Livery Overlap

[TheEdge]

This might be more suited to Preservation than here but if it needs to be moved then move it...

On the modern railway we are used to liveries and paintwork existing long after their operator has gone, such as CT has only just ceased to be, EWS is still common out there and so on.

My query relates to the situation after nationalisation and during BR's early days. How long did Big 4 liveries continue to exist after nationalisation. I imagine there was not a huge number of painters out on the night of Jan 1 1948 repainting everything in a night so how long did Big 4 liveries go around with BR logos on them? And are they any pictures of it?

Related points, how long did the the cycling lion and dartboard versions of the BR logo co-exist? And how long did it take for corporate blue to roll out properly?

 

[Pride Of Crewe]

I remember seeing a photo of a GWR 41xx tank with a BR number plate on the smoke box door and G W R on the tanks. I think it was in a copy of hornby magazine.

 

[WestCountry]

There's a pretty well-known picture of a Collett Goods still with the GWR lettering on its tender in 1965!

Some two-tone green 47s lasted into the mid/late 70s IIRC.

 

[Electrostar]

Just to add to The Edge's question, were all locomotives painted wartime black during the war? And once the war was over did the big four repaint them back into their respective company colours or were resources too scarce and the job of reprinting not carried out until British Railways was formed.

And picking up on WestCountry's point, after the BR double arrows were introduced were they added to any green diesels or electric blue electrics, or did application on happen after a repaint into Rail Blue? (Not including 'celebrity' repaints which became common in the 1980s). These days TOCS are keen to add their name to units irrespective of them carrying a previous operator's livery but I assume BR were more protective of their new brand.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

40 106 was never repainted into blue and was withdrawn in green in the mid 1980s wasn't it?

( Rumour has it, though, it was partly repainted in blue during its final works visit and then hastily put back into green ).

 

[yorksrob]

Is it just loco's you're interested in, because I think the big 4 liveries remained on units and carriages right up to the all over blue era. Southern Railway/Region Green succumbed in the mid 1960's and I presume the others (chocolate and cream etc) did as well.

 

[507 001]

Just to add to The Edge's question, were all locomotives painted wartime black during the war? And once the war was over did the big four repaint them back into their respective company colours or were resources too scarce and the job of reprinting not carried out until British Railways was formed.

And picking up on WestCountry's point, after the BR double arrows were introduced were they added to any green diesels or electric blue electrics, or did application on happen after a repaint into Rail Blue? (Not including 'celebrity' repaints which became common in the 1980s). These days TOCS are keen to add their name to units irrespective of them carrying a previous operator's livery but I assume BR were more protective of their new brand.

There were quite a few green diesels running round with BR arrows on them, as previously stated, right up to the mid-late 70s. Some even lasted long enough to receive TOPS numbering

 

[46223]

The cycling lion BR logo was introduced round about 1952 and the dartboard version in 1956/7. One or two locos were still running around with the cycling lion version in the 1960s.
I've seen photos taken in the early 1950s of ex LMS locos with BR smokebox and cabside
numbers but with L M S still on the tender.

 

[12CSVT]

D3170 (08105) was believed to be the last class 08 in black livery (until around 1970).
By this time repaints into BR blue were under way so this loco never appeared in green.

 

[D6975]

40 106 was never repainted into blue and was withdrawn in green in the mid 1980s wasn't it?

( Rumour has it, though, it was partly repainted in blue during its final works visit and then hastily put back into green ).

More than rumour.
Blue paint was discovered when 40106 was being given a rub down for a repaint (preserved days). It was reported in the Railway mags at the time.

 

[455driver]

More than rumour.
Blue paint was discovered when 40106 was being given a rub down for a repaint (preserved days). It was reported in the Railway mags at the time.

It is well known that it was painted in blue undercoat at the time, the mystery was whether any blue topcoat was applied or did they just put the green topcoat on the blue undercoat?

 

[Bevan Price]

Just to add to The Edge's question, were all locomotives painted wartime black during the war? And once the war was over did the big four repaint them back into their respective company colours or were resources too scarce and the job of reprinting not carried out until British Railways was formed.

.

According to the RCTS history of the LMS Jubilees, most wartime repaints would be in wartime black - but some locos remained in (doubtless increasingly dirty) LMS red throughout the war until BR days.

 

[Taunton]

1948 before my time! But it seems that old liveries disappeared quite quickly. Notably in those days regular works visits for overhaul (and painting) were much more frequent than recent times, plus the quality of paint didn't last anyway compared to more recently. There seemed little or nothing left of the old livery 10 years later. The Southern Region had a habit of only doing partial repaints/touching up of carriages as necessary, euphemistically called 'revarnishing', but as the green colour stayed the same on many vehicles it was difficult to spot the old paint. Officially the Southern was meant to change to the 'blood and custard' on non-electric stock, on repaint, but as they said they were not repainting, only varnishing, much stayed green until about 1957 when they were officially allowed to use green again.

The Western changed over from chocolate and cream to 'blood and custard', although it is of course difficult to tell on black/white photos of the period, then in 1957 they too were allowed to go back to chocolate and cream just on named expresses, whereupon there was an outburst of newly named trains on the Western, plus large quantities of additional spare vehicles for these, and a whole lot of other justifications found, even the auto-trailers used with 14xx tanks were allowed. After all this effort they gave up quite quickly, and most had gone back to maroon before the blue and grey came along.

Loco numbers were changed quite quickly after 1948 once the scheme was agreed - painters did the job at depots. GWR locos with brass numbers were exempt from this, of course, but got LMS-style smokebox plates instead of painted numbers on the front buffer.

The early 1950s 'blood and custard' similarly only lasted in use a few years after it was discontinued.

The BR blue changeover was much more longwinded and I recall a tatty football excursion set in Glasgow still in maroon about 1974, maybe 10 years after the change.