Llangollen to Corwen complete - where next?

[Bletchleyite]

Off topic, sorry mods!: Wow, just looked up their "timetable" and what on earth is that! It's not being run as a railway, but a series of railtours. Utterly bizarre, and absolutely useless for anyone who wants anything more complex than a day return, e.g. walkers or people wanting time for lunch.

Apparently this is providing them more income than just having a railway style timetable, because it suggests the day out for you and is thus better marketing than just throwing a timetable and fares list at you, taking into account that a lot of their passengers won't normally use trains and thus won't find timetables familiar.

Perhaps the Llangollen could do with adding this type of marketing on top of their timetabled offering (you can still offer timetabled journeys and e.g. rover tickets for those who want them, mostly enthusiasts). It would be a lot easier to market the "Corwyn Belle" as a tour style experience (random name made up) than to just chuck timetables at people and let them work it out themselves.

 

[stuu]

I just looked at some photos of the new station in Corwen, that looks stunning. Top work

 

[John Luxton]

Off topic, sorry mods!: Wow, just looked up their "timetable" and what on earth is that! It's not being run as a railway, but a series of railtours. Utterly bizarre, and absolutely useless for anyone who wants anything more complex than a day return, e.g. walkers or people wanting time for lunch.

The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland "experience" approach has really stirred up passions. It was acceptable in 2020 and 2021 to get things running in the then prevailing climate but continuing it has very much divided opinion both amongst the general railway enthusiast world and even members of the supporting societies. I have got involved in a few online arguments in the past year including one the GM jumped into to justify the current modus operandi.

To be honest in if they would present the timetable information differently there is a real service operating behind these named train experiences I think most of us would rather see columned timetables with notes above each column showing what days the train operates. Not being presented with a list of dates on which various experiences are available.

At least Llangollen Railway and most other lines are now running a normal service - though I think Bala Lake which is another section of the Ruabon - Barmouth route really need to look at returning to normal ticketing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest in if they would present the timetable information differently there is a real service operating behind these named train experiences I think most of us would rather see columned timetables with notes above each column showing what days the train operates. Not being presented with a list of dates on which various experiences are available.

I don't see why you can't publish both, to be honest. That is, have named trains in the timetable also bookable (at the same price) as an experience.

Most "normals", who are the majority users of preserved railways, will prefer the curated experience. It's simple to book, obvious what you get and there's no confusing timetables to read, particularly as a lot of people now just use journey planners and never read timetables. Plus options like having a compartment reserved privately for your family is a benefit.

Most enthusiasts, who know about how timetables work, prefer a traditional approach, as do people wanting to do a walk based around the railway.

These appear to conflict, but in fact don't really - you can have unreserved coaches and publish the timetable of the experiences as well.

 

[John Luxton]

Perhaps the Llangollen could do with adding this type of marketing on top of their timetabled offering (you can still offer timetabled journeys and e.g. rover tickets for those who want them, mostly enthusiasts). It would be a lot easier to market the "Corwyn Belle" as a tour style experience (random name made up) than to just chuck timetables at people and let them work it out themselves.

No! Named trains are fine if it is something special. Llangollen Railway once had the popular Berwyn Belle dining train which seemed to fizzle out, I never went on it as it tended to run Sundays and I usually prefer to visit heritage lines on Saturdays if there was work on the Monday!

Llangollen need to promote it both as a tourist service and also an alternative to the bus. Discount tickets are available for local residents £50 unlimited travel for 12 months excluding gala days. That is very good value for money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Llangollen need to promote it both as a tourist service and also an alternative to the bus. Discount tickets are available for local residents £50 unlimited travel for 12 months excluding gala days. That is very good value for money.

Preserved railways rarely provide useful public transport, as the service is infrequent and the operating day very short. I don't see any point at all in pushing it as a bus substitute, the bus will generally offer a better service for public transport needs.

Sometimes a preserved railway happens to be useful for public transport, that's fine as long as the timetable is published. Or sometimes people will plan around it for the experience of using it to get somewhere, e.g. taking it to Snowdon Ranger then walking up the mountain.

There are exceptions like Corfe Castle where a frequent P&R service is operated, but this isn't really applicable to the Llangollen in the same way.

The £50 ticket isn't aimed at locals, it's aimed at being able to get Gift Aid, because memberships that include stuff are Gift Aidable (within reason) while just stuff isn't. It does mean locals will be able to use it very cheaply, but that isn't what it's for, indeed I suspect the railway would rather them not take advantage of it! What they're hoping for is that an occasional visitor will buy up to it because they might come again, the railway gets an extra 20% or so from the taxman, and hopefully they won't actually make it back within the 12 months.

 

[John Luxton]

I don't see why you can't publish both, to be honest. That is, have named trains in the timetable also bookable (at the same price) as an experience.

There is actually a columned timetable downloadable on a PDF file but it shows times for each experience train. So you then have to cross reference with the web site to see which experience is operating on the day you wish to travel. Would be much better to have a columned timetable for both lines with letter codes to show dates of operation for those who prefer to see at a glance what is operating. Last Thursday I took a trip from Caernarfon to Porthmadog and back and it was clear that unlike pre Covid there was little intermediate station traffic.

Contrast that to my visit the following day to Talyllyn and there was a lot of intermediate station traffic - but then Talyllyn is operating a normal service. I note they are in the experience market too - with a premium Quarryman Package on selected dates which includes a refreshments, photo stops and the Victorian carriages that is £39.00 but operates independently of the service trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is actually a columned timetable downloadable on a PDF file but it shows times for each experience train. So you then have to cross reference with the web site to see which experience is operating on the day you wish to travel. Would be much better to have a columned timetable for both lines with letter codes to show dates of operation for those who prefer to see at a glance what is operating. Last Thursday I took a trip from Caernarfon to Porthmadog and back and it was clear that unlike pre Covid there was little intermediate station traffic.

They'd have to pay someone to write it, but the obvious solution to this would be to add a page to the website where, like bustimes.org, you select the intended day of travel and it queries the database and generates a full traditional timetable for the day based on the experiences being operated.

 

[John Luxton]

The £50 ticket isn't aimed at locals, it's aimed at being able to get Gift Aid, because memberships that include stuff are Gift Aidable (within reason) while just stuff isn't. It does mean locals will be able to use it very cheaply, but that isn't what it's for, indeed I suspect the railway would rather them not take advantage of it! What they're hoping for is that an occasional visitor will buy up to it because they might come again, the railway gets an extra 20% or so from the taxman, and hopefully they won't actually make it back within the 12 months.

No mention of Gift Aid on the information page https://llangollen-railway.co.uk/re...ta Specials, evening events or charter trains.

It is not exactly a frequent bus service between Corwen and Llangollen the railway provides some useful in between times. I imagine now that Corwen has been reached there will be more uptake on the local residents tickets. Nothing to stop people using bus one way and train the other - opens up more transport options for those who do not have or choose not to use a car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No mention of Gift Aid on the information page https://llangollen-railway.co.uk/residents-passes/#:~:text=If you live in an LL20 or LL21,galas, Santa Specials, evening events or charter trains.

It is not exactly a frequent bus service between Corwen and Llangollen the railway provides some useful in between times. I imagine now that Corwen has been reached there will be more uptake on the local residents tickets. Nothing to stop people using bus one way and train the other - opens up more transport options for those who do not have or choose not to use a car.

Ah, perhaps I'm thinking of a different railway, there was definitely one that did do something like that for Gift Aid purposes.

Either way, the majority market for preserved railways is as a family day out.

 

[bramling]

The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland "experience" approach has really stirred up passions. It was acceptable in 2020 and 2021 to get things running in the then prevailing climate but continuing it has very much divided opinion both amongst the general railway enthusiast world and even members of the supporting societies. I have got involved in a few online arguments in the past year including one the GM jumped into to justify the current modus operandi.

To be honest in if they would present the timetable information differently there is a real service operating behind these named train experiences I think most of us would rather see columned timetables with notes above each column showing what days the train operates. Not being presented with a list of dates on which various experiences are available.

More and more railways are ditching the experience model, and soon Ffestiniog is going to be an outlier. We went on the South Tynedale Railway last month and had a very enjoyable day, they have essentially ditched the pre-booking this year.

I can see why Ffestiniog might want to sell experiences as a way of filling trains. So superimpose this on top of the traditional timetable.

It is bordering on insulting to insinuate that most of the population can’t understand a simple timetable for a railway which runs a few trains on a line with a few stations.

The other thing is that if you’re going to sell an “experience” it needs to be a high-quality one, something really special. I’m sure a lot of people will be underwhelmed at paying what is a significant sum of money for what is essentially a bog-standard train ride from Porthmadog to Beddgelert and back, for example.

 

[JKF]

Corwen to Bala (and beyond!) would work as a greenway/cycleway. The trackbed is largely unobstructed; I believe some of it is still owned by Denbighshire County Council; and it would work well with the wider family/outdoor tourism offer in the area.

If routed into the station there’s a potential good source of income for a cafe run by the railway if nothing else, this happens on some other preserved lines, my old cycling club when I lived in Yorkshire would occasionally have the cafe at Bolton Abbey station as a designated cake stop, and I’m pretty sure they get some passing trade at Bitton from the Bristol-Bath path.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is bordering on insulting to insinuate that most of the population can’t understand a simple timetable for a railway which runs a few trains on a line with a few stations.

It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it's easier to sell to "normals" a packaged experience than a timetable. It's easier to superimpose it on top of a timetable just by picking the trains that make sense to sell in this way.

I get why it's best not to sell in only this way, but I fail to see why offering it is a problem, other than a superiority complex of enthusiasts who don't bring in the majority of the money.

 

[bramling]

It's not that they don't understand it, it's that it's easier to sell to "normals" a packaged experience than a timetable. It's easier to superimpose it on top of a timetable just by picking the trains that make sense to sell in this way.

I get why it's best not to sell in only this way, but I fail to see why offering it is a problem, other than a superiority complex of enthusiasts who don't bring in the majority of the money.

I don’t have a problem with them *offering* it.

By all means sell an experience to BF and back under a name. The problem becomes that what FWHR are offering is essentially the same as what you’d have got in 2019 - in fact in many ways *worse* as your day is now much less flexible. Inflating the price *and* offering a lesser product doesn’t sit well with me.

There also seems to be an element of marketing with the names, presumably the idea is the name boards end up in photos which people then see. When we were up there in April I ended doing some photoshop work to edit out the name boards.

 

[John Luxton]

More and more railways are ditching the experience model, and soon Ffestiniog is going to be an outlier. We went on the South Tynedale Railway last month and had a very enjoyable day, they have essentially ditched the pre-booking this year.

I can see why Ffestiniog might want to sell experiences as a way of filling trains. So superimpose this on top of the traditional timetable.

It is bordering on insulting to insinuate that most of the population can’t understand a simple timetable for a railway which runs a few trains on a line with a few stations.

The other thing is that if you’re going to sell an “experience” it needs to be a high-quality one, something really special. I’m sure a lot of people will be underwhelmed at paying what is a significant sum of money for what is essentially a bog-standard train ride from Porthmadog to Beddgelert and back, for example.

I can see you and I are very much on the same wavelength. In one of the recent videos the GM mentioned the cost of the new headboards which have been specially cast for this season. If they were worrying about costs why waste money on headboards? Talyllyn seem to be going for the added value premium experience with their Quarryman Offering.

The way the FWHR is currently timetabled is frustrating to those wanting to do self intineraried circular tours involving Conwy Valley, Cambrian Lines and local bus services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2023 ==

other than a superiority complex of enthusiasts who don't bring in the majority of the money.

I don't think its got anything to do with enthusiasts.

Most members of Joe Public are familiar with timetables, even taught at schools.

 

[paul1609]

I seem to recall Corwen being some sort of hub on the Trawscymru bus system. If so, joint ticketing to/from Llangollen could add some business.

At the K & ESR we were fortunate to have an operating director of Stagecoach South East as a volunteer guard. We tried no end of bus special deals but they've always been very disappointing to the extent that some have never even sold a single ticket!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2023 ==

If I as a visitor from overseas can connect to and from TfW at Ruabon with the Arriva double decker route bus, hopefully so can you.

At Llangollen it stops very close to the railway station, and at Ruabon one merely has to walk a brief distance out to the 'main road' from the station (which has a footbridge IIRC, so no level access to one platform).

Indeed back in the days of WSMR I did a day trip to the Llangollen from Kent with no issues.

 

[Matt P]

There is zero chance of any further extensions of the Llangollen Railway.

The route to Ruabon is built on in several locations and neither Denbighshire of Wrexham have any planning policies to prevent further encroachment. The degree of encroachment already, notably within only a few hundred metres of Llangollen station, would be difficult to find a solution for if the Welsh or UK government were contemplating a Borders style reopening. There's no chance a heritage railway would find the resources to buy up or build around, even if the latter were possible.

Extending towards Corwen would be more straightforward because the trackbed is more complete, although not entirely. However it is all in private ownership so the first major hurdle would be buying the land. Secondly the only logical end point for the line west would be Bala. Cynwyd, Llandderfel and Llandrillo offer little as a tourist destination. Thirdly the resources required would be immense. If we looked at the trajectory of progress of the LR to date, it took 16 years for the railway to reach Carrog. It has taken 27 years to fully reopen to Corwen (although I appreciate there was a temporary station first). I think this illustrates the logistical challenges. Operating the railway would also be a challenge.

I think consolidation is the next step for the railway. Personally I'd also like to see the old Weston Rhyn signal box made fully operational at Corwen.

 

[John Luxton]

Personally I'd also like to see the old Weston Rhyn signal box made fully operational at Corwen.

I thought I read somewhere that completing the signalling is the next target.

From what I observed at present Carrog to Corwen appears to be running as one engine in steam thus it wouldn't be possible to pass arriving and departing trains at Corwen as is possible at Llangollen.

 

[Matt P]

I thought I read somewhere that completing the signalling is the next target.

From what I observed at present Carrog to Corwen appears to be running as one engine in steam thus it wouldn't be possible to pass arriving and departing trains at Corwen as is possible at Llangollen.

The Llangollen Railway has done quite a good job at preserving Shrewsbury and Chester signalling. But I have a soft spot for Weston Rhyn. It was a box I passed a lot as a child when we went the back way from Oswestry, where I lived, to Glyn Ceiriog where my grandparents lived. I also managed to see inside the box not all that long before it closed. Would like to see inside it again when it is operational at Corwen.

It has been quite a few years since I took a trip on the railway. The last time they were operating a busier time table with two trains running. They were crossing them at Deeside, which I assume was the main location for crossing outside of galas given was almost if not quite the mid point.

It would be good to see Corwen fully signalled and able to be used to pass trains, even if only for busier days or galas/events.

 

[John Luxton]

The Llangollen Railway has done quite a good job at preserving Shrewsbury and Chester signalling. But I have a soft spot for Weston Rhyn. It was a box I passed a lot as a child when we went the back way from Oswestry, where I lived, to Glyn Ceiriog where my grandparents lived. I also managed to see inside the box not all that long before it closed. Would like to see inside it again when it is operational at Corwen.

It has been quite a few years since I took a trip on the railway. The last time they were operating a busier time table with two trains running. They were crossing them at Deeside, which I assume was the main location for crossing outside of galas given was almost if not quite the mid point.

It would be good to see Corwen fully signalled and able to be used to pass trains, even if only for busier days or galas/events.

Deeside Loop has now been lifted just the Llangollen end point remains plus the old colour lights and box. The platform was removed early 2022 and the waiting shelter refurbished and placed on the Llangollen bound platform at Glyndyfrdwy. I think the logic is that Glyndyfrdwy is around the mid point and best passing place, plus of course there is also Carrog and Goods Junction - the line isn't exactly stuck for passing places.

 

[Techniquest]

I've just been having a nosey at Google Maps and the Llangollen Railway website, it appears there's some decent road cycling available in the area. I haven't yet looked too carefully, but certainly it's intrigued me.

More relevant to this thread though is that during the booking phase I had the option to pay £3 extra to take a cycle with me. That's quite a welcome thing for me, I'll have to work out exactly when I can go and take advantage of this new extension.

£19.50 for a day return, plus £3 for a cycle plus £1-something for taxes etc, not too bad for a 20 mile round trip. I sense this happening in the next few weeks!

 

[John Luxton]

I've just been having a nosey at Google Maps and the Llangollen Railway website, it appears there's some decent road cycling available in the area. I haven't yet looked too carefully, but certainly it's intrigued me.

More relevant to this thread though is that during the booking phase I had the option to pay £3 extra to take a cycle with me. That's quite a welcome thing for me, I'll have to work out exactly when I can go and take advantage of this new extension.

£19.50 for a day return, plus £3 for a cycle plus £1-something for taxes etc, not too bad for a 20 mile round trip. I sense this happening in the next few weeks!

It is very good biking territory both peddle and powered particularly over the Horseshoe Pass. Motor bikers often gather at the top of the Horseshoe Pass at weekends in the car park of the Ponderosa Cafe.

Though Llangollen is only about an hour's drive from where I live I sometimes have a few days at the Britannia Inn at the foot of the Horseshoe Pass about a mile and half out of town. As I wanted to visit several other railways in the area I stayed three nights there last weekend. On the Saturday evening I was gazing out of my room just as it was going dark and the moon was rising and several groups of push bikers went past in the twilight heading up hill. Not something one expects to see at around 22:00!

If you fancy staying in the area can highly recommend the Britannia Inn if you are looking for B&B plus an optional evening meal. Very good value for money too.

 

[paul1609]

It is very good biking territory both peddle and powered particularly over the Horseshoe Pass. Motor bikers often gather at the top of the Horseshoe Pass at weekends in the car park of the Ponderosa Cafe.

Though Llangollen is only about an hour's drive from where I live I sometimes have a few days at the Britannia Inn at the foot of the Horseshoe Pass about a mile and half out of town. As I wanted to visit several other railways in the area I stayed three nights there last weekend. On the Saturday evening I was gazing out of my room just as it was going dark and the moon was rising and several groups of push bikers went past in the twilight heading up hill. Not something one expects to see at around 22:00!

If you fancy staying in the area can highly recommend the Britannia Inn if you are looking for B&B plus an optional evening meal. Very good value for money too.

Has the horseshoe pass become the 40mph speed limit with average speed cameras yet?

 

[John Luxton]

Has the horseshoe pass become the 40mph speed limit with average speed cameras yet?

Yes the 40 limit went in last year.

 

[richard_S]

I would love to see the line extended to Bala. If it turned NW before the old Bala junction site it could terminate south of the A494 well within walking distance of the town. This route would keep it out of the Snowdonia national park. There would be enough room there to install a turntable. As to the line going towards Ruabon there are to many buildings now blocking the route. The bus service between Bala, Corwen and Llangollen is poor with an hourly service and at some times of the day 2 hourly ( lloyds coaches T3 service). Between Cynwyd and Llandderfel there are 2 campsites a halt there would pick up users of the sites boosting revenue. Its a shame that when Corwen station was built they did not raise it by 5 or 6 feet as it would have given a bridge over green lane better height clearance for traffic. A lot of people in Bala shop at Aldi in Llangollen I wonder id a line to Bala could carry online shopping to be brought to Bala for a nominal charge I for one would love to be able to do it and would use it regularly.

 

[Techniquest]

That online shopping idea sounds clever, I'll give you that, but I'd imagine the delivery charge would have to be huge to make it worthwhile. Especially for keeping fresh and frozen goods at the right temperature!

 

[8A Rail]

Deeside Loop has now been lifted just the Llangollen end point remains plus the old colour lights and box. The platform was removed early 2022 and the waiting shelter refurbished and placed on the Llangollen bound platform at Glyndyfrdwy. I think the logic is that Glyndyfrdwy is around the mid point and best passing place, plus of course there is also Carrog and Goods Junction - the line isn't exactly stuck for passing places.

The platform was condemned, hence the reason of closure. Once 'other' maintenance priorities have taken place on the railway, there is a wish and hope that the Halt will be re-instated at some point in the future. It also depends on who wishes to take the initiative and get a small group of volunteers together too. I sincerely hope it will be re-instated (along with the loop, otherwise why keep the signal box there) because it is one of the nicest places to be watching the occasional steam train passing as well as savouring the delights of the countryside.

 

[John Luxton]

The platform was condemned, hence the reason of closure. Once 'other' maintenance priorities have taken place on the railway, there is a wish and hope that the Halt will be re-instated at some point in the future. It also depends on who wishes to take the initiative and get a small group of volunteers together too. I sincerely hope it will be re-instated (along with the loop, otherwise why keep the signal box there) because it is one of the nicest places to be watching the occasional steam train passing as well as savouring the delights of the countryside.

It is a nice location but as a halt it saw little use after the line was extended and wasn't a previous stopping place before preservation is its restoration really justifiable on the basis its nice to have?

 

[8A Rail]

It is a nice location but as a halt it saw little use after the line was extended and wasn't a previous stopping place before preservation is its restoration really justifiable on the basis its nice to have?

The halt only came about because of the preserved railway and was used by occasional ramblers after the line was extended to Glyndyfrdwy in 1992! As for your latter thought, it goes back to what I stated in my original comment which was "It also depends on who wishes to take the initiative and get a small group of volunteers together too". There are people at the railway who wish to re-instate it but accept there are other priorities with the most important being catching up on some maintenance (as well as signalling at Corwen). So the 'halt' is one for the future.

 

[A S Leib]

Off topic, sorry mods!: Wow, just looked up their "timetable" and what on earth is that! It's not being run as a railway, but a series of railtours. Utterly bizarre, and absolutely useless for anyone who wants anything more complex than a day return, e.g. walkers or people wanting time for lunch.

They do have a PDF timetable as well (https://www.festrail.co.uk/pdf/timetable_2023.pdf) and you can still buy single tickets (I think by phone or at the ticket offices) but I agree that it's annoying. At least their intermediate stations are still open, unlike e.g. the Bure Valley Railway.