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LM class 321

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DarloRich

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they also rock up form time to time on other services Pumba & often seem to spend a fair bit of time in the carriage sidings at Bletchley.

@ ML - i hope they dont swap their 153 off the Bedford-Bletchley with FGW, dont fancy a pacer! lol guess if they do it will be 150x2 rather than 153 x1 & 150X1
 
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NXEA!

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The Bedford-Bletchley like you said will most likely be a pair of 150's once they have been replaced because a pair of 153's or a 2 car 172 will be too long for the platforms. Plus LM are most likely to keep some 150's because then they will qualify for some more stock because they'll be the oldest things in use. And whilst Pacers would be 'ideal' (I don't see how a Pacer could be ideal for anything tbh! :lol:) for this type of line, its the training Guards and and Drivers up on them and they would be a relatively small fleet, so they'd be non-standard. :)
 

transportphoto

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The 1702 ex-LST is the 12-car 321 to Naarich, and then 1930 back up.

The 1702 is a bit of an all shacks service, calling at places like Marks Tey
Mid-Last year (before timetable change) there seemed to be a regular diagram for a 8/12(?) car 321 operating the 0730 NRW - LST.
I don't know if this is still the case.

Also - there was 2 321's stabled in the carriage sidings at Norwich during the week.
 

NXEA!

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Didn't it used to run to Harwich before?
Yes. As for the Norwich diagrams, in the last couple months before the timetable change, quite often a pair of 321's would deputise for a 90+Mark3 formation on diagram 512. I'm not sure if there is a morning service using 321's from Norwich, but there's a few services that start from Stowmarket which are operated by 360's.

 

tbtc

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whilst Pacers would be 'ideal' (I don't see how a Pacer could be ideal for anything tbh! :lol:) for this type of line, its the training Guards and and Drivers up on them and they would be a relatively small fleet, so they'd be non-standard. :)

The same could be said for keeping a couple of 150s just for use on this branch though (if LM get rid of all other 150s)
 

Z12XE

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. I'm not sure if there is a morning service using 321's from Norwich, but there's a few services that start from Stowmarket which are operated by 360's.

There aren't any morning EMUs from Norwich, there aren't any 321s stabled in the area and the SMK 360s ECS in from Colchester
 

NXEA!

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The same could be said for keeping a couple of 150s just for use on this branch though (if LM get rid of all other 150s)
True, but the guards and drivers wouldn't have to be trained on the class, plus its unlikely they're going to keep 2 or 3 sets, more likely they will keep around 6 or 7. What I don't understand though is that once the hybrid three car sets are disbanded there are 33 2 car sets and 2 3 car sets. FGW are taking 9 and Northern inherit 8 so that's 17 sets. I haven't heard anything about other sets being cascaded so that means they'll still have 16 2 car sets and 2 3 cars. I know that its likely they'll release the (is it 10?) 10 153's but that's still a high number of additional carriages left uncascaded. Surely that can't be right? Or will another operator inherit something like 10 sets, but it hasn't been announced or am I missing something? :lol: Sorry for going off topic for about the 4th time this thread. :lol: But back to the original topic, surely there is scope to oust the last 2/3 diagrams for the class? Is there anyway another couple of 350's can be released from current workings?

 
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tbtc

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True, but the guards and drivers wouldn't have to be trained on the class, plus its unlikely they're going to keep 2 or 3 sets, more likely they will keep around 6 or 7. What I don't understand though is that once the hybrid three car sets are disbanded there are 33 2 car sets and 2 3 car sets. FGW are taking 9 and Northern inherit 8 so that's 17 sets. I haven't heard anything about other sets being cascaded so that means they'll still have 16 2 car sets and 2 3 cars. I know that its likely they'll release the (is it 10?) 10 153's but that's still a high number of additional carriages left uncascaded. Surely that can't be right? Or will another operator inherit something like 10 sets, but it hasn't been announced or am I missing something? :lol: Sorry for going off topic for about the 4th time this thread. :lol: But back to the original topic, surely there is scope to oust the last 2/3 diagrams for the class? Is there anyway another couple of 350's can be released from current workings?


You make an interesting point.

Ideally I'd build enough 172s and 350s so that LM only needed 170/172s as DMUs (plus the Parry People Mover!), and 323/350 for EMUs. Would be much simpler (even better to build even more 172/350s and cascade the 170/323s elsewhere, but can't see that happening).

I think that keeping 150/ 153/ 321s is going to make things more complicated than needs be.

Not sure where the 10x 150 and 8x 153 are going. Not a lot of routes in the UK only need a single 153 so I'd imagine the 153s would go to add capacity to 155/156s (which really means Northern or EMT).
 

NXEA!

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Yeah I agree with you. Haha, don't forget the PPM. ;) But if LM do get this 'growth build' of 350's as was mentioned earlier, than they would have a uniform electric fleet, 350's for London work and Brum-Liverpool and 323's for the Birmingham lines. Yeah, I think the 153's would be more ideal to cascade anyway, as like you say they can be put on the end of a service which may need an additional car, like Derby-Crewe (or possibly an extra two carriages in this case) but saves having to waste a 2/3 car unit on lengthening a train which needs only an extra coaches worth of capacity. If EMT get these 153's they're gonna have a huge fleet of them! :lol: I think FGW should get around 3 of these c.10 150 sets going spare as they could do with some additional capacity in the Bristol area, and Northern should get the other 7 sets, and maybe another 3/4 Northern 156's could be sent to EMT, so then these operators all gain a good amount of additional coaches. :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and also who's idea was it to build 69 172 carriages which seat less people anyway, to replace 72 150 carriages? Honestly, how difficult would it be to order one extra 3 car set at least?! And now LM want to keep a few extra 150's to provide additional capacity, which is what happened with the 350>321 replacement. Surely they should anticipate some growth? The DfT and the others involved need to get some common sense. And fast.
 

tbtc

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Yeah I agree with you. Haha, don't forget the PPM. ;) But if LM do get this 'growth build' of 350's as was mentioned earlier, than they would have a uniform electric fleet, 350's for London work and Brum-Liverpool and 323's for the Birmingham lines. Yeah, I think the 153's would be more ideal to cascade anyway, as like you say they can be put on the end of a service which may need an additional car, like Derby-Crewe (or possibly an extra two carriages in this case) but saves having to waste a 2/3 car unit on lengthening a train which needs only an extra coaches worth of capacity. If EMT get these 153's they're gonna have a huge fleet of them! :lol: I think FGW should get around 3 of these c.10 150 sets going spare as they could do with some additional capacity in the Bristol area, and Northern should get the other 7 sets, and maybe another 3/4 Northern 156's could be sent to EMT, so then these operators all gain a good amount of additional coaches. :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and also who's idea was it to build 69 172 carriages which seat less people anyway, to replace 72 150 carriages? Honestly, how difficult would it be to order one extra 3 car set at least?! And now LM want to keep a few extra 150's to provide additional capacity, which is what happened with the 350>321 replacement. Surely they should anticipate some growth? The DfT and the others involved need to get some common sense. And fast.

The 172 order reminds me of the mess made of the Transpennine 185s. They ordered three car trains, yes, but they had fewer seats than the "doubled up" Sprinters that they were replacing. Then they didn't order enough to replace everything (hence some 158s being left over, which were swapped with SWT 170s). Then the production line closed and no more 185s could be built.

LM are doing the first part of this. I just hope they make sure they *do* order at least enough to replace the 150s on a "like for like" basis (plus a few more to get rid of the 153s etc), and don't get stuck unable to purchase more carriages in future.

There are a lot of 155/156 routes (e.g. Calder Valley) where a third coach (e.g. a 153 tagged on) would make a big difference
 

NXEA!

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The 172 order reminds me of the mess made of the Transpennine 185s. They ordered three car trains, yes, but they had fewer seats than the "doubled up" Sprinters that they were replacing. Then they didn't order enough to replace everything (hence some 158s being left over, which were swapped with SWT 170s). Then the production line closed and no more 185s could be built.

LM are doing the first part of this. I just hope they make sure they *do* order at least enough to replace the 150s on a "like for like" basis (plus a few more to get rid of the 153s etc), and don't get stuck unable to purchase more carriages in future.

There are a lot of 155/156 routes (e.g. Calder Valley) where a third coach (e.g. a 153 tagged on) would make a big difference
Yeah I agree, and now there's the stupid case of a tiny fleet of 9 170's. I wonder when the 185's get released from Manchester-Scotland, if we'll see the 170's be replaced? They could go to NXEA, and the 156's be cascaded to EMT and Northern. See, enthusiasts have more common sense than the DfT and some TOC's it seems. :| ;) Yeah, well I'm fairly sure I read in the mail train section of TRUK that someone had written that some lightly loaded East Yorkshire services which a 153 could operate are being run by 158's. If this is true, and other parts of the Northern network are overcroweded, it does make me wonder why they feel they need to use the extra capacity on lines that don't warrant it. I know its not as simple as sending the 158's to the North-West but with swapping the diagrams from 158's to 153's the 158's could then take over some 156 diagrams, which could then be transferred over to Newton Heath to alleviate overcrowding in the Manchester area. How the TOC's and the DfT operate is well and truly beyond me. (Going off topic again. :lol: )

 

YorkshireBear

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Yeah I agree, and now there's the stupid case of a tiny fleet of 9 170's. I wonder when the 185's get released from Manchester-Scotland, if we'll see the 170's be replaced? They could go to NXEA, and the 156's be cascaded to EMT and Northern. See, enthusiasts have more common sense than the DfT and some TOC's it seems. :| ;) Yeah, well I'm fairly sure I read in the mail train section of TRUK that someone had written that some lightly loaded East Yorkshire services which a 153 could operate are being run by 158's. If this is true, and other parts of the Northern network are overcroweded, it does make me wonder why they feel they need to use the extra capacity on lines that don't warrant it. I know its not as simple as sending the 158's to the North-West but with swapping the diagrams from 158's to 153's the 158's could then take over some 156 diagrams, which could then be transferred over to Newton Heath to alleviate overcrowding in the Manchester area. How the TOC's and the DfT operate is well and truly beyond me. (Going off topic again. :lol: )


The problem is the 170's operate on the picadilly hull services (2 on cleethorpes manchester definitely a disgrace!) and the wieght restrcition somewhere means 185's have to slow down and loose time betwene leeds and hull.... i think thats why they arnt too bothered right now.....

And the services you refer to are properly East yorkshrie coast services to brid and scarbrough.....

I think because they are long distance semi fast services from sheffield they require a 158.... but the hull bridlington local service i agree could easily use a 153 maybe just double up in summer if possible..... not much demand in that part of world as far as i am aware

and tbtc personally 350's are fantastic but that may be because im used to the pacers that emminate from sheffield these days :)
 

ainsworth74

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The problem is the 170's operate on the picadilly hull services (2 on cleethorpes manchester definitely a disgrace!) and the wieght restrcition somewhere means 185's have to slow down and loose time betwene leeds and hull.

TPE's 170s aren't really appropriate on any part of their network. They don't provide enough capacity on the Manchester to Hull as well as Manchester to Cleethorpes. But as you point out the weight restriction around Selby means that 185s cannot make up time should they need to (I've been on 185s between Hull and Leeds they don't lose time but if they run late they cannot make it back up as they can't run at full line speed).

I think because they are long distance semi fast services from sheffield they require a 158.... but the hull bridlington local service i agree could easily use a 153 maybe just double up in summer if possible..... not much demand in that part of world as far as i am aware

One of the main reason for 158s is certainly that it is a long distance service (some run all the way from Sheffield to Scarborough not just Bridlington). However to suggest that a 153 could deal with the demand is wrong. Off-peak you might get away with it but during the peak and weekends you would have overcrowding (more than there already is) and would probably be leaving people behind. To put 153s on the Yorkshire coast would be a mistake.
 

YorkshireBear

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TPE's 170s aren't really appropriate on any part of their network. They don't provide enough capacity on the Manchester to Hull as well as Manchester to Cleethorpes. But as you point out the weight restriction around Selby means that 185s cannot make up time should they need to (I've been on 185s between Hull and Leeds they don't lose time but if they run late they cannot make it back up as they can't run at full line speed).



One of the main reason for 158s is certainly that it is a long distance service (some run all the way from Sheffield to Scarborough not just Bridlington). However to suggest that a 153 could deal with the demand is wrong. Off-peak you might get away with it but during the peak and weekends you would have overcrowding (more than there already is) and would probably be leaving people behind. To put 153s on the Yorkshire coast would be a mistake.

Fair enough, i must say i didnt know enough about it to comment hence the as far as im aware bit at end. Thanks for info though. But for the local hull bridlington... 158? surely a 155 (i know it wont get away from WYPTE) so basically 2 153's would be better than a 158 arnt they a bit overkill for the local service?

I did know some travelled through to scarbrough (alternate horus i believe?) and that is a long way as when you do planner for medowhall or sheffield to scarbrough it is quicker to get train to doncaster (usually the one that is heading to scarbrough !!!!) change to york change to TPE to scarbrough

Yeah agree with 170's completely it is a joke i'd sooner see them get 3 car (maybe 4 car) 172's and send all 170's to LM to replace rest of their sprinter fleet (dont know if it would replace rest as figure are a bit questionable at moment)



As with 321's i can FCC and NXEA having use but are northern struggling for EMU's in yorkshire? i thought they had enough and there wasnt much more they could do?
 

sprinterguy

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Yeah I agree, and now there's the stupid case of a tiny fleet of 9 170's. I wonder when the 185's get released from Manchester-Scotland, if we'll see the 170's be replaced?

I don’t believe so. I expect TPEs’ 185 diagrams will revert to how they were before they took on the Manchester to Scotland flows, with more doubled up 185s over the core route. I think the most that will happen is that you might get more services formed of pairs of TPE 170s (on North TPE), which is a positive move even if it is less radical than a rolling stock reshuffle between TOCs.

This thread has got rather off topic hasn’t it?
 
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YorkshireBear

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I don’t believe so. I expect TPEs’ 185 diagrams will revert to how they were before they took on the Manchester to Scotland flows, with more doubled up 185s over the core route. I think the most that will happen is that you might get more services formed of pairs of TPE 170s, which is a positive move even if it is less radical than a rolling stock reshuffle between TOCs.

This thread has got rather off topic hasn’t it?

it has but to comment :) when NW fleet returns to the real TPE routes i would hope... that the two 170's on south pennine route would move back to form 4 car units.... with 3 car being the monopoly on south pennine route
 

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it has but to comment :) when NW fleet returns to the real TPE routes i would hope... that the two 170's on south pennine route would move back to form 4 car units.... with 3 car being the monopoly on south pennine route

Yeah, you would hope that that will be the case
 

ainsworth74

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But for the local hull bridlington... 158? surely a 155 (i know it wont get away from WYPTE) so basically 2 153's would be better than a 158 arnt they a bit overkill for the local service?

A 155/156 would be fine on just the Hull to Bridlington run. The problem is that most of the services run through to Sheffield anyway and those that don't tend to terminate at Hull and then form a service to York where the 90mph capability of the 158 comes in handy.

Also I think I will cease posting on this thread from now seeing as I'm doing nothing but dragging it miles off topic :oops:;)
 

YorkshireBear

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A 155/156 would be fine on just the Hull to Bridlington run. The problem is that most of the services run through to Sheffield anyway and those that don't tend to terminate at Hull and then form a service to York where the 90mph capability of the 158 comes in handy.

Also I think I will cease posting on this thread from now seeing as I'm doing nothing but dragging it miles off topic :oops:;)

ah i see didnt realise that about it. think i might have to too then :/
 

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Appologies if it's been stated somewhere else, but 321411 which was noted earlier as undergoing re-furb at Ilford is now on hire to NXEA. Was seen gleeming yesterday in it's new colours on the Harwich branch shuttle, & today arriving into Colchester North from the 'Town'. Just need it in platform 4 at Ipswich nose to nose with LM liveried TOC mates 153354/364 :).
 

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Appologies if it's been stated somewhere else, but 321411 which was noted earlier as undergoing re-furb at Ilford is now on hire to NXEA. Was seen gleeming yesterday in it's new colours on the Harwich branch shuttle, & today arriving into Colchester North from the 'Town'. Just need it in platform 4 at Ipswich nose to nose with LM liveried TOC mates 153354/364 :).

321415 is about on GE metals to. That one is till in Silverlink livery though
 

NXEA!

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The amount of sets being hired in from other TOC's doesn't surprise me at all, there's a serious backlog on maintenance which is also why 315's are substituting for 317's recently, and other 321's are being hired in. Several sets such as 317511 and 514 and 315830/850 (can't remember which one, or it may be both) haven't been used in over a year or more, and a few 321's haven't seen use in months or a year such as 346/425. These sets are just providing parts for other sets and not being returned to traffic it seems. I know that Ilford has a lot of work and other sets to maintain, but couldn't a couple of the healthier sets out of traffic be sent to somewhere like Hornsey or Ashford or somewhere like that to returned to traffic? It seems that NXEA can't be bothered with returning these to service.
 

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Why do we read so many horror stories about poor maintenance or cutbacks at Ilford? Over the years (right back to when I was on the uk.railway newsgroups) I remember hearing bad things about maintenance.

Hornsey always seems the opposite, which can't be praised enough.

What's the difference? At one point, both were part of National Express.
 
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The 315 that's been out of service for what seems like years is 315850. 859 has also been out of service for a number of months too.
 

87015

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Why do we read so many horror stories about poor maintenance or cutbacks at Ilford? Over the years (right back to when I was on the uk.railway newsgroups) I remember hearing bad things about maintenance.

Hornsey always seems the opposite, which can't be praised enough.

What's the difference? At one point, both were part of National Express.

Hornsey has far more slack in the unit diagrams and a lot less outstanding so a lot more opportunity to sort things out!

Ilford must have one of the biggest unit allocations, at least apart from the Southern?
 

NXEA!

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Hornsey has far more slack in the unit diagrams and a lot less outstanding so a lot more opportunity to sort things out!

Ilford must have one of the biggest unit allocations, at least apart from the Southern?
Once the 379's enter traffic, Ilford will have THE biggest allocation of units. 61 315's, 51 317's, 94 321's, 21 360's and 30 379's. That's 257 EMU's plus the occasional Mark 3 and Sprinter which comes for tyre turning or maintenance, other TOC's EMU's visit occasionally for maintenance, so they do have a lot on their plate. And the allocation will rise by 5 more when the 322's come...


 

87015

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Once the 379's enter traffic, Ilford will have THE biggest allocation of units. 61 315's, 51 317's, 94 321's, 21 360's and 30 379's. That's 257 EMU's plus the occasional Mark 3 and Sprinter which comes for tyre turning or maintenance, other TOC's EMU's visit occasionally for maintenance, so they do have a lot on their plate. And the allocation will rise by 5 more when the 322's come...



Are the 322s definitely coming back to IL? The Dec 11 timetable is bid next month and has no planned diagrams for them at the moment - can't see them coming down to sit around doing nothing, although could of course be used as 321s if not enough have been glued together in time.
 
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