Liz Truss and the Conservative Party.

[yorksrob]

Seems like a half baked budget to me.

They should have concentrated on reforming the energy market, select support for those on lower income budgets and supporting small and medium businesses with costs.

At least they've frozen tax on booze, which might help pubs a bit.

 

[gg1]

I'm rather saddened that you feel this way.

How so? It cannot in anyway be considered fair and reasonable that I am gaining from the the same not-quite-a-budget that will be taking money away from those on the lowest incomes.

The people that we should all be angry with are those at the very top who are laughing all the way to the Bahamas bank at the expense of everyone else, low and middle income alike.

Indeed, and that's where my anger is directed, more specifically the current government who individually are either part of that group themselves or are in their pockets.

 

[DelayRepay]

Because we as a country are in debt and this will just increase the debt; savage spending cuts are going to be the inevitable consequence of such a policy somewhere down the line, as sure as night follows day. The first budget after the next election, if they somehow manage to win, is my bet for the timing for said cuts.

Of course, it's all about precisely that: attempting to win the next election. If we enter a black hole in say late 2024 or early 2025, shortly after said election, that's of little concern, I suspect, for the current regime if they manage that - as they will then be safe in power for a further four to five years.

When the Labour party lost the 2010 general election, the outgoing Chief Secretary to the Treasury reportedly left a note for his successor saying "there's no money left." And then followed the years of austerity. I wonder if the next Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who could well be part of a coalition government, will find a similar note on his first day in the office?

This budget feels like we've gone to one of those payday loan shops that used to be all over the high street, taken the maximum they'll give us with absolutely no thought whatsoever about what's going to happen next.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2022 ==

How so? It cannot in anyway be considered fair and reasonable that I am gaining from the the same not-quite-a-budget that will be taking money away from those on the lowest incomes.

I feel the same as you.

But even if I didn't, it also cannot be considered fair and reasonable that I have been signed up for some kind of 'buy now pay later' scheme that I did not want. I would rather pay my share of taxes now to make sure the NHS and benefits system continue to function. I'd rather not pass that debt onto the next generation.

 

[MikeWM]

Hospitality appear to be rather dismayed that a rumoured VAT cut for their industry wasn't part of the statement today. Expect lots more hospitality venues to permanently close over the next few months

 

[Wynd]

Anyone else think they are "kitchen-sink'ing" this in the hope of getting through the next election?

If this is a mini budget, whats in store in the maxi/full fat budget?

There are a lot of concerning aspects to this, but the long term issue with the UK economy is productivity, or the lack of it, which is driven by low investment.

Sunak pointed to this earlier in the year when he said low corp tax and incentives to invest, haven't actually worked.

There was nothing today to counter this, which is one of the reasons (massive borrowing to fund spending/tax cuts being the primary reasons) why the pound is falling and Gilt yields are up.

Investment is the lifeblood of growth, so why to businesses and owners of capital feel as they do, that the UK isn't nearly as invest-able as its peers?

 

[Herefordian]

There’s nothing conservative about the Conservatives. A completely offensive government.

I said as much recently myself.

It's why my Dad hasn't voted Conservative since 2010. Never have myself.

The Conservative Party, as it is, is nothing more than a convenient vessel to govern.

 

[DelayRepay]

The Guardian have this analysis from the Resolution Foundation:

The tax cuts confirmed today largely reverse those introduced by Rishi Sunak in recent years, but with a particular focus on higher income households driven by the reversal of the rise in national insurance and scrapping of the 45p rate of income tax. Someone earning £200,000 will gain £5,220 a year, rising to £55,220 for someone earning £1 million. Someone earning £20,000 will gain just £157.

Almost two-thirds (65 per cent) of the gains from personal tax cuts announced today go to the richest fifth of households, who will be better-off on average by £3,090 next year. Almost half (45 per cent) will go to the richest 5 per cent alone, who will be £8,560 better off. In contrast, just 12 per cent of the gains will go to the poorest half of households, who will be £230 better off on average next year.

Mini-budget 2022: pound crashes as chancellor cuts stamp duty and top rate of income tax – as it happened

Tax cuts to cost Treasury around £37bn in 2023-24, official figures reveal

www.theguardian.com

 

[jon0844]

This Government knows it's done. They are now just going to grab everything they can, lose, then let Labour come in and struggle so much that they'll be out in a single term.

Politicians rarely look long term, but on this they clearly know for a fact it's game over - so take as much money for the oil companies, corporations and the rich.

Can you imagine if the Tories actually win the next election? Look at what they'll 'inherit'.

The sales of champagne will shoot up in Tufton Street tonight though.

 

[SynthD]

Anyone else think they are "kitchen-sink'ing" this in the hope of getting through the next election?

Or is it kitchen sink’ing in terms of grabbing what they can from the public, especially the 90-99%, for their donors?

 

[Cdd89]

This Government knows it's done. They are now just going to grab everything they can, lose, then let Labour come in and struggle so much that they'll be out in a single term.

I actually wondered about a variation of this: knowing that Labour will need to be seen to increase taxes beyond the Tories’ current levels (whatever they may be at election time), lower them as far as possible to reduce the scale of the increase under a future Labour government.

 

[Typhoon]

Indeed. A VAT cut helps everybody, though it does help the well-heeled a bit more since low-income earners spend a greater proportion of their income on VAT-exempt/zero-rated items.

Not only that but it encourages people to spend, and spend in this country. I thought that had been the whole point of 'Eat out to help out', give retail (in that case hospitality) a lift up. Instead, the money is strongly tilted to the better off who, if they have any sense, will store it away off shore, or indulge themselves by, say, joining Philip Green at the marina in Monaco.

I don't know the answer to this but does the cut in stamp duty apply to second (third) homes? If so, expect more homes to go that way, house prices to rise and those struggling to get on the housing ladder to be no better off.

I didn't think it would matter at the time, but I have a feeling we'd have been better off with Sunak!

 

[SynthD]

I actually wondered about a variation of this: knowing that Labour will need to be seen to increase taxes beyond the Tories’ current levels (whatever they may be at election time), lower them as far as possible to reduce the scale of the increase under a future Labour government.

If the current cuts are only on high earners, Labour voters won’t change their vote because the party intends to undo the cuts. Tories won’t cut middle class taxes because it’s not in their interest to do so. Your interesting point is moot because the two parties have such different motivations.

Here is an example of that in a different area, including the necessary lies the politicians tell.

Jacob Rees-Mogg says opposition to fracking in the UK is being funded by Putin.

In other news, the Conservative Party has received £5 million from Russian donors since 2012.

 

[yorksrob]

Sunak would have at least come up with something sensible, but no, the Tory faithful have stiffed the country again.

 

[Yew]

I'm rather saddened that you feel this way. The people that we should all be angry with are those at the very top who are laughing all the way to the Bahamas bank at the expense of everyone else, low and middle income alike.

As someone who is currently claiming Universal Credit, it will be interesting to see what extra hoops are introduced (despite being in the limited capability for work group). They mentioned introducing meetings with work coaches; this happens already. If they want to make those meetings more frequent, which I suspect will be the route that the DWP will take, then the number of sanctions is going to go through the roof as people simply cannot afford to attend. I also refuse to believe their nonsense about providing additional support; the Job Centres simply do not have the staff to do this.

One measure that would have helped everyone would have been a cut in VAT, but there's little point in suggesting this to a government that is so hell-bent on enriching their mates and feathering their own nests for when they eventually get shown the door.

I have a French friend who often talks about how when she was attending the French version of the job centre, the focus was on finding people careers for the longer term, rather than just shuffling them off to the next insecure temp agency. It wouldn't surprise me if it's more cost effective in the longer run - people with careers progress, pay more tax, and are less likely to be unemployed in 6 months.

 

[jon0844]

Jacob is clever because now if you're against fracking, you will now be accused of supporting Russia (I expect many right wing commentators and press will be saying just that all over the coming weeks). And if you don't support Putin then of course you must allow fracking.

The Tories also accused those who supported Jeremy of being anti semitic. Labour had enough issues as it was, but I think this had a noticeable effect on voting.

And, of course, anyone who has any sympathy for the plight of those coming to the UK in boats are unpatriotic and should leave the country.

 

[Howardh]

This Government knows it's done. They are now just going to grab everything they can, lose, then let Labour come in and struggle so much that they'll be out in a single term.

Politicians rarely look long term, but on this they clearly know for a fact it's game over - so take as much money for the oil companies, corporations and the rich.

Can you imagine if the Tories actually win the next election? Look at what they'll 'inherit'.

The sales of champagne will shoot up in Tufton Street tonight though.

At the next election they'll be on the "Labour will scrap Brexit" page. Actually I'd put that to the country now - choice of back in Europe (single market), tax the rich, the companies, help the low income workers and pensioners - or keep Brexit, sit there, suffer and keep your mouth shut.

 

[Yew]

This budget feels like we've gone to one of those payday loan shops that used to be all over the high street, taken the maximum they'll give us with absolutely no thought whatsoever about what's going to happen next.

Do you remember the days when the Conservatives keenly asserted that relatively sensible left wing plans to borrow and invest the money back in the economy were derided as "reckless", with numerous comparisons made to the Weimar Republic and Zimbabwe by the Conservatives?

And now Liz is borrowing to keep the lights on...

 

[Broucek]

We shouldn’t forget that the top rate of income tax was 40% up until just a few weeks before the end of the last Labour government and the new top rate was as much a political trap as anything else.

Personally I think it would have been better to have done away with the 100k+ erosion of the personal allowance as mentioned upthread and to have increased the 45% threshold to a much bigger number (250k?). BTW neither the 100k or 150k thresholds have EVER been increased

 

[Wynd]

Do you remember the days when the Conservatives keenly asserted that relatively sensible left wing plans to borrow and invest the money back in the economy were derided as "reckless", with numerous comparisons made to the Weimar Republic and Zimbabwe by the Conservatives?

And now Liz is borrowing to keep the lights on...

How could we forget.

Fix the roof while the sun is shining. Put something aside for a rainy day. Live within our means. Strong and stable.

Whats particularity annoying is the Rishi Sunak index linked UK debt, so we are now beginning to pay eye watering interest bills, when we could have locked in record low borrowing rates just a few months back by issuing long dated bonds.

The torys have lost any credibility in fiscal management, and they are also being drained of monetary competence. Look at the value of the pound now. $1.10. That's horrendous.

 

[WatcherZero]

At a time where there is very low unemployment and increased barriers to Migrant workers, expecting tax cuts and increased consumer spending to generate growth without a large inflationary pressure on wages seems economically illiterate, combine that with the inflationary pressure from energy prices and we could be on course for super inflation. Wouldnt be surprised if Gilt rates are going through the ceiling right now and markets are panicking. This budget was obviously designed by politicians rather than people with even the simplest education in economics.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t often comment on political matters on these pages. But this budget is just wrong.

Kwarteng is a very, very clever man; I’ve met him. I really don’t understand how removing the 45% top rate, can be seen as anything but rewarding the rich. He must know that.

more importantly, it is clear that there is a big question mark over how this is all to be funded. The markets have spoken, and the Treasury will be very spooked (Or, potentially, preparing a “told you so, Chancellor” note).

 

[Typhoon]

At the next election they'll be on the "Labour will scrap Brexit" page. Actually I'd put that to the country now - choice of back in Europe (single market), tax the rich, the companies, help the low income workers and pensioners - or keep Brexit, sit there, suffer and keep your mouth shut.

But elements of the press are still peddling 'Brexit'

Truss plays Brexit masterstroke as 'ruling out US trade deal strengthens hand' in EU talks​

I haven't quite worked out the logic there ('We demand you accept our plan because we have no-one else to turn to') but I'm sure there must be something in it or it wouldn't appear in the Express.

 

[yorksrob]

It's all about the "trickle down effect" i.e. that thing they flanelled on about in the 1980's which didn't work then either.

 

[jon0844]

At the next election they'll be on the "Labour will scrap Brexit" page. Actually I'd put that to the country now - choice of back in Europe (single market), tax the rich, the companies, help the low income workers and pensioners - or keep Brexit, sit there, suffer and keep your mouth shut.

At this point, I think a lot of people might actually realise Brexit was a disaster and vote for change - so going down the 'Labour/LibDems would take you back in to Europe' campaigning route might backfire somewhat. Whether voters would admit to supporting such a move or not is another thing (I am sure many are scared to oppose Brexit) but once you're in the polling booth or ticking a box to put in the post, nobody needs know.

As time goes on, like we saw about support for the Iraq war in 2003, people will pretend they were against it despite supporting it at the time. I bet lots of Brexit supporters have gone very quiet of late.

Likewise, plenty of people pretend to hate the Tories but still vote Tory, although surely the middle classes are starting to catch on by now? The question is whether they'll change their vote after perhaps a lifetime of voting Tory.

I stopped voting Conservative since the referendum, and can't see how I could ever support them again in my lifetime.

 

[brad465]

I don’t often comment on political matters on these pages. But this budget is just wrong.

Kwarteng is a very, very clever man; I’ve met him. I really don’t understand how removing the 45% top rate, can be seen as anything but rewarding the rich. He must know that.

more importantly, it is clear that there is a big question mark over how this is all to be funded. The markets have spoken, and the Treasury will be very spooked (Or, potentially, preparing a “told you so, Chancellor” note).

The writing was on the wall for this reckless budget when Tom Scholar was sacked and the Government refused to allow the OBR to publish economic forecasts for this statement.

 

[dosxuk]

I haven't quite worked out the logic there ('We demand you accept our plan because we have no-one else to turn to') but I'm sure there must be something in it or it wouldn't appear in the Express.

I think the idea is that the US can't tell us to follow what we agreed to with the threat of calling off a trade deal with them if we called off the trade deal ourselves.

It's toddler level negotiation "if you won't let me do as I want I won't talk to you either!".

 

[yorksrob]

By all accounts, there's precious little to be gained from this mythical trade deal owing to the close trading relationship we already have with the US.

I did say we'd probably end up wishing we hadn't got rid of Boris.

 

[Bald Rick]

I did say we'd probably end up wishing we hadn't got rid of Boris.

I think many will end up wishing we hadn’t got rid of Gordon Brown. The benefit of hindsight!

 

[DarloRich]

I don’t often comment on political matters on these pages. But this budget is just wrong.

Kwarteng is a very, very clever man; I’ve met him. I really don’t understand how removing the 45% top rate, can be seen as anything but rewarding the rich. He must know that.

more importantly, it is clear that there is a big question mark over how this is all to be funded. The markets have spoken, and the Treasury will be very spooked (Or, potentially, preparing a “told you so, Chancellor” note).

The Tories simply dont care. This budget isnt about helping people. It is about helping THEIR people.

Clue: you, I or us are not their people.

EDIT: The pound is tanking v the dollar. If this economic situation occured under a labour government the tory media and the tory talking heads would be up in arms and demanding the army take charge! Not a word today. Funny that...........

 

[DerekC]

I did say we'd probably end up wishing we hadn't got rid of Boris.

"Always keep a-hold of Nurse, for fear of finding something worse"? I am not sure it has got to that yet. Does the House of Commons get to vote on this wonder package, or is that bypassed by it being a mini-budget?