Livery under Great British Railways

[sprinterguy]

You are aware we are talking in Speculative Discussion right, pointless imagining is kind of the point of this part of the forum. That being said it being clear how Labour's devolution plans could change the planned structure and operations of the GBR is the reason why I did not talk about local trains yesterday, there are too many possibilities to be able to make a succinct point while also talking about local trains.

Speculative discussion can still be, and leads to more productive discussion when, grounded in reality. It can be a consideration of what realistically could be, not a pointless imagining of what probably won't.

I was referring to this post quoted below which seems quite advanced, does it not?:

As now noted above, it's purely speculative; there's nothing on the website that suggests any thought towards a livery. GBR have got a long way to go to establish themselves yet before they start to consider what colours the trains might one day be painted.

 

[JLH4AC]

i.e., a proportion of the fleet in the PTE liveries, and then the rest in a generic Northern livery? In which case what does having the PTE liveries achieve given the branding will be very inconsistent and will often appear out-of-area?

It is a visible symbol that the local authorities are funding local rail service which can help build public trust in local transport organisations, and local authorities may be more willing to fund local transport if they get to put their name on it. Do the area-specific branded trains (Southern (Govia Thameslink), Great Northern, London Northwestern Railway, West Midlands Railway, and Metrotrain (Northern)) within operators currently being sent out-of-area really happen enough that it would be such a notable concern in the future?

So who would take control of the Harrogate line - NY or WY? The Penistone line - WY or SY? etc.

That would be decided through an agreement between GBR, the central government and all the combined authorities that have a stake in Yorkshire's local rail services. As the lines will remain part of GBR network nothing is stopping the three combined authorities from coming to an agreement to have overlapping networks.

Speculative discussion can still be, and leads to more productive discussion when, grounded in reality. It can be a consideration of what realistically could be, not a pointless imagining of what will never be.

Speculative discussion can lead to a more reasoned discussion grounded in the facts, but a lot of the discussions especially regarding things that are yet to happen are mostly pointless imaging, most of the time all we are doing in this part of the forum is sharing our views with some facts which throw in for fun.

 

[HSTEd]

Personally I feel that "less is more" in this regard.

I like the modern GWR green livery for this reason.
I think we should restrain ourselves from pointless flourishes that are likely to see dated in the long run, or which will display large amounts of dirt.

If you wish differentiation you could use different colours for different service groups, but I feel dark block colours would be the best bet.
What colour you use for the doors would be up for debate, but I believe GWR uses grey.

 

[WAB]

It is a visible symbol that the local authorities are funding local rail service which can help build public trust in local transport organisations, and local authorities may be more willing to fund local transport if they get to put their name on it. Do the area-specific branded trains (Southern (Govia Thameslink), Great Northern, London Northwestern Railway, West Midlands Railway, and Metrotrain (Northern)) within operators currently being sent out-of-area really happen enough that it would be such a notable concern in the future.

LNR: the 730s in WM livery operate out of Euston for now
Metrotrain:I am not aware that any units are still in this livery
Southern: GatEx 387s are used on some Southern services
Great Northern: GatEx 387s are used on some GN services

What's more is that the GN/GatEx/Southern operational split is very longstanding and the operations are discrete from each other. Completely unlike Northern (within the confines of the East side at any rate).

That would be decided through an agreement between GBR, the central government and all the combined authorities that have a stake in Yorkshire's local rail services. As the lines will remain part of GBR network nothing is stopping the three combined authorities from coming to an agreement to have overlapping networks.

Overlapping in what way? How do you propose to divide up the services?

And if you're expecting the Yorkshire Combined Authorities to play nicely, you may be in for a long wait...

 

[Russel]

I support the Union Jack ones if ScotRail can do it any shouldn't we

The difference is the Scotrail livery is subtle and tasteful, sticking a Union Jack on something usually just looks tacky.

 

[JLH4AC]

Overlapping in what way? How do you propose to divide up the services?

And if you're expecting the Yorkshire Combined Authorities to play nicely, you may be in for a long wait...

Again that would be up to the Yorkshire Combined Authorities to come to an agreement on, the two possibilities I can think of off the top of my head are either trains run across county borders only to the first suitable interchange station or they manage an even share of service on the shared lines. My actual proposal for Yorkshire local service assuming that a single Yorkshire Combined Authority is not going to happen any time soon would be that they be operated as if they were any other Northern/North Eastern regional service.

I am well aware that getting all of the Yorkshire Combined Authorities to play nicely is problematic, but the management of the local rail services is unlikely to be handed over to the Combined Authorities without them reaching an agreement on the matter so the status quo of GBR managing the services will be maintained/restored if the Yorkshire Combined Authorities don't play nicely with each other.

 

[Leyland Bus]

I was referring to this post quoted below which seems quite advanced, does it not?:

I've looked at the Great British Railways Transition Team website.
Trains will appear in a dark blue, red and white livery, the proportions of which vary according to the service branding which I would designate as Intercity, Regional or Commuter.
Intercity trains will appear in a predominantly white livery with window bands in blue.
Regional trains will still be predominantly white, but have an additional blue band under the windows.
Commuter trains will be predominantly painted blue.
Contrast details for people with visual disabilities, door surrounds will be white, doors painted red. Yellow and red cantrail lines for 1st class and catering respectively, plus branding near doors applied.
Double arrow logos will appear on cab sides and cab ends. "Legal lettering" for concessions located in panel on bottom right side of carriages.
Additional branding alongside double arrow logos for sponsoring transport authority.

Is there a link to this?! I couldn't see it?

 

[gc4946]

Great British Railways Transition Team

The Great British Railways Transition Team (GBRTT) is working to deliver the most ambitious changes to our railway in a generation, in partnership with the government and the whole rail sector.

www.gbrtt.co.uk

The lengthy description was my speculation based on how a GBR livery could pan out based on the colours and logo on their website.
Nothing's been decided yet, sorry if it wasn't fully clear

 

[Bletchleyite]

The difference is the Scotrail livery is subtle and tasteful, sticking a Union Jack on something usually just looks tacky.

One of the favourite classic liveries on here seems to be Network SouthEast. That is in Union Flag colours.

The previous non Mainline Chiltern livery was too.

In short, it's almost certain the colours will be red, white and blue - but there's plenty tasteful that can be done with that.

 

[gc4946]

I think GBR will have a combination of red, white and blue.
However I'd doubt that'll be applied in the former Network SouthEast style.
More likely will be a variation of the British Airways scheme, using a base white colour, but differentiated colours for doors. https://www.norebbo.com/british-airways-livery/

 

[signed]

More likely will be a variation of the British Airways scheme, using a base white colour, but differentiated colours for doors. https://www.norebbo.com/british-airways-livery/

I hope not, the BA livery with the wobbly flag on the tail looks extremely tacky and just not clean

 

[gc4946]

I'd omit the stylised flag too

 

[Meerkat]

What we don't want is to stick with TOC branding - if we do the whole debacle of "that's not my TOC, not my problem" and "you can't use your ticket for this part of GBR on this GBR train even though yours was cancelled" nonsense persists.

I don’t see why it would persist if the ticketing regs say it doesn’t. Losing GWR would be madness.

How many TOCs are actually owned or operated by some kind of local business? Are SWR owned by a small family-run company from Hampshire, and their trains leased from a small Dorset-based leasing company?

That’s not really relevant - if you have a local branding you can create a local culture/loyalty of getting things done. State monopolies are a massive incitement to shrugging and blaming HQ/London etc.

it’s really depressing if the horrible station signing is a sign of things to come.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it’s really depressing if the horrible station signing is a sign of things to come.

I certainly think they should pay a decent marketing firm a decent sum to come up with a fairly timeless and high quality branding package, which I'd agree the Rail Alphabet 2 thing is not (not even the font to be honest).

The state can absolutely do this - for instance, I love the whole Transport for Wales branding package (aside from the bodge on the LHCS) - it just looks clean, fresh, modern and professional. By contrast the RA2 signage, aside from the white on black version at New St, just smacks of 1990s BR and its managed decline.

 

[Meerkat]

I certainly think they should pay a decent marketing firm a decent sum to come up with a fairly timeless and high quality branding package, which I'd agree the Rail Alphabet 2 thing is not (not even the font to be honest).

The state can absolutely do this - for instance, I love the whole Transport for Wales branding package (aside from the bodge on the LHCS) - it just looks clean, fresh, modern and professional. By contrast the RA2 signage, aside from the white on black version at New St, just smacks of 1990s BR and its managed decline.

Fair point on TfW‘s branding, but that is small fry compared to GBR, and ‘Wales’ is a brand that users associate with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair point on TfW‘s branding, but that is small fry compared to GBR, and ‘Wales’ is a brand that users associate with.

It is, but the basic principle - clean white, dark window band, bold colour highlight - works well and would for GBR as well. (And does for LNER too!)

Most notable is that unlike practically everything else in Wales it hasn't got dragons plastered haphazardly all over it.

 

[Sorcerer]

Red, white and blue would be the natural choice for GBR given that it's the colour of the namesake flag. I don't expect sectorisation, just a single unified livery, mostly with a white basis since that's easier to apply. That said, I personally would like to see a return of a Union Flag livery like we've seen on a promotional Heathrow Express train like below (obviously without the Vodafone logo). My only suggestion for changing it would be to not have the vertical parts of the flag on every coach but just the end ones, with the horizontal part extending all along the train beneath the black window bands. Would have to be adapted for different kinds of stock of course.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Would special liveries like 390119 (Pride train) and 390121 (climate train) be likely to remain?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think our general attitude to the flag in the UK means it's likely to appear. The colours are, though - I would be astonished if it didn't feature red, white and blue in some measure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Red, white and blue would be the natural choice for GBR given that it's the colour of the namesake flag. I don't expect sectorisation, just a single unified livery, mostly with a white basis since that's easier to apply. That said, I personally would like to see a return of a Union Flag livery like we've seen on a promotional Heathrow Express train like below (obviously without the Vodafone logo). My only suggestion for changing it would be to not have the vertical parts of the flag on every coach but just the end ones, with the horizontal part extending all along the train beneath the black window bands. Would have to be adapted for different kinds of stock of course.

Union Jackery is a bit of a problem.
HMG might want to promote it as a GB-wide symbol, but that doesn't work in Scotland and Wales (though TfW runs many trains in England).

GBR could be sectorised or regionalised, and either gives you a need for distinguishable brands.
Public service trains in France and Germany are full of regional symbols (Bayern, Aquitaine etc) and separate names (Metronom, Transilien, Leman Express).
Here it's either counties (see the county cricket club badges), or further back the English kingdoms (Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex, Anglia etc).

DfT has been very reluctant to change TOC boundaries, the last meaningful changes were by the SRA, inventing "Greater XYZ...", TSGN, Wales & Borders etc.
It also tried to have one TOC per London terminus as with GA and GWR, but never finished the job, and it never worked in Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds.
More recently it set out its branding stall with LNER and GWR, but they may not survive.
Avanti is linked with HS2, though it won't survive in that form - all that new Avanti branding will have been for nothing.

In BR, Regional Railways was at the bottom of the heap ("other provincial services"), with IC and NSE taking the lion's share of investment.
One thing privatisation has done is to lift the Regional TOCs into better parity with the big boys.
We don't want that reversed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GBR could be sectorised or regionalised, and either gives you a need for a distinguishable brand.
Trains in France and Germany are full of regional symbols (Bayern, Aquitaine etc) and separate names (Metronom etc).
We don't do regional symbols and flags, or even city emblems (there's Liverpool's liver bird and Manchester's bee, but not much else).

We actually do by a model very similar to Germany (except England). The equivalents of Bundeslaender are the home nations, i.e. England*, Scotland, Wales and NI. The Counties aren't equivalent - they're generally much smaller, for one - it's probably only "historic Yorkshire" that was comparable in size to a typical Bundesland.

* I know, it's an oddity in Government terms not having its own parliament.

 

[gc4946]

I'd brand "InterCity" on Class 8XX, Voyager, etc.
Sprinters, 17X and 19X would be branded "Regional" in bold, but in small text the area e.g. Regional Great Western, or Regional North East.
Logos for sponsoring combined transport authorities could be applied below the branded name(s).
Metro trains within London could be branded "London Metrorail" with possible sub-branding e.g. Thameslink.

 

[David M]

Would special liveries like 390119 (Pride train) and 390121 (climate train) be likely to remain?

Hope not.

 

[Electrostar387]

Would special liveries like 390119 (Pride train) and 390121 (climate train) be likely to remain?

Hopefully so - don’t see why GBR would be against either its own massively diverse workforce or encouraging people onto rail as a sensible environmental choice.

 

[whoosh]

I certainly think they should pay a decent marketing firm a decent sum to come up with a fairly timeless and high quality branding package, which I'd agree the Rail Alphabet 2 thing is not (not even the font to be honest).

The state can absolutely do this - for instance, I love the whole Transport for Wales branding package (aside from the bodge on the LHCS) - it just looks clean, fresh, modern and professional. By contrast the RA2 signage, aside from the white on black version at New St, just smacks of 1990s BR and its managed decline.

I think the idea of Rail Alphabet 2 is a good one. There's a couple of questionable pictograms such as the Borismaster bus, but overall it looks a good concept to me.
It's implementation, however, has been woeful. The Liverpool Street departure board being one example - it's just been slapped on with little thought as to the dimensions and how to make it look it's best.

Saatchi & Saatchi came up with the very successful Network South East back in the day.

Whilst there is discussion about bringing back liveries from the past might make them look 'dated', let's just point out the red white and blue of London Underground, and how that's been around since about 1990 and still looks good.

 

[JLH4AC]

Red, white and blue would be the natural choice for GBR given that it's the colour of the namesake flag. I don't expect sectorisation, just a single unified livery, mostly with a white basis since that's easier to apply. That said, I personally would like to see a return of a Union Flag livery like we've seen on a promotional Heathrow Express train like below (obviously without the Vodafone logo). My only suggestion for changing it would be to not have the vertical parts of the flag on every coach but just the end ones, with the horizontal part extending all along the train beneath the black window bands. Would have to be adapted for different kinds of stock of course.

A single unified livery would be a major move away from the regional identities that were promised under the Tories which to some could be seen as undermining Labour's promise to move power and influence away from Westminster.

I personally think that we should stay away from flag liveries as they rarely look as good as well designed national colours liveries (Even with flags that are as great as the Union Jack.), sticking the national flag on everything is often a byproduct of a toxic and shallow form of nationalism we should be moving away from, and we have many other national symbols that can be used to base liveries on.

I certainly think they should pay a decent marketing firm a decent sum to come up with a fairly timeless and high quality branding package, which I'd agree the Rail Alphabet 2 thing is not (not even the font to be honest).


The state can absolutely do this - for instance, I love the whole Transport for Wales branding package (aside from the bodge on the LHCS) - it just looks clean, fresh, modern and professional. By contrast the RA2 signage, aside from the white on black version at New St, just smacks of 1990s BR and its managed decline.

Or they could do what they did and just get Margaret Calvert who designed the timeless and high quality road signs alongside Jock Kinneir to redesign the Rail Alphabet (which they also designed.) typeface and pictograms to the modern age alongside two design consultancies. I doubt that most members of the public would look closely enough at the text on the signage to notice the minor differences in the English characters because they decided to use a different neo-grotesque sans-serif typeface thus it is the legibility of the front, not its aesthetic that matters the most.

Cymru Sans Transport is unlike to be timeless as stencilled letters rarely tend to stick around when brands decide to use them.

 

[Sorcerer]

A single unified livery would be a major move away from the regional identities that were promised under the Tories which to some could be seen as undermining Labour's promise to move power and influence away from Westminster.

I don't think most people would really think of it that way. But I do kind of see your points and I wouldn't oppose regional colours such as keeping Merseyrail's yellow. After all I don't see Scotrail's Saltire being given up any time soon.

 

[43096]

It is, but the basic principle - clean white, dark window band, bold colour highlight - works well and would for GBR as well. (And does for LNER too!)

Most notable is that unlike practically everything else in Wales it hasn't got dragons plastered haphazardly all over it.

I'd add that stripes work well on trains (see NSE, InterCity, CD, DB ICE etc) rather than diagonal lines which just don't work with the long thin object that is a train. So maybe a blue window band with red accent line below? Probably red doors for contrast and standardised colours to indicate first class (yellow), catering (red), PRM area (blue) and bike area (green).

Above all, keep it simple and paint it, not vinyl - paint also helps keep the designers under control as they can't use their crayons too much unlike with vinyl.

 

[irish_rail]

The flag will never form a basis for the GBR livery. For many reasons, but not least the fact it is made up of 3 different colours. That in itself won't work as a train livery, it would instantly smack of a nursery school design. There is a reason most train liveries past and present generally focus on two main colours, as two colours works, whereas 3 very different colours just looks a mess. Scotrail works because the flag is made up of 2 colours. A Union flag livery simply wouldn't, and I like to think, as a country we are now turning the corner away from the brexity, nationalistic, jingoistic days of the teens and early 20s.

 

[Meerkat]

sticking the national flag on everything is often a byproduct of a toxic and shallow form of nationalism we should be moving away from

But ‘normal’ people/users shying away from using the flag makes the situation worse - better for the normal folk to repossess the flags (as has been achieved quite a lot by the National sports teams).