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LIVID! Just got a penalty fare!

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jon0844

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(Off topic) If a ticket machine only accepted coins (or indeed exact money only) then I would have thought xtradj would have been able to pay at the destination too? I always wondered why a machine that couldn't give change never gave the customer the OPTION to overpay, and perhaps issue a credit usable on the railway (or refundable at a ticket office within xx days) so that money wasn't lost. Mind you, that's perhaps worthy of a separate thread.

Anyway, back to 'my' thread (!):

No letter from FCC as yet with regards to the appeal yet. Not sure how long these take.

Also, I never got any confirmation or response to the email I sent them either. I must admit I am slightly disappointed that FCC didn't reply to a personal email, but I guess management has changed quite a bit since 2006 and perhaps they do things differently now.
 
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yorkie

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mate you got caught so just pay it, whats £20?
He got "caught" doing what, exactly?
you could have got off at Hatfield but didnt as you didnt want to que.
You could have familiarised yourself with the rules, but you didn't want to bother.

As I've said before, there is absolutely no reason why anyone should get off anywhere on their journey to buy a ticket, if the ticket they require is unavailable at their origin station.

If you disagree with that, then TOUGH because that IS the rule, and any right-minded thinking person would not believe that customers should inconvenience themselves in such a way.
I see your point,
You blatantly don't.
but technically you could have bought an extension at Hatfield as annoying as it sounds
And you could have read the rules, as annoying as it sounds. WHY should he get off at Hatfield? To satisfy you? Err, nope.

i got a £20 on the spot fine on the Newcastle metro. I dont live there and have only visted once. I had notes on me, and the ticket machines ONLY accepted coins. Once i arrived at Newcastle from South Shields i explained i only had notes and would pay now, but they wouldnt let me. Very unfair as i explained i wasnt even local, but this is life! Technically i could have waited for the next train and changed my notes into coins.
I'm sure that's no grounds for a penalty fare to be issued. However this is a separate issue, worthy of a separate topic.
So i had no arguement just like yourself
No, your situation is not "just like" jonmorris0844s. jonmorris0844 was unable to buy the ticket because the station he originated from is unable to sell it.
 

clagmonster

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The T&W Metro passenger states that if you are unable to buy a ticket from the machine, then you should use the help point to speak to the control centre. If had no notes, were travelling to one of the staffed stations or city centre stations with a change machine, if you contacted the help point then I reckon you would have a decent chance of being authorised to pay at your destination.
Also, the local bus company where I live state on there website that in the event of a driver being unable to give change a voucher will be issued, just as Jon suggest, which shows this is possible when buying from a human, I am sure it could be implemented on automatic ticket machines as well.

Onto the original topic, I believe Jon was in the right, the station at which he boarded did not have the facilities to issue the ticket for the journey he was making, he did not change trains and there was nobody on the train to purchase the ticket from. Therefore, he tried to purchase his ticket at the first reasonable opportunity.
 

jon0844

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Therefore, he tried to purchase his ticket at the first reasonable opportunity.

And have done so before, which made even more of a nonsense of the situation! If it had been my first time, and I hadn't asked for clarification, and I wasn't a member of this forum, I might just have believed I was in the wrong and paid up.

It does make me wonder how many other people might get in this situation. Probably not many, sure, but certainly some. Or else people are feeling obliged to alight from the train they're on and buy a new ticket and wait for a later train to carry on.

What other London Underground managed stations would allow a similar situation to happen with regards to a ticket extension? Is Farringdon a LU station? Could I buy a ticket extension from there, from say St Albans to Bedford? They can issue ticket extensions from a boundary zone though can't they?
 

b0b

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Is Farringdon a LU station? Could I buy a ticket extension from there, from say St Albans to Bedford? They can issue ticket extensions from a boundary zone though can't they?

Farringdon is managed by London Underground but I used to buy Boundary Zone 4 to East Croydon returns, with a YP discount, all the time so I could stay on the Thameslink service to East Croydon, rather than endure a tube + all stations to Selhurst / Norwood Junction train.
 

jon0844

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Well, I got home today to find a letter - and guess what... I won! Bet that comes as a shock to you all!! :)

I will expect to get a refund from FCC in the future, less the cost of the ticket they should have sold me. That's a refund of £1.30!

Shame they don't cover the postage for the appeal, as that leaves me about 35-40p out of pocket! Not that I care because the RPI in question was at Hatfield tonight and gave me a long stare - if he's working there tomorrow, I can ask him for that apology he promised.

I'm now in smug mode - although I am disappointed nobody from FCC ever got in touch with me.

PFN-Appeal-Win.jpg
 

Mojo

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I will expect to get a refund from FCC in the future, less the cost of the ticket they should have sold me. That's a refund of £1.30!

Shame they don't cover the postage for the appeal, as that leaves me about 35-40p out of pocket! Not that I care because the RPI in question was at Hatfield tonight and gave me a long stare - if he's working there tomorrow, I can ask him for that apology he promised.

I'm now in smug mode - although I am disappointed nobody from FCC ever got in touch with me.
Surely you are entitled to a refund for the postage costs? Can you write to FCC in asking for your refund to advise them you expect a refund for the cost of postage and sending your letter?
 

yorkie

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There's a mistake surely? The admin fee is £0.00. Given that the TOCs claim it costs them £10 to change a ticket, I reckon you should at least be given a £10 admin fee. I'd say some compensation should also be due for the stress caused by the false accusations of the inspector.

If the TOCs get away without giving anything back, then I feel that we should campaign to get the rules on PFs changed. False accusations should result in admin fees being paid to customers IMO.
 

jon0844

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I shall wait to get a letter from FCC and then perhaps write back to ask for the postage (including that letter). I am going to wait in case they offer something as a goodwill gesture off their own back.

Personally, my satisfaction will come from asking him for a full apology as he promised he'd do if he was proven wrong (which is odd, given he said he was 100% right). Now I'm so glad I said to him he should change that to 99.99% sure!
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . in case they offer something as a goodwill gesture off their own back.
Possible, but if so, it would probably have been included in the "apology" and "compensation" letter.

Its not usual for a company to automatically include a customer's admin costs in a settlement which corrects a minor error. However, if a reasonable claim is made at the time of making the initial claim (eg £10 for a letter or £20 if it includes copies of documentary evidence), then its likely that it would have been granted.
I'm sorry to be suggesting this after the event rather than beforehand, because it would now involve both you and the company in more correspondence, where you could have been offered a modest compensation for admin if you'd claimed it with your initial claim. Perhaps other in the future could consider this option.
 

Greenback

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Well, I got home today to find a letter - and guess what... I won! Bet that comes as a shock to you all!! :)

I will expect to get a refund from FCC in the future, less the cost of the ticket they should have sold me. That's a refund of £1.30!

Shame they don't cover the postage for the appeal, as that leaves me about 35-40p out of pocket! Not that I care because the RPI in question was at Hatfield tonight and gave me a long stare - if he's working there tomorrow, I can ask him for that apology he promised.

I'm now in smug mode - although I am disappointed nobody from FCC ever got in touch with me.

View attachment 2507

It's disappointing they did not reply to your original email to them. But you may get something from them shortly...

There's a mistake surely? The admin fee is £0.00. Given that the TOCs claim it costs them £10 to change a ticket, I reckon you should at least be given a £10 admin fee. I'd say some compensation should also be due for the stress caused by the false accusations of the inspector.

If the TOCs get away without giving anything back, then I feel that we should campaign to get the rules on PFs changed. False accusations should result in admin fees being paid to customers IMO.

Agreed. The RPI's error has caused Jon hassle to sort out, hassle that ould have been avoided if the RPI had known the situation at Old Street, or had investigated fully rather than blithely making assertions that were calculated to bully the customer. Where such errors occur, the customer should be compensated appropriately. In this case, the least I would expect is an apology and an assurance that it will not happen again!

Possible, but if so, it would probably have been included in the "apology" and "compensation" letter.

Its not usual for a company to automatically include a customer's admin costs in a settlement which corrects a minor error. However, if a reasonable claim is made at the time of making the initial claim (eg £10 for a letter or £20 if it includes copies of documentary evidence), then its likely that it would have been granted.
I'm sorry to be suggesting this after the event rather than beforehand, because it would now involve both you and the company in more correspondence, where you could have been offered a modest compensation for admin if you'd claimed it with your initial claim. Perhaps other in the future could consider this option.

Unloess I;ve missed something, the company (FCC) did not send the letter, so could not have offered the compensation. The letter is from the Penalty Fares Appeals people. I hope that now they have made their ruling FCC will have the decency to provide a full apology and compensation for the error by their representative.
 

nedchester

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Well, I got home today to find a letter - and guess what... I won! Bet that comes as a shock to you all!! :)

I will expect to get a refund from FCC in the future, less the cost of the ticket they should have sold me. That's a refund of £1.30!

Shame they don't cover the postage for the appeal, as that leaves me about 35-40p out of pocket! Not that I care because the RPI in question was at Hatfield tonight and gave me a long stare - if he's working there tomorrow, I can ask him for that apology he promised.

I'm now in smug mode - although I am disappointed nobody from FCC ever got in touch with me.

View attachment 2507

Looks like it's been a good day for victories over jobsworths at train companies?!!!!
 

jon0844

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Another 'Londoner' RPI at Hatfield this morning that might need a little training, not on revenue issues but rather the stations on the route and where they're currently working.

Someone just asked how to get to New Barnet and was told to cross over the bridge and head north, from Hatfield!

Luckily the kid was corrected by another member of staff before he set off, as I'd hate to see what would happen to him if 'caught' along the way! At best, he'd simply be late on account of waiting for trains that would never announce New Barnet as a calling point.

Where is FCC getting its staff from?
 

jon0844

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Got my letter from FCC today. A cheque for £1.30 and that's it! So, I guess I'm not due any sort of explanation or apology.

I've had absolutely nothing from them, so I guess they're not that bothered.

I wonder what will happen next time I go to WGC! If they try and give me a PF, this time I'll be refusing it and asking for them to refer me to court.

Refund-from-FCC.jpg

Rather than bank it, I think I might frame it!!
 

Greenback

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Looks a bit grudging, but it looks like its only an automated remittance advice. I'm disappointed they didn't have the decency to apologise, include a covering letter to that effect, reply to your initial email or, preferably, all of those!
 

jon0844

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I will probably fire off an email, or possibly a good old fashioned letter that I can drop off in my lunch break, in the coming weeks to express my disappointment.

Then they can ignore that letter too!
 

Aictos

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Another 'Londoner' RPI at Hatfield this morning that might need a little training, not on revenue issues but rather the stations on the route and where they're currently working.

Someone just asked how to get to New Barnet and was told to cross over the bridge and head north, from Hatfield!

Luckily the kid was corrected by another member of staff before he set off, as I'd hate to see what would happen to him if 'caught' along the way! At best, he'd simply be late on account of waiting for trains that would never announce New Barnet as a calling point.

Where is FCC getting its staff from?

I don't know where FCC is recruiting it's newest staff but a basic understanding of stations served from one's place of work should be a industry wide requirement, I'm not expecting someone from Swansea to know all the stations between Inverness and Aberdeen but to know the stations in their local area and also be aware of where the main interchange stations are across the UK.

Knowing your patch helps the passenger as you know which routes they're better off taking, how long the proposed journey takes or even which stations to use.
 

jon0844

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I went to WGC yesterday and was asked if I was going back to Hatfield, which I was this time. He said I could go out and simply buy a ticket to Hatfield from upstairs.

So, he let me out - and I went upstairs and bought my ticket back to Hatfield. I even bought a return, so I paid the £1.80 instead of £1.70!

No hassle. No interrogation about why I didn't buy a ticket from Old Street (and I did say I'd come from there) and even a smile from the member of staff. I say smile, not smirk, as it wasn't the same staff there as before.

Also, when I got my ticket - the TVM had two tickets already in it; a return ticket and a receipt. Someone had bought a return and gone off with just the OUT ticket. I handed it in to the ticket office.
 

Greenback

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I don't know where FCC is recruiting it's newest staff but a basic understanding of stations served from one's place of work should be a industry wide requirement, I'm not expecting someone from Swansea to know all the stations between Inverness and Aberdeen but to know the stations in their local area and also be aware of where the main interchange stations are across the UK.

Knowing your patch helps the passenger as you know which routes they're better off taking, how long the proposed journey takes or even which stations to use.

One of the advantages I had when I started work in the ticket office was that I had an excellent grasp of geography after working for the Post Office for seven years! Also, I had been reading the BR timetable since 1982! So, despite being from Swansea I knew where Haltwhistle is on the network, and knew that Elgin was between Inverness and Aberdeen!

Some I'd never heard of though were Langley Mill, Sole Street, and a lot of London suburban stations like Syon Lane. This did cause a few problems until I had a bit of experience, but I did have a bit of a head start over one of my new entrant colelagues, who thought Holyhead was near Newcastle (Holy ISland must have caused the confusion!)
 
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jon0844

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I met the RPI who PF'd me this morning. Actually, he spotted me.

Funny thing is that when I first arrived, he was moaning about how First were messing him around, and not paying him his overtime. In fact, he was clearly very angry with the way he was being treated.

He saw me and said 'hey did you win your appeal?' and I replied 'of course'. He looked rather surprised and clearly didn't believe me. I then had great pleasure in saying he owed me an apology, which he claimed never to have said. Funny how he can remember me and approach me, but has forgotten a few key details.

He said he'd apologise if I could provide proof, which - funnily enough I could. I have been keeping the letter (including the FCC website Q&A) in my wallet for this very day.

When I showed it to him, I got a very sheepish and totally put on 'sorry'. Worse for him was that he was standing with colleagues where one already knew about the incident (and smiled at me). The other didn't know, and asked why I couldn't buy a ticket at Hatfield before travelling - so I guess FCC hasn't actually told anyone the rules. I suspect I'll still get hassle another day from another member of staff.

At the end, before my train arrived, the RPI said it wasn't his fault as it was his boss (maybe he did go and ask someone in the ticket office upstairs at WGC). I said that he could have called Old Street to check. He asked me how he could do that as he didn't know the number (well, SOMEONE could have called then?) and that argument was clearly going nowhere. I am sure he still thinks he's right and that I was just lucky to get off.

I pointed out that he'd been rude and condescending and he insisted he hadn't, but didn't want to get into an argument as I think I had the upper hand and would have lost it if I resorted to such bickering. I thanked him for his apology, about as sincerely as he'd apologised to me, and left it at that.

I'd love to know how he 'spun' the story to his colleagues after to save face. I guess he's going to tell them that I am clearly up to no good and was trying it on. Shame for him that I know one of the others very well.

I can't wait until he next 'catches' me in first class on a declassified service. I am sure he'll be itching to get back at me. Sadly for him, I don't break the rules so there's no chance of that EVER happening.

I still don't know his name for sure. I was given a name by my description, but I'm not so sure - as there was someone else I saw the other day with that name. I think I was misinformed. Like last time, he doesn't wear a name badge (or it's hidden underneath a jumper or coat). I wish I'd taken a photo of him - although I'll probably be able to get it by asking one of the other two another day.
 
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CarterUSM

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I'm very pleased you won your appeal but I really wouldn't bring myself down to this particular chaps level. From what you've said, even entering into conversation with him seems a waste. I've always preferred that wonderful smug grin of pure self satisfaction. :) I certainly wouldn't consider taking photographs, just get on with your life and put this issue to bed.
 

jon0844

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To clarify, I didn't mean I'd get a photo by asking a colleague - I meant get his name by asking them.

I'd have only taken the photo to show someone who could identify him, not to post it anywhere. Clearly the process of taking a photo would have almost certainly escalated the situation, and was therefore not an option.
 

CarterUSM

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I see, my apologies. :) Still a good result all round. If the chap is any person at all, he may adapt his future behaviour to prevent any re-occurrence of a farce such as this has been.
 

jon0844

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Well, I doubt he'll PF me if I see him at WGC again. Can you imagine if he did? I'd refuse and ask for the MG11 route. Get it sorted one and for all.
 

yorkie

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Unfortunately it does appear that some RPI/barrier staff are out to 'catch people out' It's a minority, but they give the industry a bad name. It's a world away from up here, where you have your ticket checked on almost every journey by mostly cheerful, friendly staff who are happy to sell tickets and help passengers in any way they can, some going out of their way to give connection information, and treat customers as customers.

As for if he sees you in similar circumstances again, he may try the typical cop-out of saying he will "let you off"! Some people do not like to admit they are wrong and that's their way of getting out of the situation without admitting anything.
 

nedchester

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To clarify, I didn't mean I'd get a photo by asking a colleague - I meant get his name by asking them.

I'd have only taken the photo to show someone who could identify him, not to post it anywhere. Clearly the process of taking a photo would have almost certainly escalated the situation, and was therefore not an option.

Nothing wrong with getting a photo when you're being gripped by someone who doesn't know his job:

http://nedchester.fotopic.net/p64211457.html

:D
 

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Unfortunately it does appear that some RPI/barrier staff are out to 'catch people out' It's a minority, but they give the industry a bad name. It's a world away from up here, where you have your ticket checked on almost every journey by mostly cheerful, friendly staff who are happy to sell tickets and help passengers in any way they can, some going out of their way to give connection information, and treat customers as customers.

As for if he sees you in similar circumstances again, he may try the typical cop-out of saying he will "let you off"! Some people do not like to admit they are wrong and that's their way of getting out of the situation without admitting anything.

It's the same down here. A ticketless lady was even let through the barrier in Swansea the day before yesterday without a ticket, as she would have missed the train if she had gone to the ticket office! I thought this was good, as she wanted the Milford service to Haverfordwest and would have had to wait two hours for the next one. The conductor was a little surprised though!
 

peterinsurrey

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with today's mobile phone technology, if someone is having issues like the old street example (contradictions between railway companies), perhaps using the 'video camera' feature might help in situations like Old Street vs FCC. Only a thought!
 

jon0844

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I guessed this would happen. It seems that I've now got a new enemy in the form of the RPI that gave me my PF!!

Last week, I went to WGC again. He was there with some other RPIs that had come on the same train as me (but weren't gripping – or I'd have been able to get my extension) and was laughing with them.

When I got to ask for my ticket extension, he pretended he didn't know me (funny how he'd approached me from a distance to ask if I won my appeal last time I saw him) and kept asking where I'd boarded. I said Old Street, for him to say 'where?' as if I'd said something stupid (but I speak very clearly). I said it again and he paused for thought, stepped aside and said 'get a ticket upstairs'. Rather odd really, as he's gone from issuing penalty fares in error to letting me leave the station. I guess someone has spoken to him, as he still didn't believe me when I'd proven he was wrong last time - figuring I was lucky to win the appeal.

Still, I did the right thing – and went upstairs and bought a ticket to Hatfield (the exact same cost). As I did so, the two RPIs came up and left the station and saw me buying the ticket. I am sure they were quite surprised, expecting that I'd have just walked out. Still, that would make me a total hypocrite.

Anyway, today, he comes on – on his own – into the first class carriage of my train. For the record, it's declassified.

He then sees some tickets and starts off on the 'this is first class'. Okay, fair enough – he may not realise at this point. He's then told by two other passengers that it isn't on this service.

And this is when he showed his true colours. He told us all that it definitely was first class, and when told what train it was to look up – he said 'this isn't the xx.xx train'. Surely he has some sort of schedule of trains to cover and would know?

No, he's now getting his pad ready to issue a bunch of penalties, even though pretty much everyone in the compartment is now telling him HE'S wrong.

Then he said another thing that must be his trademark; 'Listen, if I'm wrong – I'll happily apologise', suggesting we can all take a penalty fare and appeal. We would then have to find him and ask him to apologise. I now know his modus operandi – give as many penalty fares as possible, then say how you can appeal. No bloody way this time! I'd have happily got him to call BTP before accepting another 'illegal' penalty.

He simply won't EVER believe what anyone says, even if he's told by multiple people that he's wrong. That worries me. Are we all conspiring to rip off FCC, or is there a chance that we might be right? And shouldn't he at least check before going for the PF pad?

I also told him he didn't apologise to me, quite loudly, which made him lose it. He shouted at me that he did apologise, and I said he didn't at first – and I'd had to show him a letter to PROVE I'd won the appeal and then ask him to apologise, which he did sarcastically. Very childish arguing, on both our parts, but he's got the uniform and the authority and must have missed the training day on how to diffuse a situation or avoid allowing things to escalate.

Only when I think he realised that I was standing up to him (and today, he wore his name badge so I now know who he is!) and nobody was going to accept a PF did he look up the service he was actually on in the timetable. Of course, now he attempts to a make a strong apology (still obviously sarcastic) to prove that he does apologise and belittle me. It didn't wash, and people were saying how rude he was or sighing and smirking.

I know (as in see regularly on the train) someone that sat on the next row and she told me she had made complaints before about him, namely for being 'caught' on a declassified train. He'd now gone to deal with some people who didn't have a YPRC (and were travelling before 0930) but he was clearly listening because as soon as he heard her saying something about him, he rushed back and said 'if you're going to talk to a stranger about me, you can at least include me in the conversation'.

I said that we knew each other, and neither of us had said anything that wasn't true. I'd said about the PF I'd got (and that I'd won the appeal) and she said she'd made two complaints. Hardly a case of getting lawyers involved for slander, especially as I'm sure both of us could quite easily substantiate our claims. We then had a bit of an argument about discretion, which I said he had – but he didn't comment.

Instead, he asks to see my ticket again. He looks at it closely, then asks to see my Oyster card. I show it (it's a Barclaycard / Oyster card) and he asks what it was. I explain that the card is also the Oyster and invite him to scan it with his wand, but he declined. I'm not sure why showing an Oyster card is any good if you don't read it – but still. We both knew he was now just trying to be awkward.

Perhaps it was rude of me to talk about him in public, which WAS done as much for his benefit as for those around him. I should probably apologise to him for that (maybe in an equally condescending manner?), as I did once to another RPI that I had a bit of a go at for trying to issue a PF for sitting in a declassified first class compartment. In that case, I got off the train to find him and ultimately we shook hands, with him accepted his error and understanding my feelings. Somehow, I didn't feel like doing that today.

This guy LOVES confrontation and the feeling of power. To be honest, there's little point complaining to FCC either as they probably LOVE him. He must issue loads of penalty fares every day. He'd have issued at least 3 to the people without their railcards after I got off at Finsbury Park, and may well target other services with declassified first class services – on the basis that he'll issue a PF and then tell you to appeal it. The law of averages suggest that many of his penalty fares WILL be valid so perhaps the TOC isn't too bothered. After all, they issued a refund to me of just £1.30 when I won my appeal. That's considerably less than a lot of nice easy £20s.

Why do I just know that he's going to try and make my life a living hell from now on? He's going to be checking my ticket to embarrass me in the future, and look to catch me out at any opportunity. What's going to frustrate him most is that I won't ever BE travelling illegally. I could have even given him the ticket I bought the day he let me out of Welwyn Garden City to show that I'm not ripping off the railway. Goodness knows what he'd have made of that!!
 
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Greenback

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Llanelli
Where there rogue members of staff the best strategy appears to be publicity. look at the YouTube LUL worker last year. Where there is clear evidence that someone's behaviour is completely unsuitable to a customer facing role, through rudeness, htreats or aggressive behaviour the organisation is often shamed into takiing action when that evidence enters the public domain.

Personally I dislike public humiliation myself, even when the culprit deserves it, as you are just sinking to the same pond life level as they inhabit. I would definitely complain three times before I attempted to get audio and/or visual evidence of their inappropriate behaviour. I would also then offer to provide the evidence to the comapny concerned before going public. If they have still taken no action, or the member of staff remains as obstructive, they have had their chance and it's time for Twitter, YouTube, the BBC and everyone else!
 
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