

The Full Load allowance for an 8P (albeit in 1955, but presumably broadly similar) was 700 tons which was regarded as 21 coaches (coaches were slightly lighter in those days). That allowed 3hrs 6mins to Crewe.

Again in 1955 Euston had booked trains up to 16 coaches and I'm sure they would have handled longer if necessary. One advantage of semaphores over colour lights is that you can see them from beyond the signal post, though I think Euston may have lost its semaphores pre-war ?

 

[StephenHunter]

Modern day Euston is max 16.

 

[Gloster]

Sleeping coaches were usually the domain of senior military officers: the more senior they were, the greater the chance of pulling rank and getting one. Junior officers would be in First Class with a few civilians, while other ranks and most of the civilians were in Third Class, or in the corridor, or the luggage racks...The most senior NCOs had a habit of taking over toilets and locking themselves in for privacy and a bit of room. If you wanted to use the toilet, you had to choose between that and ‘cha and a wad’ at one of the stops.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Modern day Euston is max 16.

I think that’s 16x 23m vehicles plus two locomotives. LMS stock was shorter, I think 57ft was the rough ballpark? Plus the fact it was a completely different station (utterly different, with separate departure and arrival sides.)

 

[Gloster]

The July 1945 ABC Guide gives the fares as First Single 102/6 and Monthly Return 123/2, while Third was 61/7 and 82/1. The 10.00 arrived Glasgow at 18.55 and the 10.05 at 20.16; there was also a 10.25 (M-Th)/10.40 (FSO) that arrived 21.42 at St Enoch.

 

[alexl92]

In fact well in, but not for long. The trains, apparently up to 24 coaches, were loaded in two parts, either side of an island platform. Shortly before departure the front portion pulled forward and backed onto the rear portion. It was rather beyond an LNER express 4-6-2, but preferably was double-headed by two of the powerful smaller-wheeled K3 2-6-0s, and jogged along at about 50mph. The second portion would be platformed where the whole train could get a dead straight run into the tunnel, so the incoming ecs loco at the buffers could give an all-out push up to Finsbury Park without worry of derailing on the sharp connections. Gerry Fiennes wrote about all this.

I'm sure I read an article in one of the railway magazines a few years ago that suggested a V2 had shifted 20+ on its own - anyone able to verify that?

 

[43096]

I think that’s 16x 23m vehicles plus two locomotives. LMS stock was shorter, I think 57ft was the rough ballpark? Plus the fact it was a completely different station (utterly different, with separate departure and arrival sides.)

It’s 12 x 23m (Mark 3) and 4 x 20m (Mark 2), plus two Class 92 locomotives. It was this restriction that meant replacing the Mark 2 lounge and seats/brake vehicles with Mark 3s wasn’t possible. I think the new sleeper vehicles are slightly shorter than a Mark 3, so load 16 will fit.

 

[oldman]

According to the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER, V2 4800 took 26 vehicles on a passenger train from Peterborough to London on 31.3.1940. They also report an A4 taking 25 out of King's Cross - 16 minutes to Finsbury Park.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It’s 12 x 23m (Mark 3) and 4 x 20m (Mark 2), plus two Class 92 locomotives. It was this restriction that meant replacing the Mark 2 lounge and seats/brake vehicles with Mark 3s wasn’t possible. I think the new sleeper vehicles are slightly shorter than a Mark 3, so load 16 will fit.

Thanks for the correction, yes I’d forgotten it wasn’t an all-mk3 operation. I didn’t realise the new stock was shorter either.

According to the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER, V2 4800 took 26 vehicles on a passenger train from Peterborough to London on 31.3.1940. They also report an A4 taking 25 out of King's Cross - 16 minutes to Finsbury Park.

Thank you for finding these records, that must have been quite a sight! An extraordinary achievement for a class 7 locomotive as well, although I guess the ‘engines that won the war’ (sic) must have made a name for themselves several times over.

 

[Harvester]

According to the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER, V2 4800 took 26 vehicles on a passenger train from Peterborough to London on 31.3.1940.

Apparently the gross load was 860/870 tons, and the V2 did the run in 102 minutes. Some faster times with almost equal loads were made by A3s and A4s.

Source: Essays in Steam (Edited by John F. Clay).

 

[Bevan Price]

In addition to public stops, the heaviest trains would almost certainly stop for banking assistance, e.g. (Northbound) at
Oxenholme (for Grayrigg bank)
Tebay (for Shap)
Beattock station (for Beattock bank)
The bankers at Oxenholme & Tebay might have been Fowler 4MT 2-6-4T.
Not sure about Beattock; in the early 1950s, I think they had some ex-Caledonian 4-6-2T and 0-4-4T, as well as Fowler 2-6-4T.

The train loco would probably be a Stanier Pacific (if available) or a Royal Scot 4-6-0, with, as you say, loco changes at Crewe and/or Carlisle.

As an alternative, some heavy trains might be double-headed. The pilot might have been a 4-6-0 (Black 5, Jubilee, Patriot) or a 4-4-0 (4P Midland Compound), LMS/MR 2P or (in Scotland) a Caledonian 4-4-0.

For completeness, in 1944 there were also Anglo-Scottish trains from
Birmingham (1 daytime, 1 sleeper)
Liverpool & Manchester (2 daytime, 1 sleeper)
Blackpool Central to Glasgow Buchanan Street (summer saturdays)
Rugby (Sleeper; actually started from Euston, but shown as not conveying London to Glasgow passengers)

 

[Taunton]

The gross overloads would likely be done with knowledge on the day, eg no adverse weather conditions. One issue with running on the open line with long cutoff and full regulator (as they would typically be doing) is that the locomotive would consume fuel and water at considerably greater rates per mile than normal, and may need to stop for additional supplies. One of the difficulties with double headers on longer runs was water trough pickup, which both locos cannot use at the same time (the first loco creates a bow wave which leaves nothing for the second), and they may not be long enough for them to take water sequentially.

It's not apparent also how much of the run might be done with one loco, out of Kings Cross say a pilot may be available beyond Peterborough. In those days East Coast heavyweight trains generally changed locos about every hundred miles, lodging turns were out of favour in wartime and a 200 mile round trip in these conditions was enough for anyone. Common break points were Grantham, York and Newcastle.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

It’s 12 x 23m (Mark 3) and 4 x 20m (Mark 2), plus two Class 92 locomotives. It was this restriction that meant replacing the Mark 2 lounge and seats/brake vehicles with Mark 3s wasn’t possible. I think the new sleeper vehicles are slightly shorter than a Mark 3, so load 16 will fit.

According to Wiki Mk5s are 22.2m x 16 = 355.2metres
Wiki gives 23m for Mk3 and 19.66 for Mk 2 making 354.64 for a full train of 16, so effectively the same length and probably why Mk5s were specified at that length.

 

[Bevan Price]

The gross overloads would likely be done with knowledge on the day, eg no adverse weather conditions. One issue with running on the open line with long cutoff and full regulator (as they would typically be doing) is that the locomotive would consume fuel and water at considerably greater rates per mile than normal, and may need to stop for additional supplies. One of the difficulties with double headers on longer runs was water trough pickup, which both locos cannot use at the same time (the first loco creates a bow wave which leaves nothing for the second), and they may not be long enough for them to take water sequentially.

It's not apparent also how much of the run might be done with one loco, out of Kings Cross say a pilot may be available beyond Peterborough. In those days East Coast heavyweight trains generally changed locos about every hundred miles, lodging turns were out of favour in wartime and a 200 mile round trip in these conditions was enough for anyone. Common break points were Grantham, York and Newcastle.

I tend to agree - a Stanier or Gresley Pacific would be unlikely to need a pilot unless it had a mechanical problem, or a tender full of very poor quality coal.

On the WCML, loco changes would be at one, or both of Crewe & Carlisle. Although almost halfway between London & Glasgow, Preston was not normally used for loco changes on the WCML (other than for portions to/from Liverpool or Manchester), and I don't think it ever had an allocation of Pacifics.

On the ECML, other places for loco changes were Peterborough or Doncaster.

Although not an everyday event, diversions from the main lines due to line damage / engineering work would have been a greater problem on the WCML than on the ECML. Gresley Pacifics used some quite minor lines in Scotland and the North East after the 1948 floods, but Stanier Pacifics were not allowed on WCML diversions via Blackburn, Hellifield and the Settle & Carlisle line.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I tend to agree - a Stanier or Gresley Pacific would be unlikely to need a pilot unless it had a mechanical problem, or a tender full of very poor quality coal.

On the WCML, loco changes would be at one, or both of Crewe & Carlisle. Although almost halfway between London & Glasgow, Preston was not normally used for loco changes on the WCML (other than for portions to/from Liverpool or Manchester), and I don't think it ever had an allocation of Pacifics.

On the ECML, other places for loco changes were Peterborough or Doncaster.

Although not an everyday event, diversions from the main lines due to line damage / engineering work would have been a greater problem on the WCML than on the ECML. Gresley Pacifics used some quite minor lines in Scotland and the North East after the 1948 floods, but Stanier Pacifics were not allowed on WCML diversions via Blackburn, Hellifield and the Settle & Carlisle line.

My understanding is that Crewe Pacifics would have worked through to Scotland , as did the crews in normal times - but in WW2 there might well have been intermediate crew changes (Carlisle for example) - as for the LNER - loco changes at Grantham were for many years , almost "de rigour"

Coal quality on all lines was a concern , and could materially affect performance out on the run - certainly , talking to retired staff who were fireman in the immediate post war years , (they were very young men) - a shift could be very challenging with a load of poor / dusty coal - one who I knew worked an A3 to Leeds , stalled on the approach to the Nene Bridge at PBO , had hardly a moment when he was not sorting the coal (picking out decent lumps , or shovelling !) ....

 

[Western Sunset]

Not forgetting the other LMS route from St Pan. Summer 1945 saw:
10am to Glasgow & Edinburgh
9.15pm to Edinburgh (sleeping cars from Kettering)
9.30pm to Glasgow (including sleeping cars)